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Messages - ibn_a

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1
General Discussions / Re: The numerical-semantical structure of the Quran.
« on: February 26, 2021, 12:13:14 AM »
Salaam,



The seven " mina almathani " in chapter 15.

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/15/87/

15:87 We have given thee seven "of the oft-repeated (verses) / mina almathani" and the great Quran.


http://arabiclexicon.hawramani.com/%d8%ab%d9%86%d9%89/?book=50#cab477

almathani المثاني  from the root : Tha Noon Ya ثنى

ثنى

ى1 ثَنَاهُ, (T, S, M, Mgh, Msb, K,) said in the K to be like سَعَى, implying that the aor. is ثَنَىَ, but this is a mistake, (MF, TA,)

 [for it is well known that] the aor. is ثَنِىَ, (Msb,) inf. n. ثَنْىٌ, (S, M, Msb, &c.,) He doubled it, or folded it; (T;) he turned one part of it upon another; (M, K;) he bent it; (T, S, Mgh, Msb, TA;) he drew, or contracted, one of its two extremities to [or towards] the other; or joined, or adjoined, one of them to the other; thus bending it; (Mgh;) namely, a stick, or branch, or twig, (Mgh,) or a thing, (T, S, M, Msb, K,) of any kind


- An interesting observation: in chapter 15 there are 7 verses which are repeated in chapter 38.






- This narrative is about "sujud to Adam/bashar" and is also mentioned seven times in the Quran:


https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/2/34/

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/7/11/

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/15/29/

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/17/61/

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/18/50/

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/20/116/

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/38/72/



- List of the the 78 verse repeated twice in the Quran.







Source:


Quran Uthmani Script

The software to count verses , words and letters,....( Arabic)
http://www.kaheel7.com/ar/index.php/...07-03-19-11-02
or
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9obKsQW-2LlazNfQjRGYS1ORlk/view


والله اعلم
Allah knows best.

2
Salaam brother Hamzeh,



Its quite simple brother, its not about there is or is not a numerical structure. The reason why I believe it increases the believers in faith is that the trial/fitna has come to be fulfilled. Believing in the numerical structure being there or not is another topic.

 You are right if there is no numerical structure in the Quran,  and wrong if there is a  numerical structure in the Quran.





If the evidence to those who question the Qurans authenticity being from God and not a human, is the miracle of the number 19, then I would like to just remind you that the number 19 numerical system of Rashid Khalifa only came to being in the last little while.

So therefor by your reasoning anyone who doubted the Quran's authenticity seems to have a valid excuse before Rashid Khalifa came out with the numerical system.

So for approx 1400 years the Holy Quran did not provide the evidence or a response to those who said "In hatha illa qawlu albashar/Not (is) this but (the) word (of) a human being." ? I find that it always had the proof that it was the word of the Creator.

Still the context is there:
74:25 in hādhā illā qawlu l-bashar
74:26  sa-uṣ'līhi saqar
74:27  wamā adrāka mā saqar
74:28  lā tub'qī walā tadhar
74:29  lawwāḥatun lil'bashar
74:30 alayaha tis'ata ashar

Quran is timeless and it is an additional proof not the only proof just like for example :

scientific facts, historical facts, linguistic perfection, logical arguments, prophecies ,etc...




What I'm saying is that God knows exactly what He sent down to humans of course. He knows every outcome where you assign Alif the number 1 or the number 28 He knows what kind of fascinating outcomes that can be derived from the Quran. This is no accident and He knows the number of words contained in the Book and whether you add them all or multiply them by any specific number He knows the conclusion and what we humans can find out.

This is what I mean its no accident.

But the thing is did God give the license to anyone to assign such numbers to letters and try to formulate a conclusion and thats even if there even is a sound conclusion to it?

It also came to my attention from other articles on the web that at times the methods are not consistent and accurate. To be honest I am not going to try to see if its true or not but there has been an article and I think the only article I read about this which seems to expose the inconsistency in Rashids Khalifas own strategy. Im sure there is advocates and critics to his works but that is not my concern.



If God made the Quran a  numerical structured book  then He knows what methodes people will use to discover this structure and the results will prove which methods is/are correct.

Some examples of observable facts, no need to assign numbers to the letters:

(if some do not understand these examples or think that it is all coincidence and not  an intended strucure, it is there choice.)

The Quran clearly mentioned this number 19 in chapter 74 verse 30 as a response to the claim " Human words 74: 25"

note: 74: 30 alayha tisata ashar   ---  عليها تسعه عشر

19 letters not used from the Arabic alphabet
30 is the 19 th composite number!

-The Quran has 114 chapters : 114 = 19 x 6.


-The basmala has 19 letters.

بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم

-The Basmalah occurs 114 times, despite its absence in chapter 9 it occurs twice in chapter 27


- From the missing Basmalah in chapter 9 to the inside Basmalah in chapter 27, there are 19 chapters


- Number 9 is mentioned in two verses in chapter 27, each at a 19- verse distance from the inside basmalah (Number 9 is mentioned only 4 times in the Quran, so it is very unlikely that the location of these two occurrences of number 9 in chapter 27 at a 19- verse distance from the inside basmalah are the result of a coincidence)


-The 19 th chapter from the end of the Quran has 19 verses.


