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[Then when he had crossed it along with those who believed with him, they said, "There is no power for us today against Goliath and his soldiers."]

Assalamu alaikum brothers and sisters,

Here is 2:249 ;

And when Saul went forth with the soldiers, he said, "Indeed, Allah will be testing you with a river. So whoever drinks from it is not of me, and whoever does not taste it is indeed of me, excepting one who takes [from it] in the hollow of his hand." But they drank from it, except a [very] few of them. Then when he had crossed it along with those who believed with him, they said, "There is no power for us today against Goliath and his soldiers." But those who were certain that they would meet Allah said, "How many a small company has overcome a large company by permission of Allah . And Allah is with the patient."

Now I've read lots of translations which seem to differ in the translation of the part I highlighted in bold.

They said: " There is no power for us today against Goliath and his soldiers."

Now, who said this ? Those who drank from the river and left behind ? or Those who were with Saul who crossed the river. Many translations say in parentheses :

(those left behind) said:

But that doesn't sound quite right to me. Because ALLAH (swt) says, most of them drank from it and a few left who didn't. So Saul and his men who crossed the river must have been the minority.  They say "we have no power today" maybe they were feeling weak because they didn't drink from the river or because maybe they were small in number. Moreover;

But those who were certain that they would meet Allah said, "How many a small company has overcome a large company by permission of Allah . And Allah is with the patient.

This small company must be those who crossed the river not the ones who were left behind, in my opinion.

But translations sound like; after Saul and his men crossed the river, those who were left behind said "we have no power today" and some of them said: "How many a small company has overcome a large company by permission of Allah . And Allah is with the patient.". But this doesn't sound right. Because they were the ones who failed the test and they were not the minority but the majority.

What do you think about this ? Especially someone who knows arabic grammar well... Maybe I'm wrong in my assumptions. ALLAH(swt) knows best and may He guide us to the right path.

Salam.

Salam Nura,

You explained your thoughts very well and in detail. Alhamdulillah. Thank you for the clarification. May ALLAH (swt) protect us all from crossing the line and misjudge people. May He also protect us from being arrogant. May HE guide us if we are wrong.

Take care.

[then it is those who are the disbelievers]

Salam Ilker

Yes about the permission to make assumptions about others' faith, this is applicable when one says that he/she is a believer. In this context we are trusting the women and providing them with shelter and protection which is a kind and noble thing to do.

But there are also verses where we are asked not to pray for forgiveness of unbelievers/kafirs, there the context is different. Those people are verified and God certified disbelievers/kafirs. The prophets were informed of their disbelief. This is no small matter. Calling someone ' kafir ' is not a small matter. The true state of one's heart cannot be known now and to actually discriminate and not pray for forgiveness of an unbeliever loved one's soul is questionable. The exact moment when a person becomes a kafir is only known to God. But, when it comes to laws where we are supposed to be harsh with unbelievers, we have to be sure that the person is a kafir. Otherwise we will be transgressing. Not all unbelievers are kafirs. We are asked to not ask for forgiveness for people who we know for sure are kafirs. This does not apply for people who are unbelievers because of lack of knowledge or access to knowledge about God and faith etc.

http://quransmessage.com/articles/understanding%20kufr%20FM3.htm

Salam all

Dear Nura, you say:

"The exact moment when a person becomes a kafir is only known to God. But, when it comes to laws where we are supposed to be harsh with unbelievers, we have to be sure that the person is a kafir. Otherwise we will be transgressing. Not all unbelievers are kafirs. We are asked to not ask for forgiveness for people who we know for sure are kafirs. This does not apply for people who are unbelievers because of lack of knowledge or access to knowledge about God and faith etc."

I agree. I was trying to say that sometimes we have to know for sure that the person is kafir or not. We simply can't guess away. But we can have enough information under certain conditions. I quoted 60:10 about the women, because the ayah is about knowing/examining someone's heart and faith. ALLAH (swt) also describes who the disbelievers are in general:

"Indeed, We sent down the Torah, in which was guidance and light. The prophets who submitted [to Allah ] judged by it for the Jews, as did the rabbis and scholars by that with which they were entrusted of the Scripture of Allah , and they were witnesses thereto. So do not fear the people but fear Me, and do not exchange My verses for a small price. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed - then it is those who are the disbelievers." (5:44)

Alhamdulillah. Thanks for your time.

