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General Discussions / Re: Ismaeel or Ishaaq (PBUT)
« on: September 12, 2018, 12:03:57 AM »
I forgot to qualify my end note:

With a view to discern the truth - it would be interesting and a pleasure to follow any debate you may differ on any subject with Sir Joseph  :D

General Discussions / Re: Ismaeel or Ishaaq (PBUT)
« on: September 11, 2018, 11:45:05 PM »
Thanks a lot dear Athman and Duster for your responses.

I used the words "in purpose" to counter an argument I did not think it as an academic dishonesty but using their choice of words as a line of argument.

‘af’alu ma tu’maru’ - ‘do as you are commanded’ still has to do with the ‘aslama’ (a unanimous decision into carrying out the sacrifice). In fact, this is the only place in the narration that points to the fact that both (Prophet Ibrahim and his son (pbut)) had mistaken the dream to be a command from God. However, the ‘aslama’ in this context should not necessarily be translated as ‘submission’ to God’s command rather, a ‘unanimous decision/submission’ into something (carrying out the sacrifice).
This is where I think I'm missing much needed Arabic grammar and so until that point if/when I acquire the skills I would rather not allege a great Prophet of a mistake especially when both Quran and OT (Ahada-huma) remained silent despite enormous time and opportunity to correct the two major adherents of their misunderstanding and also when Quran did not miss opportunity to point/correct many Prophets of their mistake. This is where as you said repeatedly, we agree to disagree  :)

Let's end the discussion here.

Mashallah you're blessed with knowledge, wisdom and debate skill and I'm assuming you're also gifted with knowledge of Arabic language - it would be interesting and a pleasure to follow any debate you may differ on any subject with Sir Joseph  :D

General Discussions / Re: Ismaeel or Ishaaq (PBUT)
« on: September 11, 2018, 02:50:28 AM »
Salaamun Alayka
Br Athman,

I apologize as I never meant to convey you didn't took seriousness/sensibility of the incident. Let me clear few things again:

  • I did not raise question on 2nd part of the story at all - whether the command was/wasn't from God
  • I generally seek clarification on things that aren't clear to me even after thoroughly reading Sir Jospeh's article and all relevant threads (I must admit my search failed me more than once to yield good result, the thread you shared [Jazak Allah Khair :)]  sealed the deal for me as far as main query: Isaac vs Ismaeel (PBUT) and I humbly believe Sir Jospeh's article needs this point included: Verse 37:109 even recognises specific salutations on Prophet Abraham for his trial, however there is no mention whatsoever of Prophet Ishmael
  • I did not raise question on 2nd part of the story at all - whether the command was/wasn't from God
  • I am here as a humble student of the Quran befitting my user/profile name , not other way around :)

As far as other things, I completely concur with you/your arguments on Reference #2 and on Reference#1, I made my argument and left the discussion seeking Sir Joseph's view on the subject quoting his understanding and definition of Liqa....whether or not he applies & extend it consistently to this subject.....still waiting  :)

This is exactly what I wanted to see as an answer to my question (rephrasing here): Whom/what do you think the source of the dream was?

To ascertain His orders/commands, Allah always confirms them (22:52) over Satan’s, for His will always prevail (58:21). In Prophet Ibrahim’s (pbuh) case, while God intercedes a possible Satan’s guile for a concession (37:107), He makes prevail His will (no actual sacrifice). However, the piety/reverence/submissiveness (taqwa) portrayed by Prophet Ibrahim (pbuh) is acknowledged and rewarded (37:105) as is always (22:37).

I must admit the answer is more convincing than all those lengthy discussions...however I'm still not 100% convinced it wasn't from God simply because I don't see/take this command as an evil/unethical/immoral at all. It was a momentary but momentous test for a lesson for believers captured in OT and Quran for posterity.

