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I confess that I may have misunderstood your position regarding the Quran and how you interpret its veracity along with its position amongst all the other scriptures; that is why I assumed that the Quran would remain our final criterion. I believe now that I was possibly mistaken in this regards, borne from what I feel are some of the sentiments you have shared over the course of your writings here on the forum.

I will of course be conscious of this in any future response I respectfully share with you.

Regards,
Joseph

Sorry Br. Jospeh. When I read the quote from what I wrote it comes across quite negative and harsh of the Qur'an and this site, which is not at all where I stand. I can honestly say that I have referred the articles on this site to hundreds of people as, in my view, the premier website globally on themes within the Qur'an. Some of these people in turn I know have translated dozens of articles on this site in their own language.

Simply to summarize, I believe in the message of the Qur'an, with the Qur'an often utilising stories contemporary to the Prophet as the medium to communicate the message, with those stories based upon Prophets of history. With this, the focus is on the message, not the story.
Anyway this is how I can come to a position of the Holy Books in unity with each other which I am committed to.

This has been my position all along on this forum... sorry if I came across negative Duster & Hamzeh,

All the best,

Zack

["The stories in the Qur'an are true because the Qur'an says the stories in the Quran are true."]

Just so people don't mis-quote or misunderstand me, I have never said anything negative about the Qur'an.

However the traditional approach, including it seems the consensus on this forum, is "The stories in the Qur'an are true because the Qur'an says the stories in the Quran are true." As the Qur'an is increasingly subject to critical thinking, as the Bible has been, people who have this position of "because the Qur'an says so" will probably be respected, but viewed as not having any substance to their belief. I am surprised with this, as a number of articles encourage us to "use our mind.," not blind faith.

However when we approach the stories of the Qur'an as I have suggested, that is its approach is to utilise existing oral stories to preach a message of repentance, the Qur'an can stand firm in a critical environment.

So just so I understand.... You believe that Allah revealed to Muhammad in a cave the historical events that occurred thousands of years earlier, correct? Even though the Hebrew people, who had been the custodians of these stories back to the time of Moses, did not view these stories in their history, the stories that Muhammad revealed superseded the understanding of how the Hebrews understood their own story?

I don't get that understanding from the Qur'an...... instead the Qur'an guards, confirms, affirms etc. the previous message.

Wasalam
Zack

[in truth]

"We narrate / recite to you from the news / stories Moses and Pharaoh in truth, for folk who believe."[/i][/color]

Other stories have been hedged with similar narrative expectations, that they are a rehearsal of an actual piece of historical reality.

012:111
"Verily, in their stories / histories there is a lesson for men of understanding. It is no invented story but a confirmation of what was before it and a detailed explanation of everything, and a guidance and a mercy for people who believe."

Regards,
Joseph

For me, I try to realistically visualise the context such as the couple of verses above to understand them. Arabs who had little or no knowledge of the Kitab that was held by the Ahli Kitab. To those people who have sometimes been hearing stories NOT in the Kitab, even parchments being sold as if they are from Kitab, Muhammad is saying that the stories of Moses and Pharaoh ARE in the Kitab, the one held by the Ahli Kitab.

Remembering the same context, reading 12:111, I think we need to use the type of language being used. "A detailed explanation of everything"... The Qur'an certainly is not a "Detailed explanation" of the previous Books. A quick look at the number of pages and stories will answer that, nor is there any logical sequence.

I take away from such verses that the Qur'an is presenting that the message is inter-connected / integrated with the previous books, and the characters in the Qur'an are the characters within the previous books.

Beyond this, I personally do not base my conclusions only upon internal statements within the Qur'an..

Great to chat again,

Zack

Hello Friends,

One of the most interesting differences with traditional Islamic literature with non-Islamic historical contempoary, or soon after the Prophet, is the following:

-   All later Islamic literature, written centuries after Muhammad, presents Muhammad as being buried in Medina in 632AD.
-   However more than 10 independent sources, near contempoary to Muhammad and in diverse regions and cultures, all speak of Muhammad personally entering Palestine in 634AD.

