Messages

1

General Discussions / Re: Original Sanctuary, Masjid al-Haram and the Qibla Change

« on: January 11, 2012, 11:31:55 AM »

My opinion:-

52:1 - Tur - It is the hallow ground where Prophet Moses was summoned by GOD - 25:22-30. This verses are connected to verses 95:2-3.
52:2-3 And the book written on parchment unfolded - These verses are connected to 53:13 - The second decent of Jibril and 75:17 - Compilation of the Quran and 25:32 - Arrange in a specific sequence.
52: By the House most frequented.
These verses tell us that the Quran was handed over to the Prophet Muhammad at the Tur juxtapose to the House after it was compiled and arrange in a specific sequence.
52:6-7 - the knowledge that is within the Quran.

There are lots similiraties between Prophet Muhammad and Prophet Moses. Both were given Furqan, 
Prophet Muhammad - 02:185
Prophet Moses         - 02:53 & 21:48
the only difference is that GOD spoke to Prophet Moses direct - 04:164.

Dear brother Saleh,

Did you answered my simple question: How verse 52:2-3, 52:5 and 52:6 are connected to verse 52:4?

Regards,

Wazir

2

General Discussions / Re: Original Sanctuary, Masjid al-Haram and the Qibla Change

« on: January 11, 2012, 11:26:46 AM »

tell me where you see the holes.

Dear Sister Chadiga,

First answer my questions, then I will show you holes of theory. Once you will try to answer my questions, most probably you  will notice a few holes.

Regards,

Wazir

3

General Discussions / Re: Original Sanctuary, Masjid al-Haram and the Qibla Change

« on: January 08, 2012, 11:57:26 PM »

Dear sister Chadiga,


First, let me thank you for revealing your identity as proponent of theory of Original House at Jabal al Lawz, Madyan.

Second, when you proposed the theory, you should answer legitimate questions of forum members, because, many people visit this forum to seek truth. So, to confuse them with theory and not answering their questions goes against the purpose of the forum.

So, if you still believe in your theory, you should provide rational bases for the belief and answer the questions cited in my previous post.

Third,  you quoted translation of verse 21:71 in your article as under:

'œ 21.71 And we delivered him (speaking of Abraham) and Lot to the land which we have blessed for the
Abraham and Lot took refuge in the blessed land Bakka. In the land of Midian.'

Will you explain how you arrive to words 'œBakka. In the land of Midian' in your translation? (I have not seen these words in this verse in any translation).

I am providing every word of verse with its translation, for ready reference, for you and for forum members, below:

21:71:1 / wanajjaynāhu /And We delivered him
21:71:2 / walūṭan / and Lut
21:71:3 / ilā / to
21:71:4 / l-arḍi / the land
21:71:5 / allatī / which
21:71:6 / bāraknā / We (had) blessed
21:71:7 / fīhā / [in it]
21:71:8 / lil'ʿālamīna / for the worlds.
(Source: http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=21&verse=71)

So, will you provide bases and authority to add words in verse to prove your theory?

I see many holes in your theory, but at present I pointed out main points. So, I hope you will address these questions.

I understand your personal circumstances, so take your time to reply. I am not in hurry.

Regards,

Wazir

4

General Discussions / Re: Original Sanctuary, Masjid al-Haram and the Qibla Change

« on: January 07, 2012, 11:21:10 AM »

1. ...., and yes, the Quranic verses [52:1-4] is connected. ......

2. If you could go into the articles that Bro Joseph set up - Prophet Abraham Original Sanctuary - At Bakkah or Makkah - [8]

....., where ever we are but where are we to face once we are there?  Are we suppose to face the ka'ba and bow and prostrate it? There is an article with regards to the 'Hateem' and its facing Jabl AlAwz? Can you explain that?

Dear Brother Saleh,

1). I agree with you that each sura and verse are connected, but it does not mean that we can connect any two verses to prove our point. So, let me elaborate regarding point # 1.

Verse 52:1, Verse 52:2-3, Verse 52:4, Verse 52:5 and Verse 52:6 are independent to each other and connected to verses 52:7 and 52:7 onward independently and collectively, but these verses are not inter connected.  If you believe that verse 52:1 and verse 52:4 are connected, then please explain how verse 52:2-3, 52:5 and 52:6 are connected to verse 52:4?

2) In article "PROPHET ABRAHAM'S (pbuh) ORIGINAL SANCTUARY - AT MAKKAH (MECCA) OR BAKKAH (BACA)?" Brother Joseph made argument that "(3) NO HEBREW PROPHET HAS BEEN KNOWN TO PERFORM PILGRIMAGE AT MAKKAH".

So, I am putting up same argument to you. In light of verse 3:97, can you present any evidence to prove that  any Hebrew Prophets or their followers ever did pilgrimage in Bakkah, Madyan, NW Arabia? and do you have any evidence to prove that Bakkah was located there?

