Messages

1

General Discussions / Re: About wearing shoes while performing Salat

« on: June 29, 2013, 06:11:51 PM »

Peace!

Thanks Duster for sharing an interesting discussion!  I had posted I do not want to get involved in any argument on this.  However, after reading your post and going through the link I thought a point is needed to be clarified. So let me make a final posting.

According to me, the issue is NOT whether an ant can “speak”,  but the issue is whether ants have the capacity to identify, recognize, perceive things like a human being, whether it had the ability to recognize Solomon, who was most probably at the least a mile away,  to have sufficient time for all ants to find "safe place" in their ‘dwellings’ and most importantly, the possibility of any ant having advance knowledge of who was Solomon, his character, his mission, etc.   Scientific references to show an ant can "speak" cannot help here.

Here is wiki notes about ant’s eye sight.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ant#cite_note-39

Compared to vertebrates, most ants have poor-to-mediocre eyesight and a few subterranean species are completely blind. Some ants such as Australia's bulldog ant, however, have excellent vision and are capable of discriminating the distance and size of objects moving nearly a metre away*

*Eriksson, E. Sture (1985). "Attack behaviour and distance perception in the Australian bulldog ant Myrmecia nigriceps". J. Exp. Biol. 119: 115–131.

Here is some interesting notes about an ant's ability to "THINK" and "ANALYSE" facts.  I am sure many others can post many more intersting facts.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/10/061018094651.htm

Professor Tom Collett from the University of Sussex's Centre for Neuroscience, explained:  "To show that ants use visual memory to navigate we trained ants to find food 10cm from a cylinder. We then doubled the size of the cylinder and the ants searched for the food at 20cm away where the retinal size of the landmark was the same. "To analyse the ants' powers of recall an ambiguous a situation was set up. Ants were trained to search for food between two cylinders of different sizes and then tested with the training cylinders replaced by two cylinders of the same size. Would ants know which cylinder is which? They were only able to search in the predicted place when a patterned background was introduced as a retrieval cue

I read at one place the method used by Ants to gather food. 

By following pheromone trails created by other ants from the colony, foraging ants can gather and store food efficiently. A scout ant first leaves the nest in search of food, and wanders somewhat randomly until it discovers something edible. It will then consume some of the food and return to the nest in a straight, direct line. It seems these scout ants can observe and recall visual cues that enable them to navigate quickly back to the nest. Along the return route, the scout ant leaves a trail of pheromones, special scents that will guide her nestmates to the food. The foraging ants then follow her path, each one adding more scent to the trail to reinforce it for others. The workers will continue walking back and forth along the line until the food source is depleted

If an ant, in the story of Solomon, could make an announcement to all ants in a valley to take shelter in their homes without being crushed by solomon and his army, and we should assume here Solomon and all ants in the valley instantaneously head this announcement, why ants have to follow the above complicated process for a simple thing of gathering food?

Anyhow, in verse 2:26 Allah states the possibility of using simile even that of a mosquito to convey certain facts.   Therefore illustrations using ant to convey certain facts is a clear possibility.  The important question is, why should we insist that there is no question of Allah using an allegory using an ant?  What is the need to take an extreme position?   Why we can not approach the issue with a flexible mind?

Regards, Islamist

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General Discussions / Re: About wearing shoes while performing Salat

« on: June 27, 2013, 04:26:08 PM »

Thanks for sharing. Have gone through Allama Ghamidi's critiquing on GA Perwaiz's translation which is available on this Forum? Pl go through & find out. Thanks

Why should I listen to someone criticizing someone when I do not agree on taking extreme views?   I prefer a middle path -unlike you- and I want to evaluate things, case by case, with an open mind to tolerate both views.  And to make a point clear, I may have an opinion something is allegory based on my logic and understanding, but I do not want to impose my view on others and to criticise others for taking a different view.   For example, I sincerely think there is possibility of allegory in the description of Solomon’s communication with an Ant.   It is my personal view only, and it is not Parwez who explained it as an allegory for the first time, however, as I said, I respect the view of others who want to understand it in a literal sense though the reasoning for such an explanation I came across so far not really convincing for me.  If anyone can give me a satisfactory logical reasoning to prove that an ant can “think” like a human being and deliver ‘thoughts’ through “speech”  similar like human being, and that it had known Solomon earlier so as to “recognize” and “identify” him, and it had the “knowledge” of Solomon’s mission, I can agree on a literal understanding.  Just imagine, if there was such thing like real ants ‘communicating’ with Solomon he would have spent a difficult time entire his life “to save” all ants on his way.  Even while typing this message I can notice an ant on the wall and it is really scary for me to think that it knows me and understand what type of person I am, like my neighbors in the other flat!!  We should have a realistic approach. The Quran is full of wisdom.   I do not like an argument on this topic. That’s it and this is my final post here. 