This subject is studied in the book, "The Death of the Prophet." A part of the conclusion was that the revised later history was a part of the "Arabization" of the muslim movement.  The other is that when we look at the Qur'an as a whole, its' emphasis is that they believe they are in the last days before judgement. With this, the focus was upon a move towards Palestine.  In reconstructing events, Palestine is the  primary "Sacred Geography", with Mecca secondary. A sample of the verses of the view of the end of the Day of Judgement is below.

I would be interested to hear your thoughts....

"The matter of the Hour is as a twinkling of the eye, or nearer" (16:79), warns the Qur'an. The Day of Judgment is "imminent" (40:18) The "Lord's  "judgment" or "the terror"—"is about to fall" upon the world "none denies its descending," and "there is none to avert it" (52:7–8 51:6 56:1–2). The chastisement is in fact near (78:40 see also 27:72, 36:49), and the Qur'an promises that the punishments of hell and the bliss of paradise will be known soon "with the knowledge of certainty," that is, at first hand (102:3–5). The Qur'an rebukes those who disregard its warning, threatening that they will soon behold the Hour and its punishments with their own eyes (19:75). The Qur'an also refers frequently to certain signs, particularly astronomical events, that will herald the Hour's arrival (for example, 45:17), and some of these, it would appear, had already occurred within recent memory. Surah 77 warns, "Surely that which you are promised is about to fall."

Zack

What are you trying to say? That these stories may not be true? That they are simply stories circulated by the Arabs? 
If I've misunderstood you..... please clarify....

Yes, that is correct. This doesn't diminish the purpose of the message of the Qur'an. To me, and many others, everything points towards the stories of the Qur'an being oral stories in Arabia at the surrounding region at the time of Muhammad.

Muhammad wasn't revealed a history book. He was revealed a message. And to communicate that message, local stories were used. Most logically thinking people would see quickly that the Qur'an does not read as presenting History, when they put it beside any historical document. There is no chronology, little or no context to events.

If you were to recreate a history of the Prophets (Relevant Places, time, people etc), from the Qur'an, it is not possible. In fact, to say that the Qur'an is a historical Book is an insult to the Qur'an.

When referring to stories in the Quran, my understanding is that they are ahistorical. The stories of the Qur'an are known oral stories circulated in the Prophets context. They were utilised generally for another purpose, ie. To bring give examples of God's judgement if people do not repent.

This changes totally the way you approach such stories below, of Moses etc. Muhammad had no clear understanding of the stories of the former books, which were not in Arabic. The purpose of the story was to show "That God is forgiving and merciful" (v57,58). Therefore a local oral Arabic story was used to emphasize this point.

In my opinion, treating the stories of the Qur'an as a historical book doesn't fulfill its purpose, and has very little basis. Increasingly the origins of the Qur'an's stories as oral in the region at Muhammad's time is clear.

Wasalam
Zack

Salam

Can you please give at least one example for an ayah/situation/event that doesn't concern us and/or benefit us or that we do not have to take as a lesson today ?
[/quote]

Hello ilker,

I think all you are saying is that your are a literalist, whilst relearning is a contextualist, like me. This is not really my field, however verses such as those relating to Inheritance: (QS 4:11-12) or womens issues (2:282) may be examples.

Wasalam

Zack

[reasonable]

Hello friends,

From what I understand, it is recommended to start a new topic if the content is dealing with something different. So I would like to respond to the following:

Thank you for your comments. If you notice the verses you kindly quoted they are speaking about before he became a prophet of God.
I stated that after or during his ministry sometime he might of possibly been familiar with the previous scriptures."

I would like to make comment concerning a couple of things..

1) There is nothing to suggest Muhammad did NOT have a reasonable understanding of the previous scriptures. The reference used in 29:48 is more likely a linguistic issue (43.3), "The Book" was in another language (Syriac), and therefore the Arab peoples dependant upon oral traditions of scripture. Because of this linguistic issue, the understanding of Muhammad was limited.

2) On the other hand, Muhammad DID NOT have a thorough understanding of the previous books after receiving the revelation, he continued to have a lack of clarity, in which case the source was the People of the Book (10:94)

3) The Qur'an does not contain the contents of the previous books, only pieces of it. There is no evidence from the Qur'an that Muhammad had a significantly greater knowledge of the Book after the revelation of the Qur'an. (Which from what is increasingly understood by scholars was a process of revelations responding to real events, not a single revelation in a cave.)