For final point, I am reproducing my comments, I made on November 26, 2011 above, to the proponents of idea that  Bakkah was located at Jabal al-Lawz, Madyan, NW Arabia.
---------------------------------
Quote from analysis:

The scholars give us the opinion that  'Hateem ' was initially part of the main building, and praying inside  'Hateem ' is regarded as praying inside Kaa 'ba itself.” Moreover, in fig 2 the direction of prayer is mentioned.

If we accept this premise, logical questions are:
1) Do you think person standing in semi-circle of  'Hateem ' pray facing another direction while keeping his back towards Kaa 'ba?
2) While praying in vicinity of Kaa 'ba who will pray in another direction?
3) If one is praying in another direction, then, why would he come near Kaa 'ba in first place?

Other questions are:
1) Is it appropriate to use current map to understand situation of 7th century or prior to that?
2) Is there any evidence suggesting that people lived in Makkah used to pray in direction of Jabl Al Awz?
3) Is there any evidence suggesting that people of Book ever prayed in direction of Jabl Al Awz ?
4) What is significance of alignment line you drawn in pictures? There can be many places in world aligning with Kaa 'ba. So, what it proves?

I hope that the person (as name has been withheld) who did analysis and/ or advocating that  Jabl Al Awz was a original Masjid Al Haram will answer above cited questions.

Thanks in advance.
--------------------------------------------------------
So, will you please answer my above questions as you wrote that "It is unequovical that the first House built by Prophet Abraham and his son in Bakkah, Madyan,NW Arabia, was the Masjidil Aqsa where propbaly all the prophets were summoned during their ministries including the Last Prophet - Q-17:01 & 53:01-18."  ?

regards,

Wazir

5

General Discussions / Re: Original Sanctuary, Masjid al-Haram and the Qibla Change

« on: January 03, 2012, 08:35:58 AM »

I found it rational to say that the first House built by Prophet Abraham and his son in Bakkah could be the Masjidil Aqsa [17:1].

During the time of the Prophet, Jerusalem were flourishing with peoples comprising of the people of the book. As such it cannot be at Jerusalem.

Q-52:01-04, Tell us that the Tur is asociated with the House. Since there are only two sanctuaries mentioned in the Quran:
Thus the House mentioned in 52:04  can only be the one that was built by Prophet Abraham in Bakkah, Madyan.

It is unequovical that the first House built by Prophet Abraham and his son in Bakkah, Madyan,NW Arabia, was the Masjidil Aqsa where propbaly all the prophets were summoned during their ministries including the Last Prophet - Q-17:01 & 53:01-18.

Salam

Dear Brother Saleh,

Firstly, it seems to me that your main argument is based on verse 52:1-4. But, there is no connection between verse 52:1 and 52:4. Both are independent statement.

Second, Look at verse 3:97
Feehi ayatun bayyinatun maqamu ibraheema waman dakhalahu kana aminan walillahi AAala alnnasi hijju albayti mani istataAAa ilayhi sabeelan
In it are Signs Manifest; (for example), the Station of Abraham; whoever enters it attains security; Pilgrimage thereto is a duty men owe to Allah,- those who can afford the journey, (Yusuf Ali)

Now, as per verse 3:97, Pilgrimage was declared duty on men by Allah.
So, if you argue that Masjidil Aqsa, Bakkah, Madyan,NW Arabia was First House of Allah built by Prophet Abraham; then we have to believe that Allah gave site to Prophet Abraham(22:26), ordained Hajj and still nobody visited it in known history and nobody visits it. How is this possible? Will you explain please? Please remember Quran assert that Allah is All-Mighty, All-Knowing.

Mark the contrast: People were coming to Makkah for pilgrimage of Cuboid and idols installed in it before Prophet Muhammad and till date people go there for pilgrimage.

Regards,

Wazir

6

General Discussions / Re: Original Sanctuary, Masjid al-Haram and the Qibla Change

« on: November 26, 2011, 12:05:59 PM »

BY MEMBER: Name Withheld


WHERE WAS THE OLD QIBLAH BEFORE MASJID AL-HARAAM IN MAKKAH?


The significance of Jabal al-Lawz - Member analysis

http://quransmessage.com/forum/members/email2/qiblah.htm

Quote from analysis:

'The scholars give us the opinion that 'Hateem' was initially part of the main building, and praying inside 'Hateem' is regarded as praying inside Kaa'ba itself.' Moreover, in fig 2 the direction of prayer is mentioned.

If we accept this premise, logical questions are:
1) Do you think person standing in semi-circle of 'Hateem' pray facing another direction while keeping his back towards Kaa'ba?
2) While praying in vicinity of Kaa'ba who will pray in another direction?
3) If one is praying in another direction, then, why would he come near Kaa'ba in first place?

Other questions are:
1) Is it appropriate to use current map to understand situation of 7th century or prior to that?
2) Is there any evidence suggesting that people lived in Makkah used to pray in direction of Jabl Al Awz?
3) Is there any evidence suggesting that people of Book ever prayed in direction of Jabl Al Awz ?
4) What is significance of alignment line you drawn in pictures? There can be many places in world aligning with Kaa'ba. So, what it proves?

