Messages

76

General Discussions / Re: What is Yusala in 13:21?

« on: July 02, 2018, 06:27:55 AM »

Dear Student,

As-salaam alaikum,

See below my understanding of the verse in question. Hopefully Br. Joseph will share his understanding when available.

“And those who join (yaswiluna) that which Allah has ordered to be joined (yuswala) and fear their Lord and are afraid of the evil of [their] account.” (Qur’an, Ar-Ra’d 13:21)

‘Yuswala/yaswiluna’ from verb ‘waswala’ or root ‘Waw-Saad-Lam’ would simply mean join/enjoin/take hold onto, reach/ reach for, deliver/convey. See a reference below:

 ‘Waw-Saad-Lam’ - attain, reach, connect, apply, make close, to come/deliver/convey, to continue, union (of companions/friends/lovers)’ [1]

If we read verse 13:21 as continuation of the description of the character of those who ‘ascertain the truth of the revelation,' (13:19), we see such a people as ‘those endowed with understanding, who fulfill the promise to God, and do not violate the covenant, who fear their Lord, dread the dire Reckoning, patiently seek the countenance of their Lord, pray regularly, spend from the provision from their God, secretly and openly, and repel evil with good’(13:19-22).

Taking cue of the contrast made between them and those of 13:25 and 2:27, we see the other group as those who do ‘violate their promise to God after a prior covenant, and sever that which has been commanded to be joined/taken hold of, and spread corruption.’

In my humble view, I see that which is commanded to be joined/taken hold of, as enjoined by the first group (13:21) and shunned by the second group (13:25/2:27) as having to do with the covenant (meethaqun) that was formerly promised to be joined/taken hold of. Consequently, I would briefly understand such a covenant/joint promise as comprised of such commandments as ‘... fear their Lord, dread the dire Reckoning, patiently seek the countenance of their Lord, pray regularly, spend from the provision from their God, secretly and openly, and repel evil with good.’ (Q)

A similar illustration of such a covenant can be seen with the Children of Israel who violated it (2:63-64).

Thus, in my opinion, I would be disinclined to interpret such a ‘yuswala/ yaswiluna’ as restrictively linked to ‘joining family ties/kinship’ which would consequently seem to be an unwarranted narrowing of the wide import of such a term as appears in those verses. Otherwise, the ‘kinship ties’ can still be a part of the wider scope of ‘all those social and civil relations that are conducive to the correct and right conduct of collective human life.' [2] This would form the social setup of those who enjoin that which has to be enjoined (Q).

Hopefully that slightly helps.

Regards,
Athman.


REFERENCES:

[1].  LANE. E.W, Edward Lanes Lexicon, Williams and Norgate 1863; Librairie du Liban Beirut-Lebanon 1968, Volume 8, Page 3054
[2]. Towards Understanding the Quran, Surah Ar-Ra’d 13:19-26.
http://www.islamicstudies.info/tafheem.php?sura=13&verse=19&to=26

77

Q&As with Joseph Islam - Information Only / Re: Asking for a Fee to Teach Religion

« on: June 04, 2018, 10:10:54 PM »

Dear Br. Duster,

Respectfully, if I am not wrong, I think you might have missed the purport of my presenting that verse. All I have tried to do is elaborate on what seems to be shared by Br. Joseph. If you follow my comment above, you will find that I strongly am in support of the view that ‘private consultation’ was advised to be preceded by a charity in the spirit of a kind offering as an appreciation to whatever advice consulted, in the main, as a better approach, and where affordable.

The verse is intended to absolve the Prophet (pbuh) of any seeming charge whatsoever of a claim to ask for any typical fee. This is with a view to avoid confusing the preaching of the Quran’s message that is linked to 36:21 (42:23) with individual consultation on various matters at a personal level (58:21/ 4:114).

Kindly follow through my whole comment carefully please.


Regards,
Athman.