-The Quran uses 77 different numbers for the  total verses of the chapters :


From largest to smallest, chapter 19 ( 98 verses) is the 19 th:

286 -- 227 -- 206 -- 200 -- 182 -- 176 -- 165 -- 135 -- 129 -- 128 -- 123 -- 120 -- 118 -- 112 -- 111 -- 110 -- 109 -- 99 -- 98 -- 96 -- 93 -- 89 -- 88 -- 85 -- 83 -- 78 -- 77 --  75 -- 73 -- 69 -- 64 -- 62 -- 60 -- 59 -- 56 -- 55 -- 54 -- 53 -- 52 -- 50 -- 49 -- 46 -- 45 -- 44 -- 43 -- 42 -- 40 -- 38 -- 37 -- 36 -- 35 -- 34 -- 31 -- 30 -- 29 -- 28 -- 26 -- 25 -- 24 --  22 -- 21 -- 20 -- 19 --18 -- 17 -- 15 -- 14 -- 13 -- 12 -- 11 -- 9 -- 8 -- 7 -- 6 -- 5 -- 4 -- 3


- There is only one chapter (and it is also the only verse) in the Quran that ends with the name " Allah " , this chapter has 19 verses


- And this is the 19 th occurrence of the name" Allah " from the end of the Quran.


-The Quran mentions 30 different whole numbers:

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9

10 11 12 19 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 99

100 200 300

1000 2000 3000 5000 50000 100000



The sum of these numbers = 162146 = 19 x 8534.
 30 numbers --->  30 is the 19 th composite number.


Salaam,


Some interesting observations about the Basmalah, the 114 chapters of the Quran
and the position of the chapters (with initial letters) in the Quran, considering the indication in 74:30-31 and 72:28












































Source:

The software to count verses , words and letters,....( Arabic)
http://www.kaheel7.com/ar/index.php/...07-03-19-11-02
or
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9o...RGYS1ORlk/view

-Quran : Uthmani Script.

http://www.alargam.com/prove2/burhan3/6.htm
http://www.alargam.com/


والله اعلم
Allah knows best.

More examples here:

The numerical-semantical structure of the Quran.
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=2686.0


- Rashad Khalifa rejecting 9:128-129  is in condradiction with the Quran.

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/15/9/default.htm

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/41/42/

Some of his results contains errors and exaggerations, but some of his results are correct.







Its true, but its also not referring to the numeric system, but seems to be referring to the actual trial/fitna that has been noticed.

So the fitna/trial(that has come to appear in our time) is a reminder to the human.


Thats why I mentioned that it also could be indicating to the event that has unfolded. Which is the trial that came to appear in our time.


Of course it is a fitna/trial for those who disbelieve, so it cannot refer to muslims / believers even if they believe that the Quran is a numerical structured book.




But in the verse 74:31 there is a caution that only those who have a disease in their hearts and the disbelievers are the ones who ask a question regarding the verse which was pre code 19 times. So one would need to steer away from asking the question in this instance regarding 19 especially when the trial is for the disbelievers.


Brother Im just interpreting the verse 3:7. God Himself is exposing who those who are not sincere are. Not me as I do not have that knowledge. All I know is that there is verses in the Quran that none knows their full interpretation except God. Also there is people who will try to pursue unclear verses. Pursue means to explain in great detail and try to get a clear picture and explanation. Pondering verses is fine but one also needs to realize when its not possible to understand the full meaning.

Also I'm not accusing anyone to having perversity in their hearts, God is the One who is telling the reader of the Quran that the hearts of those who seek such verses have perversity. This is a hint for the reader in order to know when one needs to steer clear from such people trying to explain unclear verses.

God is giving people information on something that happen. There are verses in the Quran that God tells us are clearly "mutashibihat"(unclear).

There is people whose hearts have perversity they pursue the unclear mutashibihat. They seek two things 1. fitna(discord), 2. taweel(full explanation).

No one knows the full interpretation/explanation(taweel) except God.

God knows best the intentions and God knows best all things.

3:7 is not about tying to understand verses is about people with bad intentions not someone who may intrprete a verse in an erroneous way.

We should not attribute our understanding to God, as our understanding could be wrong.

From your replies you seem to know and explain why their number/ iddatahum is a fitna for those who disbelieve and it seems also that you have identified those who disbelieve/alladhiena kafaru and explained why it/what increases the faith of those who believe and leave no doubt and cerainty for the People of the Book and the believers.

But when you say that 74:31 is a mutashabihaat verse and not to be pursued, then it would be more logical to abstain from trying to explain this verse, as you cannot be sure about your explanation nor can you be sure that explanation of others are wrong.


In order not to fall in repeating the same arguments and endless debating, please see here my conclusion:

1) it is a "mutashabihaat" verse and we don't know its interpretation, trying to interprete it would be considerd as asking mada arada Allah bi hada mathalan/what does God intended by this example and exposes one in whose hearts is a disease or disbeliever.


2) it is a prophecy i.e.
"some muslims/believers will think that there is a numerical structure in the Quran but in fact it is a fitna/trial for them, so they will be exposed as  those who disbelieve/ fitnaten li alladiena kafaru."(A)

And this (A) will increase the faith of those who believe, and will cause certainty  and no doubt for those who were given the Book and the believers.

And this is but a reminder for mankind:

wama hya illa dikra lilbashar (74:31)

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/74/31/

74:35 Surely, it is one of the greatest / innahā la-iḥ'dā l-kubar
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/74/35/


74:36   A warning to mankind /nadhīran lil'bashar
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/74/36/


3) It refers to the numerical structure of the Quran and it is a fitna for/disturbs/ confuses those who disbelieve/ (i.e those who reject that  Quran is the word of God).

And  the numerical structure of the Quran will increase the faith of those who believe, and certainty  and no doubt for those who were given the Book and the believers.

And this is but a reminder for mankind.(74:31)

And a great one/signe.(74:35)

A warninig to mankind.(74:36)


- In my opinion 3) makes most sense, and of course to each their own understanding.

Peace and best wishes.


والله اعلم
Allah knows best.

