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Salamun Alayka,
Br Athman,

You made a keen observation, Mashallah. I would like to get some clarification too from both of you, inshallah

وَإِذْ أَخَذْنَا مِيثَاقَكُمْ وَرَفَعْنَا فَوْقَكُمُ الطُّورَ (2:63)
وَإِذْ أَخَذْنَا مِيثَاقَكُمْ وَرَفَعْنَا فَوْقَكُمُ الطُّورَ (2:93)
وَرَفَعْنَا فَوْقَهُمُ الطُّورَ (4:154)

وَإِذْ نَتَقْنَا الْجَبَلَ فَوْقَهُمْ كَأَنَّهُ ظُلَّةٌ (7:171)

(no Al particle) Tur Saina/Sineen
وَشَجَرَةً تَخْرُجُ مِنْ طُورِ سَيْنَاءَ (23:20)
وَطُورِ سِينِينَ (95:2)

I can relate your observation about Al-Jabal & Al-Tur synonymy but also noteworthy is - when al-Jabal apears (in 7:171) the word nataqna (shook) is used (not ra'fana (raised) as in 2:63, 93 & 4:151). Given Quran's precision word choice are these two different events, perhaps?
Also, I see you're taking Tur and al-Tur to be one and the same thing. However, the al particle is absent when it was used with Saina/Sineen. Aren't these two different then?

Hope this may bring to the top and draw attention of Sir Joseph to your year old inquiry :)

General Discussions / Re: Understanding 73:2, 73:20
« on: September 03, 2019, 07:12:54 AM »
Asalamu 3alykum student

The verse your inquiring about seems to catch a period where the prophet and some of those following him are staying up the night either studying or reading the Quran.

God is telling him that He is aware of the amount of time they are up during the night and that they do not keep count but God does.

Although God did instruct the prophet with a heavy job at the beginning of the chapter which requires the prophet to organize or arrange the Quran and possibly also reffering to the task of prophethood in a whole, God then seems to give some guidance or release the task that they were doing on how to study or read the Quran and said to only recite what is easy as there is those that are sick and those that are fighting and those that have to work and travel. 

It further clarifies that to recite what is easy and pray and pay the dues and  lend to God a goodly lending and that any thing you bring forth as good deeds you will find it with God.

So therefore this verse seems to be showing how the prophet and those with him how they were engaging with the Quran.

The tahajjad is in another chapter which was an additional requirement only for the prophet on either an additional prayer or a task imposed only for him which could also be reffering to reading the Quran.


Walekum salaam,
br Hamzeh,

Thanks for sharing your understanding of the ayahs  :)

General Discussions / Re: Understanding 73:2, 73:20
« on: September 03, 2019, 07:11:05 AM »
Peace br Wakas,

Thanks for the quick response  :)

Yes, I've read your[Salat] more than once (twice in fact in last two days). This is my observation, correct me if wrong:
1. The article in the main is focused on refuting the points/arguments presented by Sir Joseph Islam and not your view of 2 salat (although this can be gleaned with difficulty)
2. I didn't find the word "bond" at all much less as a definition of salat in the entire article.
3. I didn't find your translation of 2 salat verses or any other verses. You've only highlighted and discussed parts of the verses where Joseph Islam made inaccurate translation.

and hence my (last set of) questions, which you kindly and quickly responded (thanks). Please see my comments in blue underneath for further clarifications:
Re: 1) for the mumineen, yes. For verse translations see my articles. I am not aware of any verse contrary to this position.
 I didn't find your translation in [Salat]. Can you please list and translate all the verses that shows 2 salat concept?

2) this is elucidated in my salat article. Have you read it?
Yes, I did. As I said above I simply don't find the word bond in it but I did in your arguments in many threads on salat discussion. So I asked which bond is it you're referring to?

3) I'm not sure what you mean, but I do not take salat to mean prayer.
I'm totally confused now by your above statement. On one hand you seems to subscribe to salat al-fajr and salat al-Isha as prayers in the [Salat] article. Isn't it? If you do not take salat as prayer then what Quranic word you believe is used for 2 prayers that you believe to be correct? And what's the definition of the word salat?

4) I already provided you with an accurate translation of 17:78-79. Since you did not dispute anything in it, can I assume you agree with the following quote:
"Thus, the idea of "the tahajjud prayer" is not possible unless one considers it as a reading (also see 73:20)."
If so, it will likely make understanding 73:20 easier.

I'm still studying and researching on this subject (Tahajjud) and hence I started this thread with a request for clarifications.

"the tahajjud prayer" is a myth (predicated on an inaccurate translation).
That's exactly what I'm set out to find for myself, Inshallah :)

I humbly recommend you to make another article in addition to [problems of 5 salat] laying your argument for 2 prayers in flowing and complete form for readers benefit as you keep referring this link for all salat debates. This is just out of my humble observation.

General Discussions / Re: Understanding 73:2, 73:20
« on: September 02, 2019, 02:42:48 PM »
Thanks br Wakas. Are you referring to this?

As a starting point it is important to have an accurate translation of the verses: [source]

Establish the salat at the setting of the sun to the darkness of the night; and the reading (of) dawn; indeed, the reading (of) dawn is witnessed. [17:78]
And from the night so remain awake with it additionally for yourself, perhaps your Lord will raise you (to) a status praiseworthy. [17:79]

The "with it" (Arabic: bi hi) refers to a preceding masculine noun, and thus can ONLY refer to "reading" (Arabic: quran). Note that "salat" is a feminine noun. Thus, the idea of "the tahajjud prayer" is not possible unless one considers it as a reading (also see 73:20).

