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Salam brother

Why makes you think "Allahu Akbar" isn't Quranic ?

Can't we think of it as "74:3" being put into practice with words i.e. gloryfing Allah (swt), saying that He (swt) is "above" all things that comes to mind ?

[the magnitude]

Salam all,

Firstly, i must say that i've read brother Joseph's article on the subject where he talked about ayat and specific words related to this question. However i'm not fully satisfied with some of his comments. I have different opinions on the issue and I would like to talk about them inshaAllah.

About the question mentioned in the article: "how can a merciful God punish His creation in an eternal fire for sins they may have committed in a relatively short period of life on Earth or if their balance of scales did not quite fall in their favour?"

For me, the "duration" of the sin that's been committed is not the only thing to be considered when it comes to its punishment. Frankly, I don't quite understand this "eternal punishment, limited life on earth" comparison. Pulling the trigger takes just a second, but killing an innocent human being is like killing all humanity. Now think about the magnitude of the punishment for killing all humanity! It is about the heaviness of the crime. Dropping a nuclear bomb takes several seconds but what about the outcome ?

However, I must say, I'm not trying to confute brother Joseph's arguments here. What I'm trying to do is show that the idea of never-ending punishment in hell is not really irrational. Because if you start your research on whether the life in hell or heaven is limited or not along with the premise that the opposing idea is absolutely illogical and impossible, then it's highly likely that you'll move on pretty biased towards other opinions.

I agree that punishment will be heavy or light depending of the magnitude of the crimes one has committed here in dunya. But I don't  think it will reach an end eventually, in their final abode.  Allah (swt) knows best and may He (swt) guides us to the right way.

There are people in this world who deny their Rabb, the one and only God who created them, gave them rizq, gave them abilities, fed them, protected them. They simply refuse the purpose of creation (51:56) !

"And I did not create the jinn and mankind except to worship Me."

There are people who commit all kinds of horrible, inhumane actions without having any fear of Allah's retribution. They rape, they kill, they destroy the lives of innocent people and ruin them. So, while the punishment  for denying Ar-Rahman and His ayat, His law, His prohibitions, His knowledge and His Eternal mercy is the gravest crime, why is it so hard to consider eternal punishment for it ? Refusing the Eternal mercy and disregarding  it, could very well lead to the deprivation of this mercy in the afterlife eternally.

Allah's mercy encompasses all things for sure, He is Ar-Rahman but He also sets the criterion for this mercy at the end of the ayah:
"Grant us good things in this world and in the life to come. We turn to You.' God said, 'I bring My punishment on whoever I will, but My mercy encompasses all things. 'I shall ordain My mercy for those who are conscious of God and pay the prescribed alms; who believe in Our Revelations." (7:156)

What about those who deserves the la'nah of Allah (swt) ?

"The Day their excuse will not benefit the wrongdoers, and they will have the curse (La'nah), and they will have the worst home." (40:52)

So is there a third option, third home, third life for these people after they get out of the punishment in hell ? If so, why didn't  Allah (swt) give any details or description of it ? And yet He gives extensive examples and details about both Heaven and Hell in the Quran.

About 11:106-108 Brother Joseph says :
Furthermore, when heaven and hell are contrasted together in verses 64:9-10 below, the duration of the inhabitants of 'Janah' is described as 'khalidina' with an elaboration of 'abad' which gives a sense of perpetuity / absoluteness. In contrast, the duration of hell is limited to 'khalidina'  without the elaboration 'abad'. 

The word "abad" could also be used in metaphorical meaning as in 5:24 (innalan nadkhulaha abadan). However if we assume that it's used in "literal meaning" for heaven/hell, the word "abad" is also used in 72:23 for the disbelievers:

"But [I have for you] only notification from Allah, and His messages." And whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger - then indeed, for him is the fire of Hell; they will abide therein forever (nara jahannama khalideena feeha abada)"

I don't think 11:106-108 are enough to prove that the punishment in hell is limited but rewards in heaven are endless. Allah (swt) says in 11:108 "a gift without break" for heaven but He also mentions that disbelievers will not have a moment break from the punishment in hell as in 5:37 and 32:20. That clearly implies the punishment is also"without any break".