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General Discussions / Re: About wearing shoes while performing Salat

« on: June 26, 2013, 06:27:35 PM »

Thanks Bro JAi for sharing. Bro Optimist Please don't quote strange translations on this Forum. Please watch Allama Ghamidi's review on GAPerwaiz's translation particularly of Surah Mamal. Thanks

Peace!

Dear Sardar,

Like most of the readers here, I feel  that the verbal direct literal meaning is sufficient here, however, I do not feel that the explanation from Parwez is 'strange' as you seem to have projected.   What I felt strange is your suggestion not to quote  such "strange" explanations.  For me the explanation given is  just "interesting" only, and I politely do not want to understand the issue in an allegorical way.  According to me, the message was simple and very plain.   

Having said so,  I want to state, actually, the allegorical way of explaining facts is no strange to Quran.  We all know,  Allah conveys certain facts - through the medium of Dream - using certain symbols, signs, metaphor and allegory.   For example, the king who saw the dream, in the story of Yousuf,  “seven lean cows devouring seven fat cows” had a divine hidden meaning of; “Ye shall sow seven years as usual, but that which ye reap, leave it in the ear, all save a little which ye eat. Then after that will come seven hard years which will devour all that ye have prepared for them, save a little of that which ye have stored. (12:47-48)

Similarly, "I see myself (in a dream) carrying bread on my head, and birds are eating"(12:36) had the meaning of “getting crucified so that the birds will eat from his head” (12:41).

Therefore,  there is always a "possibility" that  Allah may convey certain facts through allegories.   I agree the issue here is “Dream”, but, according to me, the subject matter is the same, i.e., Allah “communicates” certain facts through the medium of dream using "allegories".   I will say that, both extreme views are not good.  We should respect both literal and allegorical views considering the element of “possibility” for both views.  I cannot agree with those who insist to interpret something as allegorical and also those who insist to interpret as literal.   However, we should use our logic and reason to understand if something could be an allegory, with an attitude to tolerate both views.   Especially things like Solomon listening to an ant’s speech and an ant "recognizing" and "identifying" Solomon, understanding facts and behaving like a human being, I prefer to keep open the “possibility” of Allah informing us certain facts based on allegory,  especially in the light of the verses mentioned  above,  and at the same time open to positively recognize the views of others who want  to understand it in a  literal sense.

Regards, Islamist

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General Discussions / Re: To defend the Hadith, attack the Qur'an !

« on: April 02, 2013, 09:06:19 PM »

I believe we need to see how traditional Muslims understood the hadith of the ajwa dates. They don't believe that the power of protection is in the dates themselves, but rather it's a means taken, while the ultimate power is in Allah.

It's kind of like Allah saying in the Qur'an "Make dua to Me and I shall respond". Could we then take this verse and challenge people to ask Allah for a Ferrari and expect it to then turn up miraculously in our garage? No, I don't think so.

I think we need to sometimes look at the spirit of things in their proper context and not at the letter of things in isolation of their context.

ya if we look at the spirit of things may be ajwa dates may cure the diseases of many. I used to give vitamin tablets to my grandmother whenever she complains about one thing or other and she used to feel completely cured most of the times!

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General Discussions / Re: Preservation of the Quran

« on: April 02, 2013, 08:43:41 PM »

Salaam!
Good analysis Joseph Islam!
Regards,
Islamist

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General Discussions / Re: Cause thee to forget??

« on: April 02, 2013, 03:36:07 PM »

The answer is YES, and I clearly gave you the context why. Please reread my response #10.  Sometimes Allah (swt) allows cause and effect and sometimes he can intervene to stop it. I gave you clear verses. That is why I kept asking you about these laws you talk about as I think understanding of these laws don't allow to accept the clear verses of the Qur'an.