It was revealed to these prophets by Allah that these people were people of hell. So, the prophets and believers were asked to react accordingly with them. But, currently we do not have a prophet among us, so we do not know the state of a person's faith or heart, nor are we informed who belongs to hell. We cannot apply these verses today. These were revealed to deal with a certain group of people who existed during the times of the prophet. In today's world, since we do not know for sure who is a true kafir, we can forgive them and pray for their guidance and forgiveness. Infact, we can do so because of verse 45:14.

assalamu alaikum all

Dear Nura, while i can say i agree with the rest of your answer generally, i don't think i can say the same for the part i quoted from your post. I honestly think it's quite bold to say some ayat cannot be applied by Muslims today. Do you mean some ayat are not relevant to our time ? Even though some ayat cannot be applied "in practice" today, they still have serious messages for Muslims from all times.  For example this one:

O you who have believed, do not enter the houses of the Prophet except when you are permitted for a meal, without awaiting its readiness. But when you are invited, then enter; and when you have eaten, disperse without seeking to remain for conversation. Indeed, that [behavior] was troubling the Prophet, and he is shy of [dismissing] you. But Allah is not shy of the truth. And when you ask [his wives] for something, ask them from behind a partition. That is purer for your hearts and their hearts. And it is not [conceivable or lawful] for you to harm the Messenger of Allah or to marry his wives after him, ever. Indeed, that would be in the sight of Allah an enormity. (33:53)

We don't have the Prophet (pbuh) among us today but should we just overlook this ayah ? Or does it still cover a message to pay attention to ? I think it does. We learn that no one should take advantage of someone who is so kind and merciful that they are really shy of dismissing us.


Anyway, let's get back to the subject. We do not the person's heart for sure or where his final destination will be, yes. But what if a person openly announces that he rejects the message or prophets or the existence of Allah ? What if they are clearly and openly in shirk ? What if they admit what's in their heart ? There are tons of ayat that organize the relationship between believers and non-believers/deniers. If we can't have enough idea about their status then how are we going to adapt ourselves to those ayat of Allah ?

For example, how should we think about this ayah:

"O you who have believed, when the believing women come to you as emigrants, examine them. Allah is most knowing as to their faith. And if you know them to be believers, then do not return them to the disbelievers; they are not lawful [wives] for them, nor are they lawful [husbands] for them. But give the disbelievers what they have spent. And there is no blame upon you if you marry them when you have given them their due compensation. And hold not to marriage bonds with disbelieving women, but ask for what you have spent and let them ask for what they have spent. That is the judgement of Allah ; He judges between you. And Allah is Knowing and Wise." (60:10)

ALLAH (swt) says He knows their faith best. But He also says that we can have an idea, sometimes enough proof to act upon. He says: "examine them", "when the believing women came to you", "if you know them to be believers"...

Ofc I could be wrong with my thoughts. ALLAH (swt) knows best. May He guide us.

salam

I don't think people who lived hundreds of years ago thought about something which produces its own light when they read the word "lamp". They must have thought simply something that gives light, something that illuminates its surroundings.

assalamu alaikum folks

Here are two topics that might give you a different perspective inshaALLAH. May ALLAH (swt) guide us to His path.

http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=829.0

http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=2040.0

Salam

I know it's been quite long since the last post but i'd like to hear what you think about the difference in 2:125.

Quoting from free-minds.org:

2:125 in Hafs is وَاتَّخِذوْا "WatakhIzu" (You shall take) / In Warsh it is وَاتَّخَذوْا "WatakhAzu" (They have taken/made).

In 2:125 the subject being addressed is that of "Maqam Ibrahim". One version gives a command/order, while the other states a historical fact/observation.


what do you think ? It's really confusing.

Salam brother

Alhamdulillah. What a nice and detailed post with great references Thanks for your time. It's great JZK.

Assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullah wa barakatuhu.

[assumption]

salam folks,

What's the meaning of "than" or "zan" in the Quran ? I've seen different meanings in different ayat. Some of them meant "to believe" some of them "to assume"?

ALLAH (swt) tells us that some "zan" is "ism":

"O you who have believed, avoid much [negative] assumption. Indeed, some assumption is sin. And do not spy or backbite each other. Would one of you like to eat the flesh of his brother when dead? You would detest it. And fear Allah ; indeed, Allah is Accepting of repentance and Merciful." (49:12)

But in 2:46 this word is used instead of "ya'lemoon":

"Who are certain that they will meet their Lord and that they will return to Him."  (Allatheena yathunnoonaannahum mulaqoo rabbihim waannahum ilayhi rajiAAoon)

Why do you think this word (to assume) is used, instead of "to know" in 2:46 ? Why is it not "ya'lemoon" but "yathunnoon" ?

[While it was smoke !]

alaykum salam

brother yahya i suggest you to keep calm and stay patient  perhaps we need more time to understand these ayat correctly inshaAllah. keep praying to ALLAH (swt) and ask for help. We all must !

When it's about the earth and the skies above, i think we have to always include 49:9-10-11 and 12 in our study! These are some fascinating ayat about the creation of the earth, atmosphere and the outer space (the sky above us).

"Say, "Do you indeed disbelieve in He who created the earth in two days and attribute to Him equals? That is the Lord of the worlds.

And He placed on the earth firmly set mountains over its surface, and He blessed it and determined therein its [creatures'] sustenance in four days without distinction - for [the information] of those who ask.