3
Salaam,




You wrote:

I do not see how being informed about their number/iddatahum would be a fitna /trial/confusion/test for those who disbelieve, I don't think that those who disbelieve bother at all about their number, be it 19 or whatever number as they do not believe that the Quran is from God.”

In recognition of such an intimation by the Qur’an in 74:31, I wrote: “By such a method, 'disbelievers' and those 'diseased at heart' shall be exposed even among those who call themselves believers.” This is in agreeing with the Qur’anic recognition that even among those who confessed to have 'believed' among Prophet Muhammad’s (a.s) followers, some were ‘disbelievers.’ See verses 9:54ff attesting to this.


Salaam dear Athman,

Not sure how you compare those who believe in the numerical structure of the Quran to  people who disbelieve in Allah and his messenger(pbuh)  / kafaru bi Allah wa rasulihi (Quran 9:54)

Why would someone who disbelieve want to proof that the Quran is a numerical structured preserved book of God?



In addition, in your view, you don’t see how a ‘fitna’ arises with the ‘disbelievers’ with regards to the ‘iddatahum’ in 74:31. Firstly, it should be noted that verse 74:31 asserts that the portrayal of ‘their number’ is not for any other purpose but to be a ‘fitna’ to those who ‘reject’ (kafaru). Therefore, if you don’t see it as a ‘fitna’ to those who ‘disbelieve,’ then that is denying a clear Qur’anic verse. I don’t think you intentionally advocate for this.


Yes it is a fitna for those who disbelieve that the Quran is from God, the question is about why/ how Their number/iddatahum is a fitna for/ disturbs those who disbelieve?

It seems you have answerd the question.

Not sure how you came to the asumption that interpreting a verse = denying a verse.

Even if the interpretation could be wrong.


Secondly, would you please share your view about that part of the verse. It is easier for me to deal with your interpretation of 74:31 with regards the ‘iddat’ being a ‘fitna’ to ‘disbelievers’ rather than defending the clear assertion in the verse that it is only but a ‘fitna’ to those who disbelieve.


The ja3l/ making of their number/iddatahum is not restricted to those who disbelieve,  it is the fitna that is only for those who disbelieve.

For other categorie of people it has other purposes:

- certaintyf for those who were given the Book.
- increase in faith for those who believe.
- no doubts for those who were given the Book and the believers.
- that those in whose hearts there is disease, and disbelievers, may say: what does God mean by this example?



"Nor do I see how the information about their number does increase the faith of those who believe."

Brother Hamzeh has shared a possible explanation. Again, can you please share yours so that we can deal with that rather than defending the clear assertion in the verse that it does increase the faith of those who believe.


I would think that this was clear when i said:

Unless their number/iddatahum  refers to a numerical structure of the Quran which disturbs / confuses those who disbelieve and increases the faith of those who believe.




Unless their number/iddatahum  refers to a numerical structure of the Quran which disturbs / confuses those who disbelieve and increases the faith of those who believe.

From verse 74:31, there’s nothing that tells one that ‘their number’ (iddatahum - 19) is linked to a structure of the Qur’an nor that it should be extrapolated to some Qur’anic numerology. To me, that sounds like a great questionable leap in assumption into sheer fanaticism with numbers. After all, the verse concludes by asserting that none knows God’s agents/ armies (junud) but God. It still expects our understanding that ‘disbelievers’ will fuss around this ‘designated figure’ of angels guarding ‘saqar’ being 19 and not them being confused about it (iddat - 19) being established within the Qur’anic structure.


In my understanding it makes more sense being related to the numerical structure of the Quran in addition of the number of angels guarding hell being 19  rather than that what bothers those who disbelieve is just because the number of angels guarding hell is 19


It can be a way to guide or to go astray  kathalika yudillu Allahu man yashao wayahdee man yashao  (74:31)

Now this answers your original question which was ‘why’, and it is the same response which I gave as shared by the verse itself. See the first paragraph of my first response. I guess now you are probing into the likelihood of 'how.' Would you please clarify.


When those who disbelieve are exposed to the the numerical structure of the Quran,
they either consider this and it could be a way to be guided or they discard it and it could be a way to go astray.

kathalika yudillu Allahu man yashao wayahdee man yashao (74:31)”



As believers in the Quran, we accept this information, but there is no other purose mentioned for these numbers like in Quran 74:31  and We have made their number... / wama ja'alna iddatahum...

I do concur. However, just because the purpose of the ‘iddatahum’ has been cited in 74:31 does not give us reason to pursue it to an obscure interpretation which is not even hinted in the verse. Similarly, just because the purpose of the ‘numerical figures’ in other verses is not cited for our knowledge does not make it insignificant. We do not however have datum to pursue it anyway though we can easily relate to the message being shared.


Biside there being 19 angels guarding hell, a purpose was assigned to this number
jalnaa iddatahum /made their number

Nowhere did I say that it is 'insignificant'.

Here is what i said:

Quote

- And of course, that those who believe accept all verses in the Quran.
Concering other numbers for example:

* 6   peroiode of creation (first time mentioned -> 7:54 )
* 7   samawaat (first time mentioned  -> 2:29 )
* 7  gates of jahannam  ( 15:44 )
* 8  in charge of ( yahmilu ) archa rabbika  ( 69:17 )
* etc..

As believers in the Quran, we accept this information, but there is no other purose mentioned for these numbers like in Quran 74:31  and We have made their number... / wama ja'alna iddatahum...
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/74/31





See also this verse that seems to refer to a numerical structure of the Quran; 72:28 --> count of everything by number, concerning   "the message of their Lord".”