Assalamu alaikum.

Thank you for the response.   You have mentioned "Yes" without realizing the seriousness.   I know you are not realizing the implication of "Yes" here and therefore I take your comment as an innocent comment.  To suggest a view (unknowingly) that it is possible for prophet to independently benefit something for himself without the role of God and to believe that there is possibility for Allah to give such an authority to the prophet (even if it is one time) will make the Quranic teaching upside down.  I cannot even say here let us agree to disagree.

As a concluding remark,  focusing the topic under discussion, I kindly advise you not to go for direct Arabic meaning blindly wherever Allah mentions His Will without cross checking different verses (Allah instructs us always to ponder on the verses).  With the risk of repetition, let me tell you an example.  In verse 6:107 it states,  “If your God had so willed, they would not have worshipped other than Him”.   If we go for a superficial reading, based on direct word meanings we might conclude that the verse is stating that it is because of Allah's wish and choice that they are worshiping other Gods (which was the allegation of mushrikeen Allah strongly condemned and objected in 16:35 & 6:148).  This verse simply means that if it was the will of Allah he would have guided everyone to the right path, but Allah gave freedom of choice to man either to accept his message or to reject it.  That is why in the very same chapter, countering the false claim mushrikeen that it is because of Allah they worship other gods in 6:148, in the very next verse, Allah says; “Say: With Allah is the perfect proof and argument, had He so willed, He would indeed have guided you all.”  (6:149)

Take care awlays.

Assalamu alaikum

Islamist

7

General Discussions / Re: Cause thee to forget??

« on: April 02, 2013, 12:31:10 AM »

Salaam Islamist

You want me to stay on the topic while it is you who is deliberately not responding to a simple question that you have been asked?

Anyone reading this thread will clearly see that it is you that has not responded to my question and are you are deliberately evading and skirting it. This is a tactic I am not going to accept and I find it very rude that you are answering a question with a question.

Salaam Saba,

With all respect towards you, without being rude, let me first tell you that you are not going to respond to my last post due to reason you and me (at the least) aware.  And you want now to divert the discussion to another topic.  It is ok.  Let us see.

Please read the thread again and see that I asked the question first. See reply #8

Now I ask once again for the third time........ please do not skirt the issue and answer my question first -

Tell me where the Qur'an speaks about the law of "Mashiyat (will power)"? Actually, please can you tell me where the word 'mashiyat' is used in the Quran and defined.

Mashiyat  means God’s will.  The root word is "Shaa—a" and "Ya—shaa—u" meaning to intend or to will.   It is the root words of Mashiyat which are used in the Quran at number of places.  Let me explain to you in brief the point I wanted to convey when I used "Law of Mashiyat".  This is a vast subject and I know you purposefully wanted to divert the topic.

Well, generally, When we refer to God’s will (Mashiyat) we think that Allah acts without any law or rule.  And many people think that Allah acts like a dictator.  He punishes whomever He wishes, He guides whomever He wishes,  He makes people rich and poor whimsically, etc. Such concepts are contrary to the teachings of the Quran.  God’s Will does not mean it is exercised without any law or rule. 

Allah’s Will in the World of Nature:-

We observe Allah’s will (مشيئة) in the physical universe around us.   Everything in the universe follows a certain law or rule.  It means God has subjected everything to certain laws.  This is what it says in 33:39 as وَكَانَ أَمْرُ اللَّهِ قَدَرًا مَقْدُورًا   “God's will is always destiny absolute”.  Here God’s mashiyat or Will would mean the laws that are being followed in the entire universe.  This phase of God’s Will can be understood by us through knowledge and experience which is the basis of science. That is why these laws are called (بقدر معلوم) in (15:21) and (15:24) i.e., laws which can be discovered.  Adam is said to have been given ‘the knowledge of names’. This is nothing but the knowledge of the universe.

Allah’s Will and Human Beings:-

Let me state only some brief points.