"The refuge of those will be Hell, and they will not find from it an escape. (4:121)".

Also i think the phrase "except as thy Lord wills" is a declaration that everything is bound to His will alone and nothing can continue to exist if He doesn't permit them. That doesn't necessarily mean the punishment in hell or rewarding in heaven will certainly be limited. Another example of this phrase is in 7:89:

"We would have invented against Allah a lie if we returned to your religion after Allah had saved us from it. And it is not for us to return to it except that Allah, our Lord, should will. Our Lord has encompassed all things in knowledge. Upon Allah we have relied. Our Lord, decide between us and our people in truth, and You are the best of those who give decision."

About 19:79 here, the verb "yamuddu" could also be used as "extending the punishment in magnitude, severity or abundance". Here is another example from the same root of this verb:

"Whoever desires this present life, We hasten to him therein what We please for whomsoever We desire, then We assign to him the hell; he shall enter it despised, driven away. And whoever desires the hereafter and strives for it as he ought to strive and he is a believer; (as for) these, their striving shall surely be accepted. To all of them - both these and those - We extend (numiddu) the grants of your Lord. And the grant of your Lord is not barred (for anyone)." (17:18-20)

It's the increase in abundance, quantity or magnitude. Not necessarily "increase in duration". Because He swt talks about "extending" his blessings on certain people (who wish for hereafter and strive for it) in the ayat above. Does it imply "time" as in "longevity" ? I think not.

"They will cry out loud in Hell, 'Lord, let us out, and we will do righteous deeds, not what we did before!'- ' Did We not give you a life long enough to take warning if you were going to? The warner came to you, now taste the punishment.' The evildoers will have nobody to help them."" (35:37)

"My people, the life of this world is only a brief enjoyment; it is the Hereafter that is the lasting home." (40:39)

Thank you Ilker and Wanderer for your replies.(Sorry for the late response) Both of you seem to imply that God has no location, or the question of God's location is invalid. I will think about that. But tell me what do you think of the following:

God is not located in a physical space, as no physical space can contain GOD.
God is not a tangible being, there is nothing like him.
God Is not part of his creation.
Rather God is unlimited and located beyond his creation.

I feel this concept is closer to the Quranic verses. What do you think ?

Salam.

Alhamdulillah. I agree and Allah (swt) knows best.

Stay safe inshaAllah.

Salam

Honestly, I have different opinions about the subject. InshaAllah i will write my thoughts in detail. But for now, i would like to learn Brother Joseph's opinion about the question:

- If the punishment of hell is limited and will eventually reach an end after the punishment expires, what will happen then ? What will happen to that person eventually ?

[He is Allah]

Salam all

Personally brother Ahmad, from the ayat you've quoted above, not a single one implies that Allah swt is located in a physical volume.

For 67:16-17, when you read on to 18... (especially 18) Allah swt talks about people who denied His signs/messengers etc. So the part in 16th ayah you mentioned (Allah swt knows best) is some sort of a "reply" to deniers in their own expression. Maybe they addressed Allah (swt) like "The one in the sky" so it is possible that Allah swt replied them and asked a question to them with this adscription they used. It could also be a metaphorical usage of these words to show His sovereignty, exaltedness (not necessarily a physical location).

For 30:11 it doesn't imply a place, location, Allah swt simply says that we are to return to Him. When i say:  "I know she will come back to me soon!" do i imply a location ?

For 2:115 is metaphorical, He sees you, hears you, knows what you do , what you feel, wherever you go...

For 6:3 please read the sentence carefully: It's not "Allah is in the heavens and the earth" it is " He is Allah in the heavens and the earth". They are totally different. He is the One and Only God, Allah, for all beings in the heavens and the earth.

For 57:4 it's just another way of saying "He is well aware of you wherever you are". Just like 50:16:

"And We have already created man and know what his soul whispers to him, and We are closer to him than [his] jugular vein" (50:16)." Such a wonderful statement subhanAllah. Obviously that doesn't mean He is right behind our jugular vein He expresses His closeness, His connection to our souls.