78

Q&As with Joseph Islam - Information Only / Re: Asking for a Fee to Teach Religion

« on: June 04, 2018, 07:23:23 PM »

Dear Ahmad,

As salaam alaikum,

I hope you won't mind if I share my understanding on this subject knowing that it is meant for Br. Joseph.

Regarding your question, what I understand from Br. Joseph’s sentiments, in such a scenario, as Br. Joseph has put it above, the charities are meant for the Prophet “in the same spirit as we note in verse 58:12 where private consultations with the prophet (that went beyond general preaching) were twinned with a genuine/kind gesture of some sort of charity, if possible. This was considered the better approach.”

Given some other contexts, as like that of 9:103, it can be argued that those charities might not only have been those twinned with some ‘kind gestures’ of some sort of appreciation for the Prophet’s (pbuh) private advice/consultation but possibly also meant to be distributed to the deserved categories (9:60).

From my humble perspective, I see 58:8 depicting the nature of ill private conversations (najwa) as those conspired for sin, aggression and defiance against the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). Such consultative conspiracies are referred to as Satan’s handiwork in 58:10 and could be contagious amongst the believers (4:113) as seen in 58:14, 19. Believers are thus advised to refrain from such secret conversations (idha tanajaitum) and rather do it in virtue and piety (58:9). Verse 4:114 mentions about the lack of goodness (khaira) in many of private conversations (najwahum) except those ones in which is enjoyed charity (bi swadaqat), kindness, or those for reconciliation. Thus, ‘goodness’ (khair) - 2:271 is achieved as well as purity (tuthwahiruhum) and sanctity (tuzakihim) through the paying of charity (swadaqah) - 9:103.

Charity before the private consultation with the Prophet (pbuh), done seeking God’s approval (i.e in the spirit of ‘fi sabilillah’ - 9:60), could thus purify believers, possibly also from Satan’s whispers avoiding sin, aggression and defiance (58:9). On the other hand, 58:13 reprieves those who are not able to offer charity before such private consultations (najwakum) to just establish Swalat, give Zakat, and Obey Allah & the Prophet, given that God has pardoned them.

As regards not asking of a pay/fee for the Prophetic/religious preaching, this was in fact instructed of the Prophet (pbuh) by God as even of a proclamation (42:23).

“It is that of which Allah gives good tidings to His servants who believe and do righteous deeds. Say, [O Muhammad], "I do not ask you for this message any payment [but] only good will through kinship." And whoever commits a good deed - We will increase for him good therein. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Appreciative.” (Qur’an, Ash-Shura 42:23)

Hopefully that somehow helps in sha Allah.


Regards,
Athman.

79

General Discussions / Re: Miqat in 7:142

« on: June 03, 2018, 11:25:39 AM »

Dear Br. Joseph,

As salaam alaikum,

With reference to the topic of the article [1] you shared, kindly see my humble view below.
 
From my perspective, the place where Prophet Musa (pbuh) perceived a fire, by the Mount side - ‘janibi thwuri’ (28:29) was a Holy valley referred to as ‘Thuwa’ (20:12). See also (79:16). It was from this place that Prophet Musa (pbuh) heard God’s voice from the RHS direction at the blessed spot (28:30). Some of the signs were initiated here. As to whether this is the same venue where the covenant in (20:80), the ‘miqat’ in (7:143) for the Law and another one in 7:155 (2:55) took place is something that could be of a separate discussion. This is with notice that the 1st one is described as ‘RHS’ of the mount - ‘janibi thwuri al-aymana’ (20:80), while the 2nd one as ‘western’ side - 'bijanibi al gharbiyya' (28:44) or ‘Mount’ side (janibi al-thwur) -28:46.

Thus the Qur’an identifies the position where Prophet Musa (pbuh) was summoned as being at the Holy valley of Thuwa (20:12). On the other hand, the Qur’an interchanges ‘thwur’ with ‘jabal’ in the verses captured below to implicate the synonymy of the two terms, especially as understood classically, as for instance as ‘a mountain, or any mountain that produces trees’ [2].