Wherever in the Quran has been said “ma yashaa’ i.e. ‘As God wills’, it will have to be seen with reference to the context as to which phase of His Will is being talked about. To take the same meaning everywhere would create confusion due to which one may wrongly believe that the Quran is contradictory!  For instance, Quran says at one place, يَهْدِي مَنْ يَشَاءُ إِلَىٰ صِرَاطٍ مُسْتَقِيمٍ yahdi man yashahu ilaa silathin mustaqueen (2:142).  It clearly means that God gives guidance to whosoever so wishes.  But if it is taken to mean whoever God wishes (as is generally done) then it would mean that guidance from God is received by whoever He wants.  In 5:16 Allah states, ‘Allah guideth all who seek His good pleasure to ways of peace and safety, and leadeth them out of darkness, by His will, unto the light,- guideth them to a path that is straight’.  It means Allah grants guidance through this Qur’an to anybody who wants to follows His laws: the thing is very clear: that the guidance will come from God no doubt, but the initiative will have to be man’s,  i.e, he must want it. This is also what it says in 6:36, “Those who listen (in truth), be sure, will accept”.  If man follows God’s laws then he will get guidance to the right path but if he rejects them or goes against them then he will definitely meet destruction.  falamma zaaghu azaaghallahu qulubahum: 61:5 when they adopted the crooked ways (wrong ways) then their hearts were also turned.   In other words, Allah has given man the power to obey or disobey the laws that have been created for his life, verse 18:29 states, “And say, 'It is the truth from your Lord; wherefore let him who will, believe, and let him, who will, disbelieve”.

I will list down some of the verses from Quran and you may note how Allah’s will could be termed as as His Laws.

وَلَوْ شَاءَ اللَّهُ لَجَعَلَكُمْ أُمَّةً وَاحِدَةً
And if God had enforced His will, He would surely have made you all one people (16:93). The point is emphasized in this verse is that it is not Allah's Will to make all one Ummat.  This is repeated at other places also.  It is an unchangeable decision (Law) of Allah.

وَقَالُوا لَوْلَا نُزِّلَ عَلَيْهِ آيَةٌ مِنْ رَبِّهِ قُلْ إِنَّ اللَّهَ قَادِرٌ عَلَىٰ أَنْ يُنَزِّلَ آيَةً وَلَٰكِنَّ أَكْثَرَهُمْ لَا يَعْلَمُونَ 

And they say, 'Why has not a Sign been sent down to him from his Lord?' Say, 'Surely God has the power to send down a Sign, but most of them do not know(6:37). The verse confirms the point that Allah has the power to send down sign, but it is not his Plan (Law) to send Signs.  In other words, no matter what happens there shall be no issue of sending Signs. The comment "most of them do not know" may be noted.

ْ كَانَ كَبُرَ عَلَيْكَ إِعْرَاضُهُمْ فَإِنِ اسْتَطَعْتَ أَنْ تَبْتَغِيَ نَفَقًا فِي الْأَرْضِ أَوْ سُلَّمًا فِي السَّمَاءِ فَتَأْتِيَهُمْ بِآيَةٍ وَلَوْ شَاءَ اللَّهُ لَجَمَعَهُمْ عَلَى الْهُدَىٰ فَلَا تَكُونَنَّ مِنَ الْجَاهِلِينَ

“And if their turning away is hard on thee, then, if thou art able to seek a passage into the earth or a ladder unto heaven and bring them a Sign, thou canst do so. And had God enforced His will, He could surely have brought them all together to the guidance. So be thou not of those who lack knowledge” (6:35).    Here also notice the permanency of Allah’s Will.   It is not Allah's will to bring them all the people to the guidance by force.

We normally wonder why Allah does not interfere where there is bloodshed in the world and innocent people are killed (which was in fact what the Angels feared).  (As a reply to this) it is mentioned in chapter 2 that, Allah, through His Messengers, sent guidance to mankind advising them against bloodshed. People would resume mutual killings and the Messengers were dead. “If Allah had willed it so, they would not have killed…….. (2:253). Against permanacy of Allah's Will is mentioned.

وَلَوْ أَنَّنَا نَزَّلْنَا إِلَيْهِمُ الْمَلَائِكَةَ وَكَلَّمَهُمُ الْمَوْتَىٰ وَحَشَرْنَا عَلَيْهِمْ كُلَّ شَيْءٍ قُبُلًا مَا كَانُوا لِيُؤْمِنُوا إِلَّا أَنْ يَشَاءَ اللَّهُ وَلَٰكِنَّ أَكْثَرَهُمْ يَجْهَلُونَ

And even if We send down unto them angels, and the dead speak to them, and We gather to them all things face to face, they would not believe, unless God enforced His Will.  But most of them are ignorant(6:111). Here it does not mean that some people with the character mentioned in the verse may believe if Allah Will so.  Here exception does not mean Allah may enforce His will sometimes and they may believe (the exception is not going to happen).  Here the issue of their belief is linked to Allah's will is to highlight that such people is not going to believe in any case.   