4) The idea that before the revelations Muhammad didn't know the content of the Books, and afterwards he did, is removing all the natural element from the life of Muhammad. This is the result of later traditions, where Muhammad was increasingly elevated and removed from the context he lived.

Wasalam

Zack

["one religion" / the deen/message]

Shalom / peace GL...

In my view ... you are still not clear  ...

So you say;

"Qoran confirms all, details all,answers all the questions that one needs to ask about the "one religion" / the deen/message..."

Look at what I highlighted bold.

Now the Quran says:

"Whoever is an enemy to Allah and His angels and His messengers and Gabriel and Michael - then indeed, Allah is an enemy to the disbelievers." - 2.98

>>>Now Gabriel is mentioned in the Quran and we can understand a bit about Gabriel.....However Michael is only mentioned once. So .... I'm asking the question regarding the 'deen / message' as you so put it ....... What or who is Michael? Is he a person, place, angel, spirit ...who and who is being an enemy to him or it?

.....please don't refer me to Wikipedia ... wikipedia is not a scripture! ....

You say "So have a look at the sources and conclude your understanding from them as you are entitled to do so."

So don't you think the Quran is expecting the people who come in contact with the Quran to check some of their stories by the Bible?

Hi Duster,

This relates to the post I put a few days ago....   http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=2173.msg11192#msg11192

The Qur'an, speaks to it's audience, including those in Mecca, with the understanding that they already know the Bible and its stories, including belief in the Angels etc. (ie. not the Jalhilayah myth) If the Qur'an is speaking to a pagan audience who never knew any better, it is totally harsh spirited, unfair and mean. However the strong rebuking language of the Qur'an is used for people who should have known better, and very much connected to the belief of Muhammad, but have deviated from truth. The stronger the language, the closer the connection is to the audience.

Wasalam
Zack

Shalom / peace Zack.

In your view, you think this is something a prophet of Allah could do?

"One evening David got up from his bed and walked around on the roof of the palace. From the roof he saw a woman bathing. The woman was very beautiful, and David sent someone to find out about her. The man said, "Isn't this Bathsheba, the daughter of Eliam and the wife of Uriah the Hittite?" Then David sent messengers to get her. She came to him, and he slept with her. (She had purified herself from her uncleanness.) Then she went back home. The woman conceived and sent word to David, saying, "I am pregnant."... In the morning David wrote a letter to Joab and sent it with Uriah. In it he wrote, "Put Uriah in the front line where the fighting is fiercest. Then withdraw from him so he will be struck down and die."... When Uriah's wife heard that her husband was dead, she mourned for him."
[2 Samuel 11:2-26]

Hi Duster,

A few points in regards to this sin in the Bible...
- With the Hebrew scriptures covering a period of over a 1,000 years... yes, there are accounts such as these of leaders and Prophets, who being chosen as upright people, fell in to sin.
- Many of the Psalms, such as Psalms 51, is a response of repentance to these actions. If you have this occurrence, you don't have the Pslams of repentance.
- The fall in to sin by their leader, David, sometimes affected not just himself, but a whole Nation.
- In regards to sin, Jesus warned not to respond "How can they commit a sin of adultery like that." He says, "If you look upon a woman lustfully, consider it adultery." (Matthew 5:28). Whilst for much of mankind the inner secrets of the heart are hidden, the Bible says that is the beginning point of sin. The Bible talks able "Your self-righteousness, thinking "I am not as bad as that", is not "Filthy Rags" in the sight of Allah (Isaiah 64:6)
- In all of this, the message of the Bible is that God's nature is loving and compassionate. From the greatest of Kings, even the example of Nabi Daud above, all the way to the street sweeper, God loves, accepts and welcomes back as long as there is always a humble and repentant heart. The Prophets of God were upright people, but even they sinned, whether it be Moses or David.

[(1)]

Shalom / peace Zack ...