“And when We raised the mountain (al-jabala) above them (fauqahum) as if it was a dark cloud and they were certain that it would fall upon them, [and Allah said], ‘Take what We have given you with determination and remember what is in it that you might fear Allah.’ ” (Qur’an, Al-A’raf 7:171)

“And when We took your covenant, [O Children of Israel, to abide by the Torah] and We raised over you (fauqakumu) the mount (al-thwura), [saying], ‘Take what We have given you with determination and remember what is in it that you might fear Allah.’ ” (Qur’an, Al-Baqarah 2:63)

See also 2:93 and 4:154

Apart from the one connection of ‘thwur’ and ‘siniin’ in 95:2, another one occurs in 23:20 as captured below. A tree sprouting from Mount Sinai could possibly be linked to that olive (zaitun) one mentioned just before it in 95:2 or that one in 28:30 (mubarakat mina shajara). It could also possibly be that referred to in 24:35 (shajarati mubarakati zaituna).

“And [We brought forth] a tree issuing from Mount Sinai (thwuri saina-a) which produces oil and food for those who eat.” (Qur’an, Al-Mu’minun 23:20)

Regards,
Athman.


REFERENCES:

[1]. MOUNT SINAI - BEHIND THE TRANSLATIONS
http://quransmessage.com/articles/tur%20FM3.htm

[2]. LANE. E.W, Edward Lanes Lexicon, Williams and Norgate 1863; Librairie du Liban Beirut-Lebanon 1968, Volume 5, Page 1890

80

General Discussions / Re: Miqat in 7:142

« on: June 02, 2018, 09:30:10 PM »

In 'the 1st part of 7:143,' I meant 7:142.

Also, "and the ‘days’ (nahar) hence not ‘ayyam' " was meant to be "not the ‘days’ (nahar) hence also not ‘ayyam'."


Regards,
Athman.

81

General Discussions / Re: Miqat in 7:142

« on: June 02, 2018, 08:51:35 PM »

Dear All,

Correction on my comment above

82

General Discussions / Re: Miqat in 7:142

« on: June 02, 2018, 08:02:15 PM »

Dear Br. Joseph,

Thanks for your responses to the inquiries made above, elaborating on your perspective.

Respectfully, I can follow what you have shared as regards verse 7:142 indicating the ‘miqat’ to be different from that one in 7:143. However, I don’t find it an outright exclusive approach as I can see another possible interpretation. This is with a cue to stay cautious on matters not clear (18:22). Kindly see below how I understand the same 40-night sojourn as during which the law and the instructions were received. Any corrections are welcome insha Allah.

In my humble opinion, from a different angle, the 1st part of 7:143 points to the '30+10' split of the 40 nights though not detailing on it. It can be inferred from the verse that God ‘promised’ (wawa’adna) Prophet Musa (pbuh) a 30-night sojourn after which 10 extra ones were spent adding up to what God had actually ‘appointed’ (miqatu rabbihi). I see the 2nd part of it now elaborating on the preliminaries to the onset of a journey by Prophet Musa (pbuh) to that same ‘miqat.’ That is, handing in the role of leadership to his brother Prophet Haron (pbuh). Verse 7:143 captures the arrival of Prophet Musa (pbuh) at that ‘miqat’ and the rest is what happened till his return in 7:150/ 2:86. This is also resonated by the seeming immediacy of the ‘worshipping of the calf’ by the Israelites after him as in 2:51. Thus, this ‘miqat’ took place in the 40 nights.

“And [recall] when We made an appointment with Moses for forty nights. Then you took [for worship] the calf after him, while you were wrongdoers.” (Qur’an, Al-Baqarah 2:51)

In 7:154, he calms down and arranges (2:54) for another ‘miqat’ (7:155) where the incident in 2:55 happens.


I also am of the opinion that what were appointed were the 40 ‘nights’ (laylatan) and the ‘days’ (nahar) hence not ‘ayyam.’ How the 40 nights were each actually spent/occupied is not vivid. My use of 40-days (ayyam) as can be noted in my response above was just to capture what I cited as a proposition that is frequently made and what I partly agree with.