I do not see your translation of 73:20. Also, I've read your article refuting 5 salah position. I've some clarifications to be had from you, if you kindly provide:

  • You subscribe to 2 daily salah, is it correct? If so, kindly list all the verses with your translation that support your view, here.
  • The word salah means bond - what kind of bond you're taking - business bond, oath bond, religious bond, social/community bond? Does it change with the context?
  • Does salah also mean any of the 2 prayers you subscribe to or it always means some bond?
  • Lastly, what's Tahajjud according to your understanding? Is it prayer or not? And if 73:20 is not referring to tahajjud what's being asked in it?

Also, if you could please provide and keep answers here itself and not send me to any external links that would be great  :)

General Discussions / Re: Understanding 73:2, 73:20
« on: August 31, 2019, 02:06:44 AM »
Sorry you're right, I mean to say the word salah in 73:20 comes as a separate/new statement (command to uphold these 3: salah, zakah, lend loan) but not in the text where people interpret/interpolate it as nightly tahajjud salah. Hope this clear up my question based on that observation. Thanks for the correction.

(Word by Word)   73:2    
Stand (in) the night, except a little,

Traditional  73:2    
Stand all night ˹in prayer˺ except a little—

(Word by Word) 73:20
Indeed, your Lord knows that you stand (a little) less than two-thirds (of) the night, and half of it and a third of it and (so do) a group of those who (are) with you. And Allah determines the night and the day. He knows that not you count it, so He has turned to you, so recite what is easy of the Quran. He knows that there will be among you sick and others traveling in the land seeking of (the) Bounty (of) Allah, and others fighting in (the) way (of) Allah. So recite what is easy of it, and establish the prayer and give the zakah and loan Allah a loan goodly. And whatever you send forth for yourselves of good, you will find it with Allah. It (will be) better and greater (in) reward. And seek forgiveness (of) Allah. Indeed, Allah (is) Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

Traditional (as example) 73:20
Surely, your Lord knows that you stand (to pray at night) a little less than 2/3rd of the night, or ½ of the night, or 1/3rd of the night, also a party of those with you. And Allah measures the night and the day. He knows that you can never calculate it (unable to pray the whole night), so He has turned to you (in Mercy). So, recite from the Qur’an as much as may be easy for you. He knows that there may be some sick among you, and some others who travel through the land to seek Allah’s Bounty; and yet, some others who fight in Allah’s cause. So recite as much of it (Qur’an) as may be easy for you, establish prayer, pay obligatory charity, and lend to Allah a goodly loan. And whatever good you will send before you (leave the world) for yourselves, you will certainly find it with Allah, which is better and greater in reward. And seek the forgiveness of Allah. Surely, Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

General Discussions / Re: Verse 9:29
« on: August 30, 2019, 10:58:18 PM »
Walekum salaam,
Truth Seeker,

Sorry if I misread it. Wakas asked to message him so I assume there's another channel on the forum to draw one's attention.

General Discussions / Understanding 73:2, 73:20
« on: August 30, 2019, 11:04:04 AM »
Salaamun Alaykum,

Are the ayahs 73:2 & 73:20 is referring to special nightly "Salah" that has come to known as Tahajjud (17:79)? If so, the word salah is absent from both these verses, so how and why Qum is taken to mean standing in prayer only? Also, 73:4 refers Quran in order and then immediately in 73:5 it says it will reveal heavy word? Kind of confused and unable to reconcile with traditional interpretations.

Any help in clarification is appreciated.

General Discussions / Re: Verse 9:29
« on: August 29, 2019, 07:39:36 AM »
Salaam Br. Wakas,

Thanks for the response. I was out for a long time too.....
BTW, how do one message privately here from the forum?

Islamic Duties / Re: ZAKAT
« on: June 30, 2019, 01:06:45 PM »
Br Wakas,

What's your understanding of the term Zakat then? Kindly share the link/article if you've expressed it already elsewhere?


Walekum salaam,
Br Duster,

I couldn't agree  more :)

I'm not fishing disagreement for fun....just noted an odd thing and asked....however I learned a lot in debates and disagreements from two learned persons presenting their views - not just egoistic disagreement for the sake of disagreement.

Salaam Br. Duster,

Sorry to see you took my simple and sincere question (based on my observation) to Br. Hamzeh.
If you look at all my posts you wouldn't fail to notice my appreciation of Sir Joseph's work and his personal clarification to many of my questions.
I agree with you that we're (you and I) are in agreement with his works 99:1 - and yet you'll see the minor disagreements in my very few posts but I didn't see (could be there) any with active br. Hamzeh - so that's all the curiosity there's to it - shouldn't read more than that.....I feel it's completely unwarranted and harsh response from you.

Hope this clarifies.

Salaam br. Hamzeh,

You don't seem to disagree with Sir Joseph on any subject or even minor issues (at least I'm not aware of it). It would be interesting to know if you do, just curious  ;)


General Discussions / Re: "Muhammad was not from Mecca" by Sam Garrans
« on: April 21, 2019, 01:25:26 PM »
Salaam Br. Wakas,

Can you please let me know your thoughts (summary) on where Masjid al-Haram (Kaba) is and whether you agree with the subject "Muhammad was not from Mecca" or not?
The forum links your provided are taxing and confusing to follow.


General Discussions / Understanding 7:189-190
« on: October 22, 2018, 10:24:50 PM »
Salaamun Alaykum,

Does anyone know if 7:189-190 is referring specifically to Adam and Eve (PBUT) or a general sentiment of any fallible human is being captured in these verses?


General Discussions / Bayyinah Rasool
« on: October 04, 2018, 10:11:31 AM »
Salaamun Alaykum,

Did Sir Joseph discuss 98:1,2,4 anywhere? Who's the Rasool in 98:2- the messenger of the Quran or some Rasool after Quran's revelation?
Does ootoo alkitaba includes Quran believers (Muslims) too?


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