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Shalom/peace Tausif Ahmed ... Does br. Joseph's article help >>>>? http://quransmessage.com/articles/inspiration%20FM3.htm

Here is another link:

http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=2708.msg13913#msg13913

Peace / Shalom Ahmed40....brother Joseph has made a similar point all along in many posts ...articles ....


"It is often intimated that if the Ahadith corpus is unreliable, how can one then trust the meanings of the words of Arabic that have reached us by the same 'men' that gave us the Ahadith literature?

This remains an unwarranted question and such a premise for argument leads to a gross error in approach.

The question of the authenticity of the Ahadith corpus IS NOT founded on the unreliability of the CLASSICAL ARABIC LANGUAGE in which it is transmitted. Rather, it is founded on questionable content (matn) and transmission. The mere fact that the veracity of a particular hadith can be 'questioned' is PROOF that the ancient Arabic language in which the Ahadith is transmitted is accepted as RELIABLE.

One cannot reject a particular hadith if the language that underpins it, remains questionable. 

Therefore, the rejection of a particular hadith only LEGITIMISES the general knowledge of the classical Arabic language in which the Hadith was transmitted.

Subsequently, the reliability of the Ahadith corpus and lexicons as a source to understand classical Arabic language has never been in doubt.

Lexicographers may advance different shades of meanings and discuss words but to INVENT NEW MEANINGS for Arabic words which were never understood by ANYONE remotely familiar with Arabic is a baseless assertion and surpasses the thresholds of incredulity."

https://m.facebook.com/joseph.a.islam/posts/164704896999979

What an awesome and informative thread !!

[5:77-86, 2:38-39]

I already shared my view regarding the verses like 2:62, 5:69 etc.

And I suggest you to read the verses 5:77-86, 2:38-39 etc. if you are still in doubt.

Doubt of what? What do the verses you give prove?

2:106
"We do not abrogate/abolish/erase/nullify from a sign/verse/evidence, or We make it forgotten, (except that) We
come/bring with better than it, or similar/equal/alike to it. Do you not know that God (is) on every thing powerful/capable."

(also see 2:105)

Yes and? Where does it say in these verses that the whole Torah has been nullified for the Jews??? Some verses or signs may be superseded for believers ....yes ... for example ... we don't have to follow the complicated food laws of the Jews... They still have to follow it .... Why don't you read verse verse 16:118 carefully to clear your doubt and stop worrying about other people's doubt?

"And to those who are Jews We have prohibited that which We related to you before. And We did not wrong them [thereby], but they were wronging themselves." 16:118


See - Allah has forbidden something for them but not for believers? Get it now? Will you listen or simply reject this as well?

Therefore, it doesn't matter for me, whether you believe or not. Just shared my thoughts.

Please take my brotherly advice ... please revisit your arguments and beliefs ....

[completely]

RESPONSE 1:

As referenced earlier, in verse (5:48), it is pointed out that each of us (in this case the Abrahamic faiths) has been assigned their own law (shir'atan) and method (wa minhajan)...

You can forget/ignore/hide verses in your post, but you can't make readers blind.
Read 5:48 & 49 carefully and completely. Consider this reply to you as my last response.

salaam

Mohammed ....

I think you need to revisit the Qur'an's verses again and study the Qur'an again....it is not brother Athman that is making readers blind .... but you are thrusting weird interpretations on to clear verses .... your interpretation is way off .... each to their own I guess ....

[realising/believing]

And do not misunderstand the FAITH of traditional Muslims. They (not all) are following the commands like 5:6 because they born in a traditional Muslim family. The real FAITH is when one (from any religion) realising the truth and accepting the truth. So, as he realising/believing in the Qur'an, he follows the commands like 5:6. (O you who believe...)

What is your point? You are not making sense to me anymore ....Just quoting random verses and highlighting words with colour is not helping ....

Not acceptable Mohammed ....Answer the straight question pls ....would you seek medical assistance in an emergency like a car crash???

If you can't answer it ..in my view ... you are simply wasting everyone's time with your posts ....

You don't seem to be able to answer a  basic question around seeking medical assistance in a serious life threatening scenario.

Shalom / peace sister ....i don't think Mohammed will answer this straight question .....i would like to know the answer to this too .....if he has a serious accident.... and needed A&E care .... what would he want done? ..no attempt at medical care?. let's see if we get a response .....