Respectfully, verse 72:28 does not allude to a numerical structure of the Qur’an per se. God ‘having had tallied everything in numbers’ does not equate to the Qur’an having a numerical structure. The tallying in number (‘adada) as in 72:28 is not necessarily in connection with the Qur’an but with everything in nature having been proportioned in precise measurements/ numbers.


There is no reason to exclude the Quran from this, especially when the context is about "the message of their Lord".



Quran 3:7 seems about bad intention ibtigha alfitna and lack of objectivity and desire fi quluobihim zaygun about the mutashabihaat verses

I don’t dispute this. I can’t also entirely be sure of the intention of one when they seek to interpret something of ‘ghayb’ (19 angels over 'saqar') hence I can’t judge them either. However, as far as the Qur’anic guidance on this is concerned, I don’t expect a true believer to gloss over its interpretation. Rather, I expect them to accept matters of ‘ghayb’ and remain content with the level of detail shared by the Qur’an.


I do not see how you came to the conclusion that interpreting a verse = not accepting matters of ghayb.

Why didn't you remain content with the level of detail shared by the Qur’an i.e.
(19 angels over 'saqar') rather than explaining that it exposes the disbelievers etc...



Quran 2:26 seems like a response to a questioning about what is or not appropriate according to their desire to be given as an example  mada arada Allah bihada mathalan.”

In both verses 2:26 and 74:31, the narratives seem to be presented in context of matters of the Hereafter. While verse 74:31 touches on guards over ‘saqar,’ verse 2:26 in context with verse 2:25 touch on similitudes of the particulars of 'Jannah' with some worldly semblance. Thus, such citations of some particulars of the Hereafter are just made for us to relate given our worldly limitation and not for us to ask “madha arada Allahu bi-hadha mathala.” They are matters of ‘ghayb’ never to be pursued to reach a vivid detailed explanation. They form part of the ‘mutashabihat’ verses to us.


From your replies you seem to know and explain why their number/ iddatahum is a fitna for those who disbelieve and it seems also that you have identified those who disbelieve/alladhiena kafaru and explained why it/what increases the faith of those who believe and leave no doubt and cerainty for the People of the Book and the believers.

But when you say that 74:31 is a mutashabihaat verse and not to be pursued, then it would be more logical to abstain from trying to explain this verse, as you cannot be sure about your explanation nor can you be sure that explanation of others are wrong.


In order not to fall in repeating the same arguments and endless debating, please see here my conclusion:

1) it is a "mutashabihaat" verse and we don't know its interpretation, trying to interprete it would be considerd as asking mada arada Allah bi hada mathalan/what does God intended by this example and exposes one in whose hearts is a disease or disbeliever.


2) it is a prophecy i.e.
"some muslims/believers will think that there is a numerical structure in the Quran but in fact it is a fitna/trial for them, so they will be exposed as  those who disbelieve/ fitnaten li alladiena kafaru."(A)

And this (A) will increase the faith of those who believe, and will cause certainty  and no doubt for those who were given the Book and the believers.

And this is but a reminder for mankind:

wama hya illa dikra lilbashar (74:31)

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/74/31/

74:35 Surely, it is one of the greatest / innahā la-iḥ'dā l-kubar
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/74/35/


74:36   A warning to mankind /nadhīran lil'bashar
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/74/36/


3) It refers to the numerical structure of the Quran and it is a fitna for/disturbs/ confuses those who disbelieve/ (i.e those who reject that  Quran is the word of God).

And  the numerical structure of the Quran will increase the faith of those who believe, and certainty  and no doubt for those who were given the Book and the believers.

And this is but a reminder for mankind.(74:31)

And a great one/signe.(74:35)

A warninig to mankind.(74:36)


- In my opinion 3) makes most sense, and of course to each their own understanding.

Peace and best wishes.



والله اعلم
Allah knows best.



4
General Discussions / Re: The numerical-semantical structure of the Quran.
« on: February 03, 2021, 10:47:07 PM »
Salaam,


According to this software ( see source ) the most used letter in the Quran ( Uthmani Script) is the letter Alif ا
When the letters in the Quran are sorted from the most used to the less used, gives the following result:

value    times used + letter
---------------------------------------
1      52655 = ا
2      38102 = ل
3      27268 = ن
4      26735 = م
5      25746 = ي
6      25676 = و
7      17194 = ه
8      12403 = ر
9      11491 = ب
10    10520 = ت
11    10497 = ك
12    09405 = ع
13    08747 = ف
14    07034 = ق
15    06010 = س
16    05991 = د
17    04932 = ذ
18    04140 = ح
19    03317 = ج
20    02497 = خ
21    02124 = ش
22    02074 = ص
23    01686 = ض
24    01599 = ز
25    01414 = ث
26    01273 = ط
27    01221 = غ
28    00853 = ظ


When the values of these lettters are applied to the basmalah the result is 114, same as the number of chapters in the Quran, and the number of times the basmalah occurs in the Quran.

بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم




note:
Another researcher, Adnan Rifai used another counting method and has obtained a value of 115 for the basmalah.


source Arabic :
https://vb.tafsir.net/tafsir35892/#.XEA-3GlCeCh

Quran Uthmani Script

The software to count verses , words and letters,....( Arabic)
http://www.kaheel7.com/ar/index.php/...07-03-19-11-02
or
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9obKsQW-2LlazNfQjRGYS1ORlk/view




والله اعلم
Allah knows best.

5

Salaam,

I think we need to understand that disbelievers are not always people who outright admit they do not believe in the Quran. Actually the Quran seems to describe these disbelievers in verse 74:31 as ones who question and read the Quran 74:31 part "and that those in whose hearts there is disease, and disbelievers, may say: What meaneth Allah by this similitude?".

Also verse 3:7 does not speak highly of people who pursue unclear verses(mutashibahat), which seems like they read and spend time trying to seek a full interpretations and cause corruption or dissension.