As can also be noted in the case of the Biblical account given above, though the Bible advance a 40-day and 40-nights sojourn, I only summarized an understanding that is mutual to both the Qur’an and Bible, retaining a 40-night rendition from the Qur’an.

“Relating these citations to the Qur’anic account of verses 7:144-147 among other chapters, it can be followed that both references recognize the epic incident during which Prophet Musa (pbuh) was given the Ten Commandments as what constitutes the 40-nights period.”


As regards Prophet Musa’s (pbuh) ‘haste’ in 20:83, I see this addressed as due to the fact that the People were closely following on him (his promises and lead) - 20:84. Having promised his People 30-nights sojourn at the ‘miqat,’ he rushed to God’s call for the appointment to please Him, wary of his closely following /monitoring People (Israelites). Being at the ‘miqat’ (20:84), he is told of the transgressions by his People (20:85) after he left.  This could possibly be due to a seeming delay on their part during the extra 10 nights Prophet Musa’s (pbuh) spent at his ‘miqat.’ Verse 20:86 captures “...was the time (of the Promised duration fulfilment) too long for you (afathwala).”

‘Fa akhlaftumma maw’idi’ - so you broke your promise to me (20:86) - indicates that they had earlier on pledged to wait patiently for Prophet Musa’s (pbuh) sojourn to lapse, though they felt impatient thereafter, implying a possibility of an additional waiting period (the 10 nights), though not the only option given their obstinate nature. They unanimously produced the calf (20:87-88) under the Samarian’s guile despite Prophet Haron (pbuh) warning them of such a trial (20:90). It is after the confrontation of the People by Prophet Musa (pbuh) upon his return back that new arrangements were made for another ‘miqat’ (7:144-145). Thus, with such a line of thought, I see a ‘possibility’ of the 40-nights sojourn being one during which were received the tablets, instructions and the lessons extracted from his conversation with God over various issues.


Regards,
Athman.

83

General Discussions / Re: Miqat in 7:142

« on: May 31, 2018, 03:48:10 PM »

Dear Student,

Salaam,

I agree that the 40-nights seclusion at the ‘miqat’ (appointed place) is truly ‘no ordinary’ sojourn and this owes to the epic moment of Prophet Musa (pbuh) being granted the Scrolls/Tablets (alwahi) containing instructions (maw’idhwat) and explanations (tafswila) of everything. Together with the direct conversation with God over some issues, this was a great honor indeed.

As regards the Biblical account, Exodus chapters 24:18 to 31:18 give a detailed summary of the sojourn for 40 days and 40 nights. Also see Exodus 34:10-27. In fact, Deuteronomy 5:7-21 point out on the 10 Commandments. The quotations below from the Bible seal the 40-period durations described in the citations given above, respectively.
 
“So he was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread nor drank water. And He wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.” (Exodus, 34:28)

 “These words the Lord spoke to all your assembly, in the mountain from the midst of the fire, the cloud, and the thick darkness, with a loud voice; and He added no more. And He wrote them on Two Tablets of stone and gave them to me.” (Deuteronomy, 5:22)

Relating these citations to the Qur’anic account of verses 7:144-147 among other chapters, it can be followed that both references recognize the epic incident during which Prophet Musa (pbuh) was given the Ten Commandments as what constitutes the 40-nights period.

As to the ‘30+10’ division, to my little knowledge, I think there’s no clear explicit reference to its significance as far as the Qur’an is concerned. However, extrapolations are however a times made to its interpretation. A good example that I find interesting is where Prophet Musa (pbuh) is said to initially have been informed of a 30-day ‘miqat’ with God. It is alleged that he told his People about his 30-day seclusion though in real sense, God had intended for him a 40-day sojourn. After the 30-day period, his People became impatient of his return, God having withheld him. They thus made a calf - through Samarian’s influence - and worshipped it (during those 10 days). The 10-days delay was a test for the People by God to distinguish the true believers from the false ones (20:83-85) and thus it was established. Though this is not directly evident from the relevant Qur’anic narratives, I find it somehow cogent.