If you still disagree with that argument then how would you explain the following?
  • Did Quran say the dream was from Satan?
  • What was the original dream before Satan's corruption? In your words: He makes prevail His will (no actual sacrifice) - what was God's original will in this whole incident?
  • Why did God allow satanic inspiration to the point of slaughtering?
  • Why didn't God correct the corrupted story of OT in the Quran and allowed to remain ambiguous for dual interpretation?
  • Did Quran say they "submitted in purpose" or simply"submitted"?
  • If the command was from Satan and not God as captured in OT, why Quran only corrected the direct command part and said it was a dream without mentioning the source (which was implied in Ismaeel's words as is the style of Quran)?
  • When Christian Monks took upon themselves celibacy Quran not only mentions it but corrected it saying God never imposed but allowed it - why did God not say the similar to Ibrahim AS or addressing us saying Ibrahim associated it to Us while it wasn't from Me or something of that sort?
  • Lastly, in Sir Joseph's words Furthermore, the Quran often states that it is also a 'confirmation' (musaddiq) of the previous scriptures, certainly implying the overlap of narratives and the theological understanding prevalent during the Prophetic ministry amongst the People of the Book.

    'tasdiq' – “but it is a confirmation of what is before it”  (10:37); 'musaddiq' – “that I have sent down, confirming that which is with you” (2:41), et al.

    Therefore, one may ask the valid question whether the Quran was confirming the prevalent views of the Jewish and Christian communities with regards the source of the command (being divine & direct) to Ibrahim AS?

(1). If it is to be understood that God can instruct 'anything' including evil/unethical things in the sense unjustifiably for purposes of tests, with the condition that it would otherwise be intervened, can one cite at least a single unequivocal instance of such a possibility from the Qur'an to substantiate such a claim?
You may find parallel in the grand scheme/purpose of creation (creation of Satan and his progeny as they're and Adam and his progeny as we're) - isn't creation of Satan and allowing him to mislead mankind to the brim of Hell more evil (Nauzubillah) than a father's test of love and loyalty?

Your explanation of 18:74 is still unsatisfactory from ordinary human and even from a great Prophet's perspective and to your own standard of "justified killing", regardless of theme killing an innocent boy is still shocking and an event of mocking God for the atheist and disbelievers alike for the same reason as yours. 

Seeing this conundrum people like br Wakas are forced to interpret the whole event completely out of box  :D

In the end we're all good Alhumdulillah, those who see it as evil disassociate it from God and those (like me) in the grand scheme of things doesn't necessarily see it as an evil at all but a test (2:155) for ordinary and direct and severe for extra-ordinary like Ibrahim AS.

General Discussions / Re: Ismaeel or Ishaaq (PBUT)
« on: September 10, 2018, 12:08:31 PM »
Dear Athman,
Peace on you as well,

It's not from God simply because it's "unethical and evil" so may I what/who's the source of the dream in your understanding?

General Discussions / Re: Ismaeel or Ishaaq (PBUT)
« on: September 10, 2018, 12:49:55 AM »
Walekumus salaam,
Dear Sir Joseph,

Indeed I'm grateful for all the forum members who share their knowledge and wisdom (spending their valuable time) in helping us understand the Quran better. Thank you for making this platform available for this sort of discussion and I totally understand and respect your preoccupation and commitments and your deliberate silence  :)

I really appreciate if you could throw light on questions that goes without answer or remain open with follow-up questions - couple of threads I initiated is looking for your help if you will ;D

General Discussions / Re: Ismaeel or Ishaaq (PBUT)
« on: September 09, 2018, 06:22:43 AM »
Thanks dear Athman, my forum search somehow doesn't yield all relevant threads - the thread you kidnly shared clears up my contention and now Alhumdulillah I'm inclined to accept it was Isaac as OT mentions clearly and Quran acknowledge implicitly in its own style.

Why is this reference 'exclusive' only to Prophets Abraham and Isaac and not 'cumulative' with a view to include Prophet Ishmael, who after all, was ready to be sacrificed and is subject the continuing theme of what the Quran seems to be narrating?

"We blessed him and Isaac..."