Also I have a feeling and excuse me if I'm wrong but the verse is not quite understood the way it should be.

Here is a word for word translation to the best of my knowledge. Try to understand it from a pre code 19 era.

74:31 Wama jaAAalna ashabaa nnari illa mala-ikatan wama jaAAalna AAiddatahum illa fitnatan lillatheenakafaroo...

74:31 And not do We appoint/make the keepers/guardians of the fire(anyone or anything else) ONLY/EXCEPT Angels, and not do We appoint/make their number(known) ONLY/EXCEPT as a trial/confusion to those who disbelieved.

What God is telling us in this verse, in my interpolation is that He does not assign the positions for guardianship/keepers/wardens/guards to the fire to anyone or anything else but only them being Malaikat(Angels who never fail in their commands). And that the ONLY(illa)reason that He The Creator has made their number known to the humans on earth in this life through the Quran that they are 19, is ONLY because to be a confusion/trial/stumbling block to those who disbelieved. Otherwise it seems to point out in my humble opinion it does not serve any other purpose to us now.

I have given my opinion in the previous post as to why. Pre code 19 times, no one would seem to ever understand what God meant by the number being a trial/confusion.

With the span of time this trial/confusion has been apparent. Only God Himself would know that one day this is going to be something people are going to pursue.

Believers have witnessed that no one could of ever known this situation coming to unfold only God. So today we have seen this happen which could only increase ones faith to the All-Knowing. Its another piece of information that leads more to the authenticity of God being the Source of this Quran.


Salaam brother Hamzeh,

See my comment to almost the same argument on another forum:

Some of those who do not believe in a numerical structure, see 74:30-31 as a Prohecy i.e.

The reason for revealing this number 19 would be that a group of believers would think that  that there is a numerical structure in the Quran.(that actually wouldn't be there??? ) and the purpose would be:
that other groups will increase their faith and have no doubt, by observing the group of believers who  believe that there is a numerical structure in the Quran .


One of the problems with this understanding is that  they categorize those who believe that there is a numerical structure (and of course believe) in the Quran, as:

"those who disbelieve / reject / alladhiena kafaru."

Which doesn't make sense of course, and in contradiction with the Quran, because those who believe that there is a numerical structure in the Quran are not disbelievers, as their aim is to prove that the Quran is a numerically preseved book by God, in addition to other facts in the Quran which proofs that it is from God.


It seems that hey don't (want to) read in context, that is why I thik that they missed the reason for mentioning this number 19 as a response to:

In hatha illa qawlu albashar/Not (is) this but (the) word (of) a human being.

74:25 in hādhā illā qawlu l-bashar
74:26  sa-uṣ'līhi saqar
74:27  wamā adrāka mā saqar
74:28  lā tub'qī walā tadhar
74:29  lawwāḥatun lil'bashar
74:30 alayaha tis'ata ashar

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/74/25/
So according to logic and in context, this number 19 will disprove that : In hatha illa qawlu albashar/Not (is) this but (the) word (of) a human being.


And I thik that they missed also the warning: Innaha la-ihda alkubari natheeran lilbashar
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/74/35/
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/74/36/




The believers according to the Quran are ones who have believed in the words of the Quran. Its very simple statements that seem to be in harmony with people.

Agree and why would that exclude that the Quran contains for example :
scientific facts, historical facts, linguistic perfection, numerical structure, prophecies ,etc...




I honestly find that spending time focusing on numerical structures to prove the Quran is the word of God is not getting the correct message of the Quran.

(A)  If God made the Quran a numerically structured book, then logique implies that efforts have to be done in order to discover this structure.
 



At times its just taking the words of the person telling the other person that they exist and they are not able to fully verify them as you and I know it takes a tremendous effort and time and its relying on other peoples setup.

There is no need to do this manually, programmes are available and it takes only few clics to verify the correctness.
See this programme for example:

The software to count verses , words and letters,....( Arabic)

http://www.kaheel7.com/ar/index.php/...07-03-19-11-02
or
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9o...RGYS1ORlk/view

See this example:
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=2686.msg14716#msg14716

If you know how to use this programme it will take only few minutes to verify.




That me personally. I mean they maybe fascinating and of course its not accidental. This is of course by the will of God. But its not the message. 

Not sure if I understand what you mean by this, but If you say that it is not accidental and by the will of God, then what exactly is it that you are opposing?



Quote
Their number/iddatahum was set only in order to remind   wama hya illa dikra lilbashar (74:31).

I believe the "this"(hiya) is a reference to the Quran being a reminder to humans.

"hiya" (feminine) cannot refer to "the Quran"(masculine ).




Quote
Read further in context "their number/iddatahum" :

74:35 Surely, it is one of the greatest / innahā la-iḥ'dā l-kubar
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/74/35/


74:36   A warning to mankind /nadhīran lil'bashar
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/74/36/

There is nothing in these verses that suggest that its referring to their number. Their number was only mentioned in the Quran to be a trial/confusion. These verses could be referring to either the Quran or the future knowledge of this event unfolding.

"innaha" (feminine) cannot refer to "the Quran"(masculine ).




These again some word fall under the unclear verses and some word be clear to us. The word "saba'3a" seven also means several in certain context.

Agree that the word "saba'3a" seven also means several in certain context, the point was that we are informed about other numbers and that there seems no purpose assigned to these numbers in contrast to number 19 in the Quran.



Of course, pondering about the verses does not mean using a numerical system that has been assigned by certain letters.

See (A)


I do not agree with this interpolation. The verse is clear that its people whos hearts has perversity seek to pursue the mutashabihat verses(unclear) in order to cause fitna and get the full interpretation/meaning. None knows its(the Qurans) full interpretation only God.