وَلَوْ شَاءَ اللَّهُ مَا أَشْرَكُوا

Yet if God had so willed, they would not have ascribed divinity to aught beside Him (6:107). Here it does not mean that it was due to Allah’s whimsical decision and will that they had set up gods with Him.  Actually, it was the claim of the idolaters that it was the will of Allah that they worship other gods with Allah.  “And the idolaters say, 'If God had so willed, we should not have worshiped anything beside Him, neither we nor our fathers, nor should we have forbidden anything without command from Him.' So did those who opposed the truth before them. Are the Messengers responsible for anything except the plain delivery of the Message?”(16:35).   The Quran does not contradict each other.  Think.

Regards

Islamist

8

General Discussions / Re: Cause thee to forget??

« on: April 01, 2013, 03:17:24 PM »

This is how I understand this verse

Hope, 

This is not the verse states

Regards

Islamist

9

General Discussions / Re: Cause thee to forget??

« on: April 01, 2013, 02:31:03 PM »

Many times Allah has intervened and restrained something from happening. If you do not believe me, please read verses like ....

Salaam Saba, 

You may please focus on the topic.  I was not discussing whether Allah intervenes or restrains something from happening.    My question to you was very simple.  In verse 10:49 Allah says X will not happen unless Y happens.    I asked you whether Y has ever happened or supposed to happen anytime.  In other words, prophet is saying he has no power independently to benefit something on his own accord for himself except what Allah wills.  My question is whether prophet had independently benefited anything in his life for himself? (In other words, whether the exception is supposed to happen);  Yes or No?

I shall make comments for your other questions (Insha Allah) in my next post after I receive your comments for this since I repeatedly notice you conveniently ignoring this question which is directly linked to the topic under discussion.

Regards,

Islamist

10

General Discussions / Re: Cause thee to forget??

« on: April 01, 2013, 12:25:46 AM »

Salaam

If I say, X will not happen unless Y happens, what does that concept mean in any language?. What is the purpose of an exception in any language???  Again, the Arabic is clear, the Arabic is simple and straightforward, the meaning is clear, the meaning is simple and straightforward - unless of course one does not want to accept it.

Wassalam,

Kindly  tell me what is the message of the 'simple and straightforward verse',  "I have no power over any harm or profit to myself except as Allah willeth"(10:49).   Does it imply that there is possibility that sometimes the prophet might have had the power to harm and to profit himself?   Here Allah says X will not happen unless Y happens.    Is there any possibility of Y happening here?  YES or NO

Another verse; 007:188  “Say: "I have no power over any good or harm to myself except as God wills. If I had knowledge of the unseen, I should have multiplied all good, and no evil should have touched me: I am but a warner, and a bringer of glad tidings to those who have faith."”

Look forward to your comment

Kind regards

Islamist

11

General Discussions / Re: Cause thee to forget??

« on: March 31, 2013, 02:54:15 PM »

"I have no power over any harm or profit to myself except what Allah may will" (10:49)

Here, in fact,  it does not mean there is possibility for Allah to give the prophet (some times) power over any harm or to profit himself.   The prophet was never given any such power at anytime.  The issue of prophet gaining any power or harm is linked to GOD in order to confirm the point that there is no question of prophet gaining any knowledge or power from any sources and the issue shall be dealt with God's law of Mashiyat (will power).    I believe the verse under discussion should be taken in the same meaning.  In other words, there is no question of prophet forgetting anything due to any reason.

12

General Discussions / Re: 9:61

« on: March 30, 2013, 12:54:23 PM »

Islamist, The Quraish had wished to turn the prophet away from his mission by applying temptations as well as force and had "WE" not made you firm thabbatnāka, strengthened you,you would have inclined to them a little.  Making a small concession to compromise even to fulfill a divine mission is not acceptable for God - 5:2 “do not cooperate in sin and transgression”. Two wrongs do not add up to right. His punishment would be doubled: first for his own nafs for not taking responsibility, second for the improper guidance of mankind.  God is not taking chances; protects His rasuls.  After all, they are humans.  Potentiality is in the DNA.