Just curious ... I've noted brother joseph say the following

Some insights that I personally extract from the verses are:

(1) Prophet Solomon is vindicated from any wrong-doing. This could be related to the myths and beliefs that existed regards him amongst the People of the Book of his lapse into idolatry (1 Kings 11) and / or any myths associated with his involvement in evil sorcery (evil magic).

The full link is here: http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=209.msg616#msg616

Hi Duster,

Thanks for your post. The above quote from Br. Joseph is written in 2011, and written not in any dogmatic sort of way. So does Br Joseph believe that the Qur'an corrected the account of Solomon in 1 Kings 11, and that account is error, it would be best for him to respond.

I suppose I approach the Qur'an not from a "Faith perspective", but logical, practical and historical perspective. My Muslim Professor in Islamic Studies used to tell me, "You can't just say its true, because the Qur'an says so." For the Qur'an, revealed in 620AD, to correct the documents passed down from generation to generation by the Hebrews from over 1,000 years earlier.....there has to be something really solid for it to base the correction on! The Qur'an encourages us to use our intellect, and yet in this case intellect is not used.

The view of the Qur'an "correcting" previous text is, in my view a result of being locked in to traditional way of thinking that was not originally present.  (using a phrase in a book I read by Abu Zayd recently).

As I mentioned a number of times, the Qur'an uses local oral stories, they could be fictive or true, so to fulful its purpose, repentance and embrace Tauhid belief. In this way it is guarding the core belief of the previous scriptures, The Lord our God is one. The Qur'an's primary purpose is NOT a historical narrative to bring correction to previous text.

All the best

Zack

Hi Nura,

OK, no problem... we interpret things differently, in that I honestly don't see Qur'an superceding or correcting the previous Books, nor even introducing Islam....but correcting local belief, which is a very different thing. Maybe one day Br. Joseph will contribute to this discussion in the future.

All the best

Zack

They are asked to read the Quran and refer to the Quran in order to understand which doctrines and laws became corrupted in their books

3. How can (after having believed Quran as Divine writ and to be from same God) they will oscillate between EXPLICIT & GRAPHIC (in Quran) and ALLEGORIC (at best in TORAH) on the Day of Reckoning and the Hereafter life?

The Quran is the book confirming the Bible, not the other way around. They are asked to compare and correct their Biblical beliefs and rites with the Quran. The Quran confirms for them, the truth in their scripture. If the Bible differs from the Quran regarding a belief , they  have to accept the word of the Quran because the Quran protects the Bible, not the other way around. The Quran is very clear when it is lifting or correcting a law for the Children of Israel, commenting on the nature of these laws,  divine ( they can consume animal fat now) or made up by humans ( monasticism).

Hi Nura,

I got a message that there was a reply whilst I was typing the  post below, which was yours I think. Your post about the Qur'an correcting the corrupt earlier Holy Books.... I am not sure how you can come to that conclusion. The issue repeatedly is the twisting of belief due to the lack of Holy Books available. (See verses quoted below). In regards to the discussion on the Quran law replacing the Torah law.....

1) In the verses above, you are mixing up 2 groups of people.
a) The first group, 6:146 and other such verses, are referring to Jews, and how Allah gave them the Torah that they need to follow. (See 4:160 and 5:68). This is very clear.

b) The second group is explained "If they choose to believe in Prophet Muhammad and the Quran, then they can be free from some of these burdens (16:118)", are those who choose to follow the Messenger.

This second group are predominantly Arab tribes, and predominantly warriors... who have different tribal laws and are now living together. Muhammad instructs them that they do not need to live under the law of the Jews, but to live by the instructions that they are reciting (the Qur'an).

Actually, this is very similar to Paul's theme in the Injil..not living under Jewish law. The revelation of the Quran is very practical... ethical teaching for tribes who had no law.

So the context is.... Instruction to Arab tribes, not to be burdened by Jewish law. The ethical instructions recited by united Arab tribes has nothing to do with it replacing or correcting the Torah. Using the instructions to his Arab followers to mean that Muhammad intended  these to be correction and replacement for the Torah creates all sorts of contradictions in the Qur'an.

For me, context is King, as against taking a verse out of the big picture context.