Allah swt knows best and may He guide us if we are wrong in our thoughts and actions.

Take care. Salam.

["And (remember) Ayyūb (Job), when he called his Lord saying, "Here I am, afflicted by pain and You are the most merciful of all the merciful." (21:83)"]

salam

We really feel need to praise someone/something when we love them, when we feel happiness through them or need them desperately. It's perfectly natural. We praise Allah because we love Him, His blessings, His help, His company... We are weak, powerless before Him, asking His aid through our sincere prayers. Alhamdulillah, when I'm so depressed, exhausted, words of praise come out of mouth naturally, like  "Ya Rahman ya Rahim ya Fattah, you see what i'm going through, have mercy on me. Open my chest and guide me ...." It's all about keeping oneself aware of Allah's greatness.

Like Prophet Ayub (as): "And (remember) Ayyūb (Job), when he called his Lord saying, "Here I am, afflicted by pain and You are the most merciful of all the merciful." (21:83)"

"The Most Excellent Names belong to God: use them to call on Him, and keep away from those who abuse them- they will be requited for what they do." (7:180)

Think of a prayer without praising Allah, calling His names. Wouldn't it sound dull or artificial ?

All the prophets mentioned in the Quran prayed like this. By glorifying Him, we acknowledge, remember His greatness once again. We become more aware as to how He could solve our issues, repair our broken hearts with His unlimited power. Praising Him with sincere heart reminds us of who we ask for help!

As Zakariyya, (Zechariah) as he called out to his Lord, "Lord! Leave me not out single, (i.e., without offspring) and You are The Most Charitable of inheritors!" (21:89)

Jesus, son of Mary, said, 'Lord, send down to us a feast from heaven so that we can have a festival- the first and last of us- and a sign from You. Provide for us: You are the best provider.' (5:114)

He said, "My Lord, forgive me and grant me a kingdom such as will not belong to anyone after me. Indeed, You are the Bestower." (38:35)


"And seek help through patience and prayer, and indeed, it is difficult except for the humbly submissive [to Allah ]" (2:45)

Take care:)

Sorry for my English by the way:)

Salam

Alhamdulillah. thanks for your reply miracle114.

salam

I would like to know brother Joseph's point of view on this translation, especially the part for "shaving the head".

Salam all

So in 16:32, from a grammatical perspective, is it (yaqooloona) "angels, saying ..." or "angels will say" ? Is it future tense or present tense referring to the exact time of dying ? I don't know for sure but it's defined as the "imperfect" tense in arabic.

[Say: If it be that your fathers, your sons, your brothers, your mates, or your kindred; the wealth that ye have gained; the commerce in which ye fear a decline: or the dwellings in which ye delight - are dearer to you than Allah, or His Messenger, or the striving in His cause;- then wait until Allah brings about His decision: and Allah guides not the rebellious.]

salamun alaykum all,

When it comes to "love", i remember 9:24 which gives me the message that the love i feel towards "anything worldly" (including families, wives, sons, daughters, friends or any kind of property etc.) has some boundaries that must be upheld no matter what.

Say: If it be that your fathers, your sons, your brothers, your mates, or your kindred; the wealth that ye have gained; the commerce in which ye fear a decline: or the dwellings in which ye delight - are dearer to you than Allah, or His Messenger, or the striving in His cause;- then wait until Allah brings about His decision: and Allah guides not the rebellious.

Perhaps, this ayah was revealed about war (qital) or something specific, but i understand it as a general principle in life. Just like you said Seraphine, it keeps you away from "unnecessary heartache". Keeping in mind that nothing matters more than Allah (swt) and His commandments (His messenger,  His cause...) He is the one who cures your heart when it breaks.

Of course we sometimes fail to live by these principles but where's the harm in trying our best to do so ?

Take care.

Salam

Alhamdulillah. Thanks for your suggestion but may i also suggest that you look up the difference between "profit" and "riba".