I understand that this inquiry is directed to Br. Joseph and I apologize for any possible inconvenience by intervening.


Regards,
Athman.

84

General Discussions / Re: Miqat in 7:142

« on: May 30, 2018, 10:23:15 PM »

Dear Student,

As salaam alaikum,

I hope that it is Okay with you if I part with some thoughts on your inquiry above before Br. Joseph possibly gives his response.

‘Miqat’ from root ‘Waw-Qaf-Ta’ meaning 'to determine/appoint/fix/assign a time, measure of time (e.g, season)' [1] can be ‘a place in which a certain action/meeting is appointed to be performed/take place at a particular time’ [1] / ‘that which determines the commencement, or the like, of a period [1].’  From the context of the verses, in 7:142, ‘miqat’ would refer to the ‘appointed/fixed duration/period of time’ (40 nights) while ‘miqat’ in 7:143 would be referring to the ‘appointed place/venue’ - possibly the ‘blessed spot’ (28:30) to the ‘RHS/western side - of the Mount’ (20:80, 28:44/46). 7:155 also mentions of another ‘miqatina’ (appointment/meeting) this time round with a company of 70 men who after such ill wishful commands (2:55) were tremor-stricken.

About 1, 2, or 3, I see (7:144-147) briefly capturing details of his sojourn at the appointed venue (miqat) with God for 40 nights.

Hopefully that slightly helps.


Regards,
Athmani.


REFERENCE:

[1]. LANE. E.W, Edward Lanes Lexicon, Williams and Norgate 1863; Librairie du Liban Beirut-Lebanon 1968, Volume 8, Page 212

85

General Discussions / Re: Whats the understanding of 8:67?

« on: May 21, 2018, 10:08:19 PM »

Dear Aijaz,

Salaamun alaikum,

‘asra’ in 8:67 just hints on those that the Prophet (pbuh) is instructed to address in 8:70 thus establishing them to be ‘prisoners of war’ possibly as promised in 8:7. That which would have been taken from them (8:70 - ukhidha minkum, 8:68 - akhadhtum) could possibly be those ‘spoils’ - anfal in 8:1 after the promised  victory (8:7) that was bound to happen (8:42,44) and that same 'spoils' the believers are allowed to consume in 8:69.
In addition, 8:72-75 just try to elaborate on the different classes of the believers and their true positions with Allah as regards fighting in Allah’s cause, broadly, ‘Muhajireen’ and ‘Answar.’ See also verses 59:8-9 and 9:100 touching on the two groups.

Hopefully that somehow helps in sha Allah.

Regards,
Athman.

86

General Discussions / Re: Whats your understanding of Ayat 2:259

« on: May 16, 2018, 09:14:17 PM »

Dear Aijaz,

Salaam,

Kindly see the following response in a thread [3] below that I personally find summarily addressing your question. For a more detailed analysis and discussion of the same, refer to the accompanying threads [1] and [2].

“The reason the food and drink was left in tact was to contrast against the donkey bones so that the man could realise how long he had slept for. He initially thought he slept for a day or part of a day. By preserving his food and drink, it was another sign from God so as to clear any confusion that the man may have had and a further emphasis of His Power and Might.” [3]

Regards,
Athman.


REFERENCES:

[1]. four birds or four parts of the bird
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=417

[2]. Resurrection explained by a parable
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=257

[3]. Surah 2:259
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=936.0

87

General Discussions / Re: Whats the understanding of 8:67?

« on: May 16, 2018, 07:13:29 PM »

Dear Aijaz,

In my humble opinion, in 8:67, ‘yuthkhina’ would simply mean ‘having battled strenuously against /subdued’ (enemies) as in 47:4, ‘athkhantumuhum’ (having subdued them). ‘asra’ here is used as a plural ‘noun’ (singular ‘asir’ - captive, prisoner of war) as in 8:70 (al-‘asra’). Also see 2:85 (usara). Its verbal root being ‘Alif-Sin-Ra,’ - to make captive, prisoner, joint/ligament etc. [1], as a verb, it is used in its imperfect active form in 33:26 - ‘wata’siruna’ (and you took captive of).