However, I'm still not convinced why God being God could/would not ask to lay one's life or one's loved ones life in order to test. Are we not restricting God's realm (Nauzubillah) of what He can and cannot ask? God in His infinite knowledge and wisdom would have intervened and stopped it. So, my humble understanding is
  • The dream was from God Himself to test Ibrahim AS to the point of sacrifice and not to allow the sacrifice itself (this doesn't conflict with 5:32 or associating anything immoral with God)
  • The sacrificial son was Ishaaq AS
This way not only does Quran corrects Biblical narrative but it also confirms it. The dream was never a command to kill or a sacrifice as a religious rite (for Ibrahim AS and posterity) and was never meant to be of that nature. It was a mere test from God, otherwise it's hard to swallow as to how Ibrahim AS being a person of immense rationality would go this far to slaughter his son on a mere non-Divine or obscure dream. The words of Ismael AS ""O my father, do as you're commanded" is a strong indicator of the source/story he heard from his father. Wallahu Alam!

General Discussions / Re: Tawrat to Musa AS
« on: September 09, 2018, 01:51:02 AM »
Walekumus Salaam,
Dear Ocyid,

You don't have to be sorry for detailed explanation of your understanding of the subject, if anything I'm grateful for anyone/everyone who responds to my query even if it is addressing directly to Sir Joseph.
I'm very thankful to you for the time and effort you put in to answer my query. I humbly think you first study closely Sir Joseph's articles on every subject and then based on your prior studies and understanding you can either get clarifications or challenge him purely from Quran's basis if you differ (on this forum, the main purpose would then be better served I trust).

l-kitāba (the "Book" or "Scripture" in verses I mentioned above) wal-ḥik'mata (and [the] wisdom) wal-tawrāta (and the Taurat) wal-injīla (and the Injeel)

Sir Joseph thinks otherwise (2 and not 4 as most of us think)

The significance of the above verse is evident. The ‘al-Kitab’ (definite noun) is strongly equated with the Torah and the Injeel with ‘Wisdom’.

That still begs the question if Torah is strongly equated with al-Kitab why Quran never mentioned Torah with Musa AS even once while it freely uses its equivalent (synonym?) in associating it with him?

All I know with confidence is Quran's choice of words is perfect and with laser precision, which Sir Joseph himself banks on heavily to rightly dismiss many non-Quranic notions and beliefs held by Muslims.

General Discussions / Re: Ismaeel or Ishaaq (PBUT)
« on: September 04, 2018, 11:25:49 PM »
Salaam Duster,

Thanks for your clarification and fetching and sharing links on the subject.
I need Sir Joseph's help to reconcile few things from his understanding of this story:
1. Why he's rejecting OT's narration (it was God's command) which Quran strongly and implicitly confirmed whilst correction (a dream and not direct) (All of which is part of beauty and style of the Quran)
2. Why he think it's Ishaaq (isn't this from OT?) while Quran is not explicit in naming the sacrificial son? Why he think 'Basharna' (good news) in 37:101 means birth of a child and 'Basharna' is only good news but not actual new birth in 37:112?
3. Why he think God would not command killing/sacrificing anyone (4:66 gives that possibility and 18:74 preemptive killing) in order to test their faith and true love and loyalty? Why can't we interpret the dream was shown from God (as a lesson for posterity) to demonstrate Ibrahim's AS true love & devotion in purpose and never in actuality as in His knowledge God would have intervened the slaughter anyway?

It came to pass after these things that God tested Abraham and said to him, “Abraham!”

He said, “Here I am.”

He said, “Now take your son, your only son, whom you love, Isaac, and go into the land of Moriah and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains that I will point out to you.” (Genesis, 22:1-2)

it becomes difficult to reconcile why a name would be necessary in 37.112 when it is absent in 37.101, if both verses are capturing the birth of new children

In my humble understanding, Quran is correcting OT and would be Muslims here to highlight it wasn't Ishaaq as OT had it or Ismail as Muslims believe it but underscoring a son is a son slaughtering any son is unimaginable test and not simple as you (Duster) think even for extra-ordinary Ibrahim AS to just submit to God's command as his own life wasn't asked to lay down (Had that been the case I would believe Ibrahim AS wouldn't even blink for a moment). He had to consult and get his son's consent.