Let us agree to disagree and move on to another issue.

Salaam Hope,

I agree with you.  Let us agree to disagree.  Thank you for your comments.

Just as a final note, we focused on English translation "strengthened" for thabbatnāka which was primarily because we relied on certain translation.  I notice majority of scholars translated it as making the prophet to stand firm which is consistent with the use of the word in the Quran.  The word "strengthen" gives an impression the prophet was incapable by himself and therefore needed outside interference.  Here is translation by Pikthall & Mohammed Asad.

"And if We had not made thee wholly firm thou mightest almost have inclined unto them a little" (Pikthall)

"And had We not made thee firm [in faith], thou might have inclined to them a little" (M. Asad)

Let us check a few verse from Quran where this word has come.

14:24 أَصْلُهَا ثَابِتٌ  (asluha thabitun)  =  tree, firmly rooted

8:11  وَيُثَبِّتَ بِهِ الْأَقْدَامَ (wayuthabbita bihi alaqdama) = to make firm your steps

14:27 يُثَبِّتُ اللَّهُ الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا بِالْقَوْلِ الثَّابِتِ فِي الْحَيَاةِ الدُّنْيَا وَفِي الْآخِرَةِ  (Yuthabbitu Allahu allatheena amanoo bialqawli alththabiti fee alhayati alddunya wafee alakhirati) = Thus,] God grants firmness unto those who have attained to faith through the word that is unshakably true in the life of this world as well as in the life to come. (Isn't this firmness that was given to the prophet?)

Thank you all for sharing your views.  If anyone felt anything bad about me, please forgive me.

Assalamu alaikum

Islamist

13

General Discussions / Re: 9:61

« on: March 30, 2013, 03:29:05 AM »

"And had We not given you (Muhammad) strength, you would nearly have inclined to them a little. In that case We would have made you taste double portion (of punishment) in this life, and double (punishment) after death: and moreover you would have found none to help you against Us!"  17:074-75

According to me, there is one point we all should note in the above verse.   Mentioning about 'double punishment' for the prophet makes it clear that it was prophet's own individual decision/ action as a result of his complete faith in Allah and Eman (without interference from outside) that made the prophet not to get inclined (so warning makes sense here).  If there was outside interference (which made the prophet not to incline), there is absolutely no reason why the prophet should be warned (since outside Allah's interference means there was no question of prophet getting inclined to them in anycase).

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General Discussions / Re: 9:61

« on: March 30, 2013, 02:02:56 AM »

Salaam Saba,

With all respect, in order not to deviate from the issue under discussion, if you have a case it is the nature of a true believer to incline, we shall continue our discussion and I shall provide you evidences.  The whole discussion is centric around "Believers".  This is just to ensure that we are focused on the point.  Kindly let me know if you have such a case. 

Also one more thing.  You are just focusing and strongly countering my comment, 'it was NOT the nature of the prophet to incline'.  Do you have a case that it was the nature of the prophet to incline (considering also prophet was a firm believer and prophet had complete trust in Allah).  Kindly state explicitly this point so that I can understand clearly your stand.

Kind regards,

Islamist

15

General Discussions / Re: 9:61

« on: March 29, 2013, 03:03:55 PM »

@Truth Seeker

I would like to make one comment also.  Please note the following verse;

And We strengthened their hearts with patience, when they stood up and said: Our Lord is the Lord of the heavens and the earth; we will by no means call upon any god besides Him, for then indeed we should have said an extravagant thing. (18:14)

Let me ask.  Is there any need to interpret that when the young men of the cave stood up and said so and so Allah externally interfered and strengthened their hearts? The strengthening of their heart was the natural consequences of their declaration of complete faith in Allah and firm conviction.  But Allah attributed it to Himself because it was the result of Law of returns.   Similarly another verse "When they turned away, Allah turned their hearts away" 9:127.  This does not mean Allah externally interfered and turned away their hearts.  I Hope the point I am making is clear to you and I do hope at least you will consider the possibility of this understanding when Allah states about strengthening the prophet.