The verse imo is about people with bad intentions not about those who are sincere and ponder  in order to gain knowledge and wisdom from the Quran.

Most commentators of the Quran ponder and try to explain all verses, and if there is a disagreement on the interpretation, it shouldn't be a reason for some to accuse others as ones whos hearts has perversity.


Thanks for your comments.


والله اعلم
Allah knows best.



6
Salaam


Salaam Athman and Hamzeh,
Thaks for sharing your understanding.

- I do not see how being informed about their number/iddatahum would be a fitna /trial/confusion/test for those who disbelieve, I don't think that those who disbelieve bother at all about their number, be it 19 or whatever number as they do not believe that the Quran is from God.

And saqar and number19 (74:26-30) in this context came as a response to the accusation about the Quran, being human words (74:25).

Nor do I see how the information about their number does increase the faith of those who believe.

Unless their number/iddatahum  refers to a numerical structure of the Quran which disturbs / confuses those who disbelieve and increases the faith of those who believe.

It can be a way to guide or to go astray  kathalika yudillu Allahu man yashao wayahdee man yashao  (74:31)  :

Their number/iddatahum was set only in order to remind   wama hya illa dikra lilbashar (74:31).


Read further in context "their number/iddatahum" :

74:35 Surely, it is one of the greatest / innahā la-iḥ'dā l-kubar
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/74/35/


74:36   A warning to mankind /nadhīran lil'bashar
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/74/36/


- And of course, that those who believe accept all verses in the Quran.
Concering other numbers for example:

* 6   peroiode of creation (first time mentioned -> 7:54 )
* 7   samawaat (first time mentioned  -> 2:29 )
* 7  gates of jahannam  ( 15:44 )
* 8  in charge of ( yahmilu ) archa rabbika  ( 69:17 )
* etc..

As believers in the Quran, we accept this information, but there is no other purose mentioned for these numbers like in Quran 74:31  and We have made their number... / wama ja'alna iddatahum...
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/74/31


See also this verse that seems to refer to a numerical structure of the Quran; 72:28 --> count of everything by number, concerning   "the message of their Lord".

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/72/28/
So as to make manifest that they have conveyed the messages of their Lord. He encompasses what they have, and has counted everything in numbers.


We are asked to ponder on verses in order to understand:

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/38/29/
(This is) a Book We have revealed it to you, blessed, that they may ponder (over) its Verses and may be reminded those of understanding.


Quran 3:7 seems about bad intention ibtigha alfitna and lack of objectivity and desire fi quluobihim zaygun about the mutashabihaat verses

Quran 2:26 seems like a response to a questioning about what is or not appropriate according to their desire to be given as an example  mada arada Allah bihada mathalan.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmNgibcL3N0






والله اعلم
Allah knows best.



7
Assalamu alaykum dear Athman and Hamzeh.
Thank you very much for your replies.

Concerning Quran 9 :128-129
I want to clarify that verse 128 and verse 129 of chapter 9 are part of the Quran.

I will comment on your replies later in sha'a Allah.

8
Salaam,


Why is iddatahum / their number / their count / their amount fitna / test / trial for those who disbelieve / reject ?

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/74/31/default.htm



9
General Discussions / Re: The numerical-semantical structure of the Quran.
« on: December 25, 2020, 11:00:49 PM »

Salaam,


Salaam,



    In the Quran the word Saqarسقر is related to number 19.


    74:26 I will cast him in / I shall cause him to endure "Saqar".

    74:27 And what could make thee conceive what "Saqar"is?

    74:28 It does not spare nor leave.

    74:29 Manifest/making visible to human beings / mortal man.

    74:30 Over it (are)nineteen.



    -The word Saqarسقر is mentioned 4 times in 4 verses in two chapters; chapter 54 Al-Qamar and chapter 74 Al-Mudaththir.


   
    54:48 On the Day when they shall be dragged into the fire on their faces( wujoohihim ),
              [they will be told:] “Taste now the touch of "Saqar""!”


    74:26 I will cast him in / I shall cause him to endure "Saqar".

    74:27 And what could make thee conceive what "Saqar" is?

    74:42 What has brought you into "Saqar"?






    1) - Between these two chapters, there are 19 chapters.


    54    55    56    57    58    59    60    61    62    63    64    65    66    67    68    69    70    71    72    73    74



    2) - The total words of the 4 verses where the word Saqar سقر is mentioned is 19 words.


chapter          number                                              verse text                                 
verse             of words
                                                                   
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------                                                                                 
                              
54:48         ( 9 words )     يوم    يسحبون    في    النار    علي    وجوههم    ذوقوا    مس    سقر

74:26         ( 2 words )                                                                                                                              ساصليه    سقر

74:27         ( 4 words )                                                                                                      و ما    ادريك    ما    سقر
   
74:42         ( 4 words )                                                                                                        ما    سلككم    في    سقر
   
                     
                           

    3) - The Arabic word Saqar سقر is composed of 3 letters: Seen س . Qaf ق . Ra ر .

    The sum of the occurrences of these 3 letters in the 4 verses is 19 times .


   Seen = 8 times

   Qaf  = 5 times

   Ra  = 6 times
.



    4) - The total letters of these 4 verses consist of 19 different letters.



ي   و    ه    ن    م    ل    ك    ق    ف    ع    ص    س    ر    ذ    د    ح    ج    ب    ا



    Source:

    -The software to count verses , words and letters,....( Arabic)

    http://www.kaheel7.com/ar/index.php/1/1690-2014-07-03-19-11-02
    or
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9o...RGYS1ORlk/view

    -Quran : Uthmani Script.


