Messages

Isn't there a verse in Quran about a nation that seems to be promoting peace but actually they are not? Thank you for your help

And after I read the article by brother Joseph on how the term 'muslim' is 'hijacked', ( http://quransmessage.com/articles/term%20muslim%20hijacked%20FM3.htm ) the more I connect the dots that everyone who believe in God and the revealed words, in the history of previous scriptures are considered 'muslims' (in Quran perspective).

This actually goes well with the message of early church fathers, as understood in my previous post: the gentiles can be 'muslim', they don't have to be a Jew-born to follow Jesus, which is to follow the commandments from God, the Law of Moses/Torah.

[On Jerusalem Council, Acts 15:19-22.]

Paul and early Jesus followers did not preach Trinity... They are Jews, and it is to them that God can not be a man. Trinity emerged centuries after them.

On Jerusalem Council, Acts 15:19-22.

And as for the four laws for the gentiles: "Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood."

This verse is interestingly followed by:

"For [the law of] Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath."

This said that Torah is to be preached to every city, and read in the synagogues every Sabbath, just like in the early time of Torah, to be learned, together

I can't help but to conclude that they were not trying to erase the law. They were against the proselytizing ritual of the Pharisee; circumcision. Jews today do have this set of processes if one wants to be a part of the Jewish community.

Maybe just like how modern Christian use baptism as ritual of becoming a member, or syahadah in front of two witnesses in Islam tradition. They were against circumcision as a mark of proselytizing. Early church fathers said, the Law of Moses will be read every Sabbath, not forced in a day. For even Israel did not uphold Torah in one day straight. This is that yoke that should be shared together, and after Christ, you are under law not as a law, but law as a grace.

There are Messianic Jews, who hold that interpretation to Jerusalem Council found in Acts 15.

Nowadays, we see that everyone can put any belief or ideology into scriptures, it's always best to keep learning, especially to understand the message of the scriptures and their historical context..

Salam,
Alta

Hello Daniel,

The Tauhid Christian ones who have broken away from orthodox Christianity and considered a sect, are they namely the unitarian or jehovah witness? Do these sects have different view of what it actually means by messiah?

Anyway, shaking the old traditions in churches is a very hard thing to do. Especially because religion has one of its feet settled deep in politics and economy. I am thinking about the Vatican, of course..

I am only starting to read the interesting pdf I received about Christology. Thank you for the share.

Peace out

Hello Daniel,

I have sent you an email. Did you get it? As for the bible verses, yes, it probably should not be discussed much here. But there is a section for bible in this forum, probably I should post it there?

Now I can see the relation, there are verses in the Quran about Isa that seem to 'contradict' each other in western church point view. I was in other discussion room days ago, a conversation happened like this:

X: Jesus is called the word of God and the spirit of God in the Quran.
Y: You know in the John gospel the argument used for the 'divinity' of Isa is the one about the word of God.
X: Hmm, I don't know about that...

God bless us all.

Dear Abbsrayray,

My home internet is no good for video streaming, so I will bookmarked it for the time when I get better connection like wifi. Thank you for your sharing

Sorry, double posting.

[human Jesus is separated]

Okay, I have been reading some new things...

The Church of East, held a Nestorian belief, that human Jesus is separated from the spirit of God, the Logos, the Word... Right?
It challenged the title given to Mary by the west church, Theotokos (Mother of God), rather calling her Christotokos (Mother of Christ).

That Christ is fully human, the Quran agrees.

Yet..

3:45 O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah.

19:21 He said: "So (it will be): Thy Lord saith, 'that is easy for Me: and (We wish) to appoint him as a Sign unto men and a Mercy from Us': It is a matter (so) decreed."

4:171 O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His messengers. Say not "Trinity": desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah: Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth.

5:75 Christ the son of Mary was no more than a messenger; many were the messengers that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to eat their (daily) food.

19:30 He said: "I am indeed a servant of Allah: He hath given me revelation and made me a prophet."

The Quran doesn't seem to 'oppose' the Nestorian view. I sort of get it.

It reminds me also to the tangled web of Trinity: if Jesus is God, we were created by Jesus.
The Bible never stated that Jesus created the universe. But God created through His Word. I came across a non-Trinitarian site, though I still don't understand what is the web owner view about who is Jesus and his nature, he made many interesting points. If anyone wants, I can give the link later. These quote of an article, contrasting KJV translation with what the actual Greek texts actually mean.

    1. John 1:3

        The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. (KJV).

        The same was in the beginning with God. All things came to exist through (dia) the same and without the same not one thing came to exist that exists.

    2. 1 Corinthians 8:6

        But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. (KJV)

        But to us there is but one God, the Father, out of whom are all things, and we of him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through (dia) whom are all things, and we through (dia) him.

    3. Ephesians

        And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ. (KJV)

        And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things through (dia) Jesus Christ. (some manuscripts also do not contain the phrase "through Jesus Christ" at all).

    4. Colossians 1:16

        For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him. And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.(KJV).

        For in (en) him all things were created, things in heaven and upon earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or lordships or rulers or authorities; all things were created through him and unto1 (eis) him. And he is before all things, and in (en) him all things subsist.

    5. Hebrews 1:2

        God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds. (KJV)

        God, who in many places and in divers manners spoke in time past to the fathers in (en) the prophets, has in these last days spoken unto us in (en) a Son, whom he set heir of all things, through (dia) whom also he made the ages.

---

One more though, are you saying that Jesus opened the grace and faith to God of Israel to the gentiles, and Muhammad provided the revelation of the law? Or that Muhammad was appointed to correct and to give gentile law?

For Jesus made some of the unlawful to be lawful (the gentiles were deemed unclean to be around with by the Jews)

3:50 (I have come to you), to attest the Law which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was (Before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear Allah, and obey me.

