Salaamun Alayka
Br Athman,
I apologize as I never meant to convey you didn't took seriousness/sensibility of the incident. Let me clear few things again:
- I did not raise question on 2nd part of the story at all - whether the command was/wasn't from God
- I generally seek clarification on things that aren't clear to me even after thoroughly reading Sir Jospeh's article and all relevant threads (I must admit my search failed me more than once to yield good result, the thread you shared [Jazak Allah Khair
] sealed the deal for me as far as main query: Isaac vs Ismaeel (PBUT) and I humbly believe Sir Jospeh's article needs this point included: Verse 37:109 even recognises specific salutations on Prophet Abraham for his trial, however there is no mention whatsoever of Prophet Ishmael - I did not raise question on 2nd part of the story at all - whether the command was/wasn't from God
- I am here as a humble student of the Quran befitting my user/profile name , not other way around
As far as other things, I completely concur with you/your arguments on Reference #2 and on Reference#1, I made my argument and left the discussion seeking Sir Joseph's view on the subject quoting his understanding and
definition of Liqa....whether or not he applies & extend it consistently to this subject.....still waiting
This is exactly what I wanted to see as an answer to my question (rephrasing here): Whom/what do you think the source of the dream was?
To ascertain His orders/commands, Allah always confirms them (22:52) over Satan’s, for His will always prevail (58:21). In Prophet Ibrahim’s (pbuh) case, while God intercedes a possible Satan’s guile for a concession (37:107), He makes prevail His will (no actual sacrifice). However, the piety/reverence/submissiveness (taqwa) portrayed by Prophet Ibrahim (pbuh) is acknowledged and rewarded (37:105) as is always (22:37).
I must admit the answer is more convincing than all those lengthy discussions...however I'm still not 100% convinced it wasn't from God simply because I don't see/take this command as an evil/unethical/immoral at all. It was a momentary but momentous test for a lesson for believers captured in OT and Quran for posterity.
If you still disagree with that argument then how would you explain the following?
- Did Quran say the dream was from Satan?
- What was the original dream before Satan's corruption? In your words: He makes prevail His will (no actual sacrifice) - what was God's original will in this whole incident?
- Why did God allow satanic inspiration to the point of slaughtering?
- Why didn't God correct the corrupted story of OT in the Quran and allowed to remain ambiguous for dual interpretation?
- Did Quran say they "submitted in purpose" or simply"submitted"?
- If the command was from Satan and not God as captured in OT, why Quran only corrected the direct command part and said it was a dream without mentioning the source (which was implied in Ismaeel's words as is the style of Quran)?
- When Christian Monks took upon themselves celibacy Quran not only mentions it but corrected it saying God never imposed but allowed it - why did God not say the similar to Ibrahim AS or addressing us saying Ibrahim associated it to Us while it wasn't from Me or something of that sort?
- Lastly, in Sir Joseph's words Furthermore, the Quran often states that it is also a 'confirmation' (musaddiq) of the previous scriptures, certainly implying the overlap of narratives and the theological understanding prevalent during the Prophetic ministry amongst the People of the Book.
'tasdiq' – “but it is a confirmation of what is before it” (10:37); 'musaddiq' – “that I have sent down, confirming that which is with you” (2:41), et al.
Therefore, one may ask the valid question whether the Quran was confirming the prevalent views of the Jewish and Christian communities with regards the source of the command (being divine & direct) to Ibrahim AS??
(1). If it is to be understood that God can instruct 'anything' including evil/unethical things in the sense unjustifiably for purposes of tests, with the condition that it would otherwise be intervened, can one cite at least a single unequivocal instance of such a possibility from the Qur'an to substantiate such a claim?
You may find parallel in the grand scheme/purpose of creation (creation of Satan and his progeny as they're and Adam and his progeny as we're) - isn't creation of Satan and allowing him to mislead mankind to the brim of Hell more evil (Nauzubillah) than a father's test of love and loyalty?
Your explanation of 18:74 is still unsatisfactory from ordinary human and even from a great Prophet's perspective and to your own standard of "justified killing", regardless of theme killing an innocent boy is still shocking and an event of mocking God for the atheist and disbelievers alike for the same reason as yours.
Seeing this conundrum people like br Wakas are forced to interpret the whole event completely out of box
In the end we're all good Alhumdulillah, those who see it as evil disassociate it from God and those (like me) in the grand scheme of things doesn't necessarily see it as an evil at all but a test (2:155) for ordinary and direct and severe for extra-ordinary like Ibrahim AS.
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but sometimes it is exactly what one needs - perhaps