Regards

Zack

[The first group]

Salam Brother Zack,

From the following verse, we learn that Jews were forbidden certain food items:
6:146
And to those who are Jews We forbade every (animal) with claws, and of the cows and the sheep We forbade to them their fat except what carried their backs or the entrails or what (is) joined with the bone. That (is) their recompense for their rebellion. And indeed, We [surely] are truthful.

Further confirmation:

16:118
And to those who are Jews We have forbidden what We related to you before. And not We wronged them but they used (to) themselves wrong.

If they choose to believe in Prophet Muhammad and the Quran, then they can be free from some of these burdens, the following verse shows that God did use Muhammad and the Quran to suspend some laws for the Jews

7:157
Those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find him written with them in the Taurat and the Injeel. He commands them to the right and forbids them from the wrong, and he makes lawful for them the pure things and makes unlawful for them the impure things and he relieves from them their burden and the fetters which were upon them. So those who believe in him and honor him, and help him and follow the light which has been sent down with him. Those (are) [they] the successful ones."

This verse says it clearly, that now our food is lawful for the Children of Israel, alluding that those burdens are lifted and now they can consume what believers can consume, which include fat of animals:

005:005
"This day (all) the good things are made lawful for you; and the food of those who have been given the Book is lawful for you and your food is lawful for them; and the chaste women (Arabic: muh-sanatu) from among the believers and the chaste women (Arabic: muh-sanatu) from among those who have been given the Book before you (are lawful for you); when you have given them their bridal due (taking them in marriage), not fornicating nor taking them for secret concubines; and whoever denies faith, his work indeed is of no account, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers"

Brother, the Quran does sometimes change the laws, Quran is the furqan, God lifts some burdens from them and when it does, it mentions the nature of the law being lifted, whether the law was divine like in this case ( consumption of animal fat) or something they made up, like monasticism.

Thank you Nura for the verses presented above which are very helpful. I would like to mention a couple of points...

1) In the verses above, you are mixing up 2 groups of people.
a) The first group, 6:146 and other such verses, are referring to Jews, and how Allah gave them the Torah that they need to follow. (See 4:160 and 5:58). This is very clear.

b) The second group is explained "If they choose to believe in Prophet Muhammad and the Quran, then they can be free from some of these burdens (16:118)", are those who choose to follow the Messenger.

This second group are predominantly Arab tribes, and predominantly warriors... who have different tribal laws and are now living together. Muhammad instructs them that they do not need to live under the law of the Jews, but to live by the instructions that they are reciting (the Qur'an).

Actually, this is very similar to Paul's theme in the Injil..not living under Jewish law. The revelation of the Quran is very practical... ethical teaching for tribes who had no law.

So the context is.... Instruction to Arab tribes, not to be burdened by Jewish law. The ethical instructions recited by united Arab tribes has nothing to do with it replacing or correcting the Torah. Using the instructions to his Arab followers to mean that Muhammad intended  these to be correction and replacement for the Torah creates all sorts of contradictions in the Qur'an.

For me, context is King, as against taking a verse out of the big picture context.

Regards

Zack

Thanks for your reply Nura,

Do you have some references from the Quran where the Quran is correcting the laws of the Torah?

On the other hand, there would seem be a theme throughout the Qur'an recognizing the validity of the Torah, as is seen in the verses below. "What is law" for today has always been a complex topic, as it was in the days of Nabi Isa, where a theme throughout the Injil is Isa opposing the "Teachers of the Law" who burden the Hebrew masses with religious law. (Luke 11:41-44)

Zack

- Those to whom We [Allah] have sent the Book [Torah] study it as it should be studied: They are the ones that believe therein: [Qur'an, sura 2:121]
- "We [Allah] made a covenant with you [Children of Israel]  and raised the Mount [Sinai] above you, saying:  'Grasp fervently [the Torah] what We [Allah] have given you, and bear in minds its precepts, that you may guard yourselves against evil'". [Qur'an, sura 2:65]
- "We [Allah] gave the Book [Torah] to the Israelites and bestowed on them wisdom and prophethood.  We provided them with wholesome things and exalted them above the nations".[Qur'an, sura 45:17, "Kneeling"]