General Discussions / Re: Ismaeel or Ishaaq (PBUT)
« on: August 21, 2018, 11:57:33 AM »
Salaam Duster,

Yes, I agree and that is fine. The objection/question to Sir Joseph's article is
1. Dream is from God (apparently)
2. The slaughter son was not Ishaaq AS (could be Ismail AS or one of elder son before Ishaaq's birth).

General Discussions / Re: Ismaeel or Ishaaq (PBUT)
« on: August 21, 2018, 04:37:04 AM »
The key word I did not use in my first post is "chronological" - the events seems to be in chronological order and also another question is if the dream is not from God simply on the ground that God doesn't issue such test/command then how do you reconcile the killing of the boy at the hands of servant of God in surah Kahf while imparting Musa AS knowledge. He said he didn't do all of this on his own but on God's command.

General Discussions / Re: 27:40 Throne carrier?
« on: August 18, 2018, 12:47:55 AM »
Walekumus salaam,
Dear Athman,

Thanks again for sharing your understanding and parting wisdom. My argument was exactly as yours:

"Said one [Person 1] who had knowledge from the Scripture, 'I [Person 1] will bring it to you [Person 2] before your [Person 2] glance returns to you [Person 2].' And when [Person 2] saw it placed before him [Person 2], he [Person 2] said, 'This is from the favor of my [Person 2] Lord to test me [Person 2] whether I [Person 2] will be grateful or ungrateful. And whoever [Person 'Any'] is grateful - his [Person 'Any'] gratitude is only for [the benefit of] himself [Person 'Any']. And whoever [Person 'Any'] is ungrateful - then indeed, my [Person 2] Lord is Free of need and Generous.' "(Qur'an, An-Naml 27:40)

And my Arabic grammar is at ABC level  ;) but sometimes it is exactly what one needs - perhaps  :)

Jazak Allah Khair.

General Discussions / 27:40 Throne carrier?
« on: August 14, 2018, 07:50:37 AM »
Salaamun Alaykum,
Dear members/Sir Joseph,

Who brought the throne of the queen in the blink of an eye? Was person with the "knowledge of the Book" was Sulaiman AS himself? If so, does Quran's language support such claim? I was given reference that Fakhruddin Raazi hold this view and made some arguments including grammar to throw support to this view. Kindly share your thoughts.


General Discussions / Re: Hajj for People of the Book?
« on: August 14, 2018, 07:45:46 AM »
Thanks Sstikstof. Quran doesn't treat it as a lost practice and as argued by Sir Joseph it has just re-instituted it from precincts of Jerusalem to Mecca hence my questions to him specifically  :)
At the time of re-institution were people of the book performing Hajj or not? And after re-institution what are they supposed to uphold? Hajj months are well-known tells Quran, well-known to whom?
Again these on questions to Sir Joseph to get clarity around his article on Hajj but I do still appreciate your time for sharing your thoughts  :)

General Discussions / Re: Ismaeel or Ishaaq (PBUT)
« on: August 14, 2018, 07:33:20 AM »
Thanks Br Wakas, I did not find the verse being discussed or debated when looked up/searched with verse number.

One of your questions which matches mine went unanswered by Sir Joseph. Anyway, I do think it was literal slaughtering. If Bible is not read into this passage it is hard to find support of Ishaq being the sacrificial offering but Ismael is also at best an implied outcome.

I'm curious to know his view on these begging questions.

General Discussions / 39:6 - cattles sent down?
« on: August 07, 2018, 10:04:50 AM »
Salaamun Alaykum,

I was kind of surprised to read (careless in paying attention before) the cattles were sent (Anzala) down for us? Some translate Anzala as "gave", "created", "made" etc and most keep it loyal to the text "Sent down". I didn't find Sir Joseph discussing this in the forum as no one seems to raise this curiosity??

And what's up with the number 8? Any particular reason, clue?

Looking forward to hear your insights into this part of the ayah.

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