    والله اعلم
    Allah knows best.




Quote


https://www.facebook.com/photo?fbid=952492131906329&set=gm.1017492882052170
Kai SP

Exactly in between Ch 54 & Ch 74 there are 19 Chapters.

And exactly in between this Ch 54 & Ch 74 also, total letters of سقر will equal to exactly 448 + 491 + 1018 = 1957.

And 1957 is kind of like there are 1+3 nineteen too ! 19 and (19+19+19).

Chapter 54 has 1 word سقر and Chapter 74 has 3 word سقر.

And 1957 is also like a combination of one 19 and three 19.




The number of  letters Seen س . Qaf ق . Ra ر    of the 19 chapters between chapter 54 Al-Qamar and chapter 74 Al-Mudaththir:




Note that SAQAR is mentioned immediately after this:

Quran 74:25 "Not is this but (the) word (of) a human being."



Source:

https://www.facebook.com/photo?fbid=952492131906329&set=gm.1017492882052170
Kai SP

The software to count verses , words and letters,....( Arabic)
http://www.kaheel7.com/ar/index.php/...07-03-19-11-02
or
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9o...RGYS1ORlk/view

-Quran : Uthmani Script.




والله اعلم
Allah knows best.

10
Salaam,


Salaam ibn_a

I see from your article that the 114th you are counting is from Chapter 27:30

You said to me:

Quote
No it is not a mistake, with all due respect, but I think that you confound what is scholarly named as:
  "THE BASMALAH / البسمله "  with "BISMI  ALLAH / بسم الله "


 "THE BASMALAH / البسمله "   i.e       بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم
has 19 letters and occurs 114 times in the Quran


But in 27:30 it is in the form of "BISMI  ALLAH / بسم الله " so this doesn't count towards your BASMALAH then?

Salaam Truth Seeker,


The basmalah:
Bismi Allah Al-Rahmān Al-Rahīm  / بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم

Occurs in 27:30

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basmala







والله اعلم
Allah knows best.


11
Salaam Truth Seeker,

Thanks for your interest, you may have missed this post:


Salaam,















والله اعلم
Allah knows best.



source:
http://scdofg.net/wp-content/uploads/flipbook/1/book.html#p=110

https://www.scribd.com/document/348386912/The-Sun-Rises-in-the-West-2018-Farid-Gabteni

https://www.academia.edu/37494956/Farid_Gabteni_-_The_Sun_Rises_in_the_West_9th_edition_2018_


Note also this relation between chapter 9 and chapter 27 and number 19

- Chapter 9 has 129 verses.

9 + 129 = 138


- Chapter 27 has 93 verses.

27 + 93 = 120


From number 120 to number 138, there are 19 numbers.






والله اعلم
Allah knows best.




12
Salaam,




https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/55/1/default.htm
الرحمن / Al-Raḥmaan / The Most Gracious

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/55/2/
 القران  علم  /  ʿallama Al-Qur'aan
taught /made known / marked the Quran




Should be :

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/55/1/default.htm
الرحمن / Al-Raḥmaan / The Most Gracious

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/55/2/
علم القران ʿallama Al-Qur'aan
taught /made known / marked the Quran


13
Salaam,


Number 13 and 31 in the Quran.

In chapter 55 Al-Rahman, which is composed of 78 verses,
there is a verse that is numerically distinguished between the verses of the Quran, it is the verse :

Which, then, of your Sustainer’s powers can you disavow?
فباي الا ربكما تكذبان

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/55/13/default.htm


- This verse is repeated in chapter Al-Rahman 31 times.
The first time this verse is mentioned is in verse number 13, reverse of 31.

-----

- Verse 31 in this chapter has 13 different letters.

55:31 [ONE DAY] We shall take you to task, O you sin-laden two!
سنفرغ لكم ايه الثقلان

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/55/31/default.htm






- The repeated verses ( 31 verses ) are surrounded by 13 verses.

12 verses before verse 13 ( first time where the repeated verse is mentioned ),

and 1 verse after verse 77 ( last time where the repeated verse is mentioned ).




- The sum of the 12 verse numbers before verse 13 is 78, same as the last verse number:

1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12 13  ... 77  78

1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + 5 + 6 + 7 + 8 + 9 + 10 + 11 + 12 = 78


-The total number of verses of chapter Al-Rahman = 78

78 = 13 x 6
-----

The total number of words in chapter Al-Rahman = 351

351 = 13 × 27
-----

The number of letters of the non repeated verses ( 47 verses ) = 1027

1027 = 13 × 79

-----



Seen the indication in chapter Al-Rahman about 13 and 31

- Chapter Al-Rahman is the 55 th chapter in the Quran.

- The 55 th chapter from the end of the Quran is chapter 60 and has 13 verses.

This is the only chapter which has 13 verses

- The only chapter which has 31 verses is chapter 76, this is the 39 th chapter from the end of the Quran.

39 =  13 x 3

-----


- The name Al-Rahman is mentioned in the Quran 169 times if the Basmalah's are included.

169 = 13 x 13

Note also reverse:

961 = 31 x 31


الرحمن / Al-Raḥmaan / The Most Gracious / The Origin





---------

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/55/1/default.htm
الرحمن / Al-Raḥmaan / The Most Gracious

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/55/2/
 القران  علم  /  ʿallama Al-Qur'aan
taught /made known / marked the Quran

The sum of the chapter numbers and the sum of the total  number of verses before
chapter Al-Rahman is 1485 + 4901 = 6386

The sum of the chapter numbers and the sum of the total number of verses after
chapter Al-Rahman is  5015 + 1257 = 6272

6386 - 6272 = 114  i.e the numer of chapters in the Quran.