[And regarding verses like 2:62, 5:69 etc.]

And regarding verses like 2:62, 5:69 etc.

5:69
That those who believed and those who guided/Jews, and the Sabians, and the Nazarenes/Christians, who believed with God and the Day the Last, and worked correct/righteous deeds, so no fear on them, and nor they be sad/grieving.

If one believed in God, he would also believe in God's revelations! (See 2:285) Therefore, 5:69 could be for those who were in such sects (Jews, Christians sabians etc.) before the Qur'an's revelation? Why not? [God's message of truth has always been the same-ponder over 48:28].

Shalom / peace....What are you talking about?

How did you deduce the statement:

If one believed in God, he would also believe in God's revelations! ]


What has believing in God got to do with believing in all revelations? ....There could easily be those that believe in God but haven't been convinced of the revelations that came after them because ....they haven't come across them in a persuasive way or simply haven't read them.... but they can still believe in God!!

In my view ....this is how your interpolations are leading your interpretations astray! 

[everybody]

Therefore, presenting or referring one to somebody else's exposition, discourse or thoughts does not mean that one is blindly 'following others and have not verified the information, for their own safety' (sharing brother Hamzeh's advice to you is a good example of that by the way). Again, if in future I happen in another thread to refer to a given argument that you brother Mohammed raise in this thread today which I find convincing and evidenced from the Qur'an, surely, as you may agree, I should then not be criticized of not using my intellect, my 'reasoning' ability, not verifying the information for myself nor will I be 'following' your arguments blindly. Kindly think about this

This is such a great and important point ....

Just to support this ... i even noted br. Joseph refer to another member of this forum - br Imran Faruqui and gave a reference from him ....even though br Joseph has clear differences of academic views with him ....this doesn't mean anyone is following anyone blindly  ....

The topic was about Dhul Qurnain .....http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=2742.0

I think after years of following a religion and finding out things aren't what they seemed. .some people  completely lose trust in learned people or the clergy class ...so what they end up doing is distrusting everybody even if the arguments are excellent .....this is a very sad outcome ....there is that saying about baby and bathwater....

Shalom / peace brothers Athman and Hamzeh ....... just wanted to quickly say that along with certain other members of this forum ....how much i enjoy reading your posts and arguments ......i wish i could emulate both of  yours and br. Joseph's patience and immaculate style  of delivery ..... but i don't think i have the ingredients  . ...but I'm learning  ......May Allah bless you both .....

[!?]

The day you can provide me a deep ... comprehensive body of work that covers the entire spectrum of topics that the owner of this site has ....

peace Duster,

Why are you still waiting for people's [creatures] work, while The Creator's work (The Qur'an) is in your hand!?

8:29
You, you those who believed if you are aware of God (fear and obey), He makes/creates for you a criterion(Separation of Right and Wrong), and He covers/substitutes from you your sins, and forgives for you, and God (is owner) of the grace/favour/blessing, the great.

No offence intended. It was just an advice, you always have your choice...

Aren't you a creature?  On that basis why should I listen to you? ......

So yes, the Qur a'an is in my hand .,,and with that thought ....i reject your claims because I don't think they are in line with it ....


No offence intended either. ...

Shalom /peace Mohammed

Did you even read the links I shared? If not, we are wasting our time ....

peace Duster,

God gave you 'reason'. So before following others and their works verify for yourself, for your safety.
Take it as a humble advice to you and some other members of this forum.

It is very fortunate that br Hamzeh has responded to you so nicely ...as I am no way as gifted as him to give such a powerful well articulated response as he has ....which I agree with totally.......My response would have been a lot harsher...
.

So now you take my humble advice too ..... don't think that thinking minds on this forum are going to take any sort of nonsensical claims seriously..... why should anyone follow you blindly? I have considered your claims and I find many of them nonsensical.... what you want me to do then? Go against my reason and judgement and still believe you anyway? Don't I have the right to reject someone's claims if I find them weak?

The day you can provide me a deep ... comprehensive body of work that covers the entire spectrum of topics that the owner of this site has .... then start talking if you want to be taken seriously...ok?  ....before you criticise others bring something that is persuasive first ... not half baked ideas with isolated verses on certain topics that don't stand up to close examination .....

If you can give out advice ....learn to take it too ....

Shalom / peace ...

Shalom /peace Mohammed

Did you even read the links I shared? If not, we are wasting our time ....