Thank you for your insights! Do you have anymore to share about this issue?

Thank you for sharing the verse 2:138. I did not know of this. I found an explanation in the web saying.

'Of what use is this formal baptism? What really is worth doing is to adopt the colour of God, and it is not water that gives one this colour but actual service and devotion to God.'

But what about John/Yahya, didn't he baptize?

So, for you Jesus is a mere prophet, or did he some person more exalted? This messiah, what did he really do?

It is also good, I think, to explain a brief history about Medina Charter and The Covenant of the Prophet Muhammad with the Monks of Mount Sinai...

Many people are opposed to a religion not because the religion, but because the behavior of those practicing the religion. But I always try to tell myself, a quote that was introduced by a friend:

"Get to know the truth, then you would know the people of truth.
Truth is not measured by its men, but men are measured by their truth."
- Ali bin Abi Thalib

[should not destroy any tree, any innocent, children, women, and elderly]

I was also struggling about the issue of 'immoral sexuality' and the image of 'war prophet'. It took me about four months to understand.

What made me understand Prophet's marriage to Aisha, even from secondary sources, is the accepted fact that Prophet Muhammad remained monogamous with his older wife (who was a widow) up until her death.

His wives after the first one were mostly widows, and the marriages were done for cementing relationship between tribes, taking care of friend's widow, freeing war hostage (elevating her status); for the sake of the early Islam community. Aisha was the only virgin he married, and she was his best friend's daughter. If it was a controversial thing, the disbelievers would have criticized that marriage and used it against Muhammad, but they did not. Thus, it was acceptable.

Arabs at that time did not celebrate birthday, it was not the culture. The eligibility of a marriage in the culture was puberty, not the age. I think the very climate and condition of the area plus the body figure of Arabs in general should also be taken into consideration, it probably have something to do with body development.

Aisha later became a prominent Islamic leader, despite being a woman. And even from the Hadith, she is portrayed as a very awesome woman. What came in my mind, is the one that tells her having a running race with Muhammad. Although there are also unnecessary silly detailed one saying that Aisha and Muhammad liked to have a bath in the same place (or something like that). 

It is probably good to tell your respective Christian fellows that our people long ago did marry young too. And even in many countries, and also states in the U.S., the marriage age is as low as teens. It is also good I think, to look back into the Old Testament, maybe they haven't read about the wars in the name of God of Israel? Or polygamy existing in the Bible? King Solomon did have multiple wives and concubines. Help them to understand the context of the Middle Eastern of that time. I have also read a Bible Commentary saying that Joseph was around 90 years old and Mary was in her teens, when they were married.

Introducing Judaism set of beliefs also help! It is very similar to Islam. Well, of course it is.

As for the image of 'war prophet', the so called wars were done also for the sake of Islam. The plurality value of Islam back in that day was that 'to you my religion, to me mine'. The spirit of Islam was not to convert all of the pagans. But if a certain people did not want to convert, they also should not disturb and persecute the Muslims.

Remind your friends that even Moses ordered the killing of a pagan community, it is there in the Old Testament.

One good saying attributed to the war moral in Islam is that when a war is done, the army should not destroy any tree, any innocent, children, women, and elderly. A fight in the name of Islam should be done as a defensive one, not as an offensive one.

About Hadith, well, I see Muhammad as a man, so he would have a personality, he would have a preference of like and dislikes. What happened, I think, was that people were so obsessed in trivial details regarding the Prophets like/dislike and the history of his personal life, something that is not relevant to his tasks: delivering the message of Quran and establishing Islamic community. This is good thing to be simply explained too. And also the way Hadith were transmitted...

It is clear that the heritage of Islam is from the Jerusalem "Ummah". You can synchronize the message of Muhammad with that of Jesus brother, James, who was the head of the Jerusalem believers. "Faith without works is dead." As far as synchronizing the Qur'an to the Jesus of the Bible, the more important question is to which people? ..... those of Jerusalem or those of Rome? As Jesus was to James and the "Hawariyuun" in Jerusalem, Jesus was to Muhammad. In other words, if you took away all the writings of Paul to Roman Empire Gentiles, what does the Jesus you are left with look like? This is the challenge for Islam.

Jesus who was born as a miracle, healed people, forgiving sins, preached against the tradition of men practiced by the Jews, reforming the wrongs in society, his sermon in the mount, his saying that he didn't came to abolish the law, knowing that he will be killed but still submitting to the will of God, got crucified, resurrected after three days...telling his disciples to preach to the 'nations', baptizing people in the name of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit... being called 'Lord', 'Son of God', and.. Messiah.

Hello Duster,

I agree with your remark. As for email, I was about to ask some stuffs regarding our country, I don't know if that would be appropriate to be laid out here. But yes, general discussions however should be discussed in open.


To Daniel,

How do you reconcile the church doctrine about Isa and his death in the light of Quran? I have been thinking about a verse in Quran: Isa similitude is of Adam. That verse to me bears a deeper meaning than just being created by miracle (Isa and Adam). And I have stumbled on a theory, the Adam Christology, proposing that Isa is the last Adam, his resurrection was the first to be done, and it is done so that we can be resurrected after him. Does this view have any place in the continuation of Torah?

I also found an opinion that the NT, the gospels, should actually be put under the Torah (just like Talmud, etc), not as substitute.

Thank you

Dear Daniel,

Is it possible to contact you out of this forum?

Thank you
Salam

Dear Ismail,

That is true. It simply stated that it is not required by God, even in a priestly life, because not everyone has the ability to live a monastic life. And if one wants to live such an ascetic life, it is not forbidden too, because living in a simple life worshiping God makes people humble.
I am just wondering, whether the Quran advanced the Protestant Reformation by about 700 years..

Regards
Alta Marea