I hope that the person (as name has been withheld) who did analysis and/ or advocating that  Jabl Al Awz was a original Masjid Al Haram will answer above cited questions.

Thanks in advance.

7

General Discussions / Re: Original Sanctuary, Masjid al-Haram and the Qibla Change

« on: November 26, 2011, 11:11:07 AM »

You say on one hand that you have not analyzed whether Bekka and Mecca are the same place but in c) and) assoziierst you immediately  the Kaaba with  Mecca. The Kaaba is in the Koran clearly associated with the pilgrimage. Why do we rely entirely on this issue automatically to the secondary sources, if Allah in the Koran does not? I want by my side I just do not stiffen, as both possibilities are equally possible.

Quote from the post of Joseph Islam at Reply #7 on: November 20, 2011, 05:52:46 AM

In my opinion:

     (a) The original sanctuary built by Prophet Abraham (ancient house) was at Bakkah not Makkah. These are two different locations [1]
    (b) The Ka'aba is associated with the Sacred Mosque (Masjid al-Haram) and is in Makkah. [2]

However, I have also argued in section (-8-) of my article [1] below that:

The Ka'aba was made a place of monotheistic worship and ancient Abrahamic rites as explained in detail by the Quran were reinstituted at the Ka'aba (Makkah today). So the Hajj today at Makkah is correct and supported by the Quran in my personal opinion. Of course, there are practices that have been introduced and added to the Hajj today which I find no support for in the Quran. However, I have discussed those comprehensively in my Hajj related article [3] and with connected articles.
--------------------------------------------

I hope this will answer your question.

Wazir

8

General Discussions / Re: Original Sanctuary, Masjid al-Haram and the Qibla Change

« on: November 26, 2011, 10:57:53 AM »

Please see my support for the following statement:

"The original Masjid al Haram was in Makkah (My position and the traditional position)"


IS MAKKAH THE ORIGINAL LOCATION FOR THE MASJID AL-HARAM?
http://quransmessage.com/articles/original%20sanctuary%20FM3.htm

When we call it "The Original Masjid al Haram", Why we call it original? What was significance of "Masjid al Haram" before it declared as Qibla in verses 2:142-146? Who built it?

Will you shed some light on these questions?

9

General Discussions / Re: Original Sanctuary, Masjid al-Haram and the Qibla Change

« on: November 24, 2011, 12:02:24 AM »

Response to the statement of Brother wazir,
1.Woher you take security that Abraham and Ishmael built the house in Mecca? From the secondary sources of Islam, the Qur'an mentions this were not
Second If the first and the last Quibla Mecca was just, then why does God say "I'll now assign a Quibla, with which you will surely be satisfied ..." which implies that the latter is not the same as the first. This may well be possible, for there is nowhere to point out that Quibla were 1 and 3 have the same ...[/color]

1. There is no doubt that original House was built by Abraham PBUH and Ishmael PBUH, but the issue of its location is in debate. In my analysis, contention of the article is not where House was built? I have not analysed the issue of whether Makkah and Bakkah are same place or not. So, at this stage, you can ignore this argument which is one of the many arguments in the analysis.

2. Another question is why does God say "I'll now assign a Quibla, with which you will surely be satisfied ..." . In other word, what were reasons which made the declaration of Qibla necessary?

These reasons are mentioned in verse 2:143 as follow:

a) Verse 2:143 (Part): Thus, have We made of you an Ummat justly balanced, that ye might be witnesses over the nations, and the Messenger a witness over yourselves; In other words, Muslims were assigned responsibilty to vouchsafe over other nations and the Messenger was assigned responsibility to vouchsafe over Muslims, hence it became necessary to declare one universal Qibla for mankind which is done in this verse.

b)Verse 2:143 (Part): only to test those who followed the Messenger from those who would turn on their heels (From the Faith). In other words, to test followers who might have different directions of Qibla, but now after this declaration it become necessary for all to follow this Qibla as their Qibla. And that is why it was great dicision for people who were following other direction. (2:143 part: Indeed it was (A change) momentous, except to those guided by Allah. And never would Allah Make your faith of no effect)

Once formal declaration of Qibla is made, the next logical step is to order everyone to turn their faces to this Qibla which is mentioned in verse 2:144.

Verse 2:145 clearly warns believers not to compromise on issue of Qibla.

c) Before declaration of Ka'ba as universal Qibla, It might be a Qibla for Prophet SAW, his followers, his community and pagans. So, declaration of Ka'ba in Makkah as univesal Qibla definately please the Messenger as he used to consider it a Qibla.

d) There is no verse in Quran which instructed Prophet SAW to follow other Qibla before declaration of Ka'ba as universal Qibla for mankind.

I hope, this explanation will address your questions.

10

Discussions / "Ahadees e Qudsi" a Revelation or Secondary Source?

« on: November 17, 2011, 09:07:00 AM »

Is  "Ahadees e Qudsi" a Revelation" or Secondary Source?

I would like to know true status of "Ahadees e Qudsi" as many believe that it is a separate collection of Revelation.