["And when Our verses are recited to them as clear evidences, those who do not expect the meeting with Us say, "Bring us a Qur'an other than this or change it." Say, [O Muhammad], "It is not for me to change it on my own accord. I only follow what is revealed to me. Indeed I fear, if I should disobey my Lord, the punishment of a tremendous Day." (10:15)]

salam all

Dear relearning you say:

"Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great" is also becoming obsolete in todays world women also becoming members of working class and even some maintaining their family instead of men.

inheritance for men having two whereas female taking one part in todays society it is already obsolete.

Usury or interest ban. Todays modern world stands upon the financial system of which usery is the backbone of it. And all islamic society came out with is profit share which is just a masking name of interest names in banks."

and also in your last post:

"We must see the patterns and update these seeds to become a solution tree according to the needs of different cultures and times needs."

So you claim that those ayats are "obsolete" for today. They were relevant in the past but they are not suitable for our time. So what is your solution or "update" for Allah's ayat ? You keep talking about "today's world", "today's society" and the Quran not being compatible with them.

But what if it's the other way around ?

"And when Our verses are recited to them as clear evidences, those who do not expect the meeting with Us say, "Bring us a Qur'an other than this or change it." Say, [O Muhammad], "It is not for me to change it on my own accord. I only follow what is revealed to me. Indeed I fear, if I should disobey my Lord, the punishment of a tremendous Day." (10:15)

Salam all

You guys keep on quoting examples of time/place specific ayat or surahs from the Quran but no one has answered my questions about them yet. I'll give it another try inshaAllah.

1. Do you think we have nothing to learn from those surahs today ? 

2. What should we do about them ? Just pass on them because they are irrelevant for our time ?

3. Why are they included in Allah's promise to keep the message protected for all times ? What's the point if they were to be "unnecessary" for next generations ?

Salam Duster.

Alhamdulillah. It's ok. thanks.

No not really....don't get me wrong but i think your point is a little desperate.

"Desperate" is not a nice word to use here, sounds belittling. I don't know what "covenant" are you talking about ? I haven't come across any translation with the word "covenant" for this surah.

Please can i suggest then you look up more translations ...please? ...what is lilafi quraishin then? I don't think anyone can really be sure. ....that's my point.....

Also I told you not to get me wrong.  I wasn't trying to belittle you.  I just found your argument desperate so I said it....no bad intentions intended....

Even brother Joseph mentions this surah in one of his articles ....of course much more eloquently than me ...but point i think is similar....

106.001-4
"For the covenants (of security and safeguard enjoyed) by the Quraish (Arabic: Lilafi Qurayshin) , Their covenants (covering) journeys by winter and summer, Let them adore the Lord of this House, Who provides them with food against hunger, and with security against fear (of danger)"

·              Which covenant, where, what journey and what fear? We cannot ascertain any of these details from the 4 short verses. Indeed, historians attempt to furnish many different accounts of what happened, often seriously contradictory. Clearly, an assessment of these sources indicates that even the historians were non the wiser. In the end, no matter what version of the historian's report one accepts, the conclusion is the same.  It really does not matter what the details were other than the acknowledgment that this remains a time specific Surah (Chapter) for a certain people of a bygone era. And of course, any other inference that is readily obvious from the 4 verses.

http://quransmessage.com/articles/unknown%20towns%20and%20names%20FM3.htm

So my question....what were the lilafi quraishin??

I never said the translation you quoted was wrong. I have never come across the word "covenant" that's all. I don't speak arabic. If it is "covenant", so be it. It doesn't change my question. I was asking you a different question.

You're telling me not to get you wrong again while you also continue to use the word "desperate" Whatever... No problem...

I was asking you what was your perspective on Surah Quraysh or other surahs that are specific for a certain time period, group of people etc ?

What should we do with those surahs ? How should we understand them ? I'm asking these questions because i would like to get your point of view.

Do we have nothing to extract / learn from them ?

( I really don't know how i can ask these questions differently ? )

By the way, nice point brother Wakas.