AND

Chapter 55 Al-Rahman has 78 verses.
55 + 78 = 133 = 114 + 19

About 19 see chapter 74:30-31





------


Other observations about number 13 and 31

- The total number of verses of each of the 114 chapters of the Quran sorted from smallest to largest.


Note the reverse of the numbers:  26 and 62   --   13 and 31



-----



An other example of reverse concerning chapter 13 and  chapter 31

Chapter 13 has 43 verses.

Chapter 31 has 34 verses.


-----


Number 13  and number 31 are also related to number 19.

From number 13 to number 31 there are 19 numbers.





Note also:

-The first verse of the Quran has 19 letters:

بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم

-The last verse of the Quran has 13 letters:

من الجنه والناس



-----

source: (arabic) Abdullah Jalghoum :
https://vb.tafsir.net/tafsir11772/#.WuSF5X8uCCg
https://vb.tafsir.net/tafsir15669/
https://vb.tafsir.net/tafsir16257/
https://www.academia.edu/37494956/Farid_Gabteni_-_The_Sun_Rises_in_the_West_9th_edition_2018_   page 168-169

The software to count verses , words and letters,....( Arabic)
http://www.kaheel7.com/ar/index.php/...07-03-19-11-02
or
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9o...RGYS1ORlk/view


والله اعلم
Allah knows best.



14
Salaam,


MashAllah, please keep the post live....I'm fascinated and amazed by this aspect of the Majestic Quran too

Salaam Student,
Thanks for your interest.

15
Salaam,


Salaam ibn_a

I noticed that your posts are mainly about numbering of verses etc in the Quran to show the number 19. There seems to be an obsession of showing the pattern of 19 using mathematical formulas in order to prove that it is a special number in relation to Quran 74:30.
...

Salaam Truth Seeker,

- Not about obsession, the question should be:
Is there a numerical structure in the Quran and what is the purpose?
If not, then what is the information for example given in:

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/72/28/default.htm

72:28 So as to make manifest that they have conveyed the messages of their Lord. He encompasses what they have, and has counted everything in numbers.

AND

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/74/24/

74:24 Then he said, "Not (is) this but magic imitated.
74:25 Not (is) this but (the) word (of) a human being."
74:26 Soon I will drive him (into) Hell.
74:27 And what can make you know what (is) Hell?
74:28 Not it lets remain and not it leaves,
74:29 Scorching the human (skin).
74:30 Over it (are) nineteen.
74:31 And not We have made keepers (of) the Fire except Angels. And not We have made their number except (as) a trial for those who disbelieve - that may be certain those who were given the Scripture and may increase those who believe (in) faith, and not may doubt those who were given the Scripture and the believers, and that may say those in their hearts (is) a disease and the disbelievers "What (does) intend Allah by this example?" Thus does let go astray Allah whom He wills and guides whom He wills. And none knows (the) hosts (of) your Lord except Him. And not it (is) but a reminder to (the) human beings.
74:32 Nay! By the moon,
74:33 And the night when it departs,
74:34 And the morning when it brightens,
74:35 Indeed, it (is) surely one (of) the greatest,
74:36 A warning to (the) human being,




 ... Do you not think that by doing this, a person would get side tracked instead of reading the Quran?
...

- Not sure why someone would think that the numerical structure of the Quran distract from reading the Quran and reflecting, on the contrary I think it is a divine tool among others to ponder on the Quran.



...
The meaning of the words should be reflected and upon that basis, someone can decide if they believe it to be God's word?
...

That does not exclude that the Quran contains for example :
scientific facts, historical facts, linguistic perfection, numerical structure, prophecies ,etc...

Some examples to consider about the structure of the Quran:

- Chapter 2 has 286 verses,  why such a long chapter, compared to :

- Chapter 108 very short chapter,  which has only 3 verses:

بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم
انا اعطينك الكوثر
فصل لربك وانحر
ان شانيك هو الابتر


- The legth of 74:31 compared to the other verses in this chapter.
- Absence of the basmalah in chapter 9, extra basmalah inside chapter 27.
- What about the chapters with initial letters, and their location.
- Events repeated and scattered throughout the Quran :
       Moses and Pharaoh ,  Noah and his people , Adam and the angels/malaika, etc...


Human logic would expect:

- Chapters of approximately the same length.
- A chapter dedicated to each Prophet / Messenger, like chapter Joseph.
- A chapter about creation, Hereafter,...
- Historical order, etc...



...

Also in your post about the numbers of 'Basmalah' there is a BIG MISTAKE which ruins the formula used to find 19. It says that 'The Basmalah has 19 letters and is repeated 114 times in the Quran 114 = 19 x6'

Bismillah OCCURS IN THE QURAN 115 TIMES, not 114 times

113 of those are at the start of the chapters (Surah Taubah has no Bismillah)
2 of those are found inside chapters. 1 Bismillah in Surah Hud and 1 Bismillah inside Surah Naml


Surah Hud
“He said, “Embark upon it. In the Name of God be its coursing and its mooring. Truly my Lord is Forgiving, Merciful.” (11:41)

Surah Naml
“Verily, it is from Solomon and verily it is, In the Name of God, the Compassionate, the Merciful.” (27:30)

So your 'Basmalah' formula is incorrect!

- No it is not a mistake, with all due respect, but I think that you confound what is scholarly named as:
  "THE BASMALAH / البسمله "  with "BISMI  ALLAH / بسم الله "


 "THE BASMALAH / البسمله "   i.e       بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم
has 19 letters and occurs 114 times in the Quran



https://www.academia.edu/37494956/Farid_Gabteni_-_The_Sun_Rises_in_the_West_9th_edition_2018_
page: 141


والله اعلم
Allah knows best.

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