Then turned He to the heaven when it was smoke, and said unto it and unto the earth: Come both of you, willingly or loth. They said: We come, obedient.

Then He ordained them seven heavens in two Days and inspired in each heaven its mandate; and We decked the nether heaven with lamps, and rendered it inviolable. That is the measuring of the Mighty, the Knower.""

In 41:11 ALLAH (swt) talks about the sky above, while it was not yet ready and maybe not completed its final stage, but already there, existing ! While it was smoke ! Then in 41:12 He says He "ordained them seven heavens". This is quite fascinating

I just wanted to remind you of these also

ALLAH (swt) knows best. May He guide us to the right way of thinking and understanding His ayat.

[its night]

I can only tell you my understanding of 79:29. What I personally think is that in 79:29, ALLAH (swt) talks about "sama", the sky, from our perspective as humans. We usually use the word "sky" to describe "atmosphere and beyond" at the same time. We don't talk about the atmosphere and the universe beyond it, separately. We look up and we see the blue sky (atmosphere) and when it gets dark we see the stars, the sun, the moon (the outer space beyond the atmosphere).

"And He darkened its night and extracted its brightness." (79:29)

When we take "sky" as "outer universe" here in this ayah, then how should we explain "its night and its brightness" ? The universe is dark itself We, here on Earth, get bright mornings because of the atmosphere. Without it, we would experience mornings with a bright sun at the top but in a very dark sky. We wouldn't have any of those fantastic looking sunset/sunrise redness over the horizon. Take the Moon with no atmosphere for instance:



That's what i think of 79:29. Sorry if i confused you more by the way

[a rainstorm from the sky within which is darkness, thunder and lightning.]

I agree with everything apart from the atmosphere bit because the stars are in the lowest heaven so they can't be in the lowest atmosphere also unless heavens mean different things in different verses like 41 : 12 means universe among 79:27-30 means atmosphere is that possible

salam

Of course. In the ayat about the stars being in the lowest heaven, outer space comes to mind. What i'm saying is, depending on the context, "sama or samawat" might also be referring to the atmosphere or the layers of the atmosphere. For example look at 2:19 and 2:22 (word is "sama", singular) is directly indicating atmosphere:

"Or [it is] like a rainstorm from the sky within which is darkness, thunder and lightning. They put their fingers in their ears against the thunderclaps in dread of death. But Allah is encompassing of the disbelievers." (2:19)

"[He] who made for you the earth a bed [spread out] and the sky a ceiling and sent down from the sky, rain and brought forth thereby fruits as provision for you. So do not attribute to Allah equals while you know [that there is nothing similar to Him]." (2:22)

The word "sama" is used in also 50:6 but ALLAH (swt) says "We adorned it."  So if you take "sama" as atmosphere then what to think about this ayah ? I mean, I think they are used interchangebly throughout the Quran.

"Have they not looked at the heaven above them - how We structured it and adorned it and [how] it has no rifts?" (50:6)

ALLAH (swt) knows best.

[after]

salam yahya

I have little knowledge about this. Still i want to share it with you. May ALLAH (swt) guide us to the right understanding if we are wrong.

As far as i know the word "thumma" in 2:29 could also be used in the meaning of "moreover, besides". This word mostly indicates "order" but not always. Perhaps you'll find this link useful:

http://www.understanding-islam.com/the-meaning-of-thumma-and-yawm/

Besides this, I personally think words related to the skies, "sama, samawat" might refer not only to the higher dimensions and other skies in space but also to the atmosphere. ALLAH (swt) knows best.

Finally in 79:27 we see that ALLAH (swt) mentions "sky" first. In 79:30 we see "bada zalika" meaning "after this". So, that could mean the earth was created after the "sama".

Again, these are just my thoughts.

Asalamu Alykum Ilker

There is a article concerning the verse you have shared by brother Joseph which you might find useful Insha'Allah

Salam

THE SEVEN OFT-REPEATED
http://quransmessage.com/articles/oft-repeated%20FM3.htm

salam brother Hamzeh.

Alhamdulillah. Thank you for the link. It is useful. While I agree that the word "saba" could usually mean "several" besides "seven" , I don't think I can put "several" anywhere i see the word "saba". It could also be used with its literal meaning. So "the seven" actually might refer to Fateha... I mean why not ?  Don't we often repeat it in our lives ? I'm not necessarily talking about our daily prayers.
"Guide us to the right path... " Perhaps we repeat those ayat in Fateha more than others generally! So, both notions are logical in my opinion.

["And We have certainly given you, [O Muhammad], seven of the often repeated [verses] and the great Qur'an."]

Assalamu alaikum guys,

So what do you think about 15:87:

"And We have certainly given you, [O Muhammad], seven of the often repeated [verses] and the great Qur'an."

What do you think those often repeated seven ayat are ? I'm asking about this ayah because of its relevance to the recitation of the Quran in daily prayers.