With 17:1, ‘asra’ is used as a ‘verb’ in its perfect active form meaning - ‘to make anyone to travel by night, repair to an upland,’ It roots from the verbal root ‘Sa-Ra-Ya’ which means ‘to travel during the night, to depart/pass’ [2].

Also, while in 89:4 it is used in its imperfect active form - idha ‘yasri’ (as it passes/recedes), it is used in the imperative in 44:23 - fa ‘asri’ (set out/depart!). Also see 20:77.

Noun derivatives of the root verb include ‘sariyyan’ (stream, rivulet, fountain, chief of the nation) as in 19:24 and ‘sarat’ (summit, highest point) among others.

Therefore, ‘asra’ as a noun in 8:67 has a literal meaning of ‘captives/prisoners of war’ with a verbal root ‘Alif-Sin-Ra’ while ‘asra’ as a verb in 17:1 has a different meaning of ‘to repair somebody to some place’ with a different verbal root ‘Sa-Ra-Ya.’

8:67 simply reads:

“It is not for a prophet to take captives/ prisoners (of war) until he subdues - through strenuous battling (Allah's enemies) in the land (battlefield). Some Muslims desire the commodities of this world, but Allah desires [for you] the Hereafter. And Allah is Exalted in Might and Wise.”

Hopefully that somehow helps God willing.

Regards,
Athman.


REFERENCES:

[1]. Lane’s Lexicon Volume 1, Pp 94 & 95.

[2]. Ibid Volume 4, Pp 79 & 80.

88

General Discussions / Re: Predestined Rizq/earnings

« on: April 28, 2018, 04:40:29 PM »

Dear miracle114 and Duster,

I'm humbled. Your comments humbly appreciated. May Allah bless us all.
Thanks.

Regards,
Athman.

89

General Discussions / Re: Predestined Rizq/earnings

« on: April 27, 2018, 10:43:50 PM »

Dear miracle114,

Peace,

As regards to your question, in my humble view, the Qur’an captures the fact that Allah reserves the knowledge and might upon which an appropriate time and place at which the rizq of a creature is ordained/decreed. This is already inscribed in a divine Book (57:22). This does not however translate to a “no matter what one does, his rizq has already been preordained.”

“And there is no creature on earth but that upon Allah is its provision (rizquha), and He knows its place of dwelling and place of storage. All is in a clear register.” (Qur’an, Hud 11:6)

Allah is the Sustainer of every life in the Universe as the verse above says. Therefore, everything of provision that we consume, be it out of our efforts, of others or whatever the source, has a divine (Allah’s) decree from the point of its initiation to its full fruition. See the verses below:

“Say, ‘Have you seen what Allah has sent down to you of provision (rizqi)...’ ” (Qur’an, Yunus 10:59)

“And eat of what Allah has provided for you (razaqakumu), lawful and good. And fear Allah, in whom you are believers.” (Qur’an, Al- Ma’idah 5:88)

By Allah’s will, someone may earn of provisions in a manner they would not expect, possibly in the context of no much apparent effort put or in an exta-ordinary situation. The following verses attest to this:

“... And whoever fears Allah - He will make for him a way out. And will provide for him (yarzuqhu) from where he does not expect. And whoever relies upon Allah - then He is sufficient for him. Indeed, Allah will accomplish His purpose. Allah has already set for everything a [decreed] extent.” (Qur’an, At-Talaq, 65:2-3)

“..He said, ‘O Mary, from where is this [coming] to you?’ She said, ‘It is from Allah. Indeed, Allah provides for (yarzuqu) whom He wills without account.’ ” (Qur’an, Al-Imran 3:37)

However, as human beings, we have to work for an earning. The Qur’an instructs believers to scatter through the land to seek for Allah’s bounties after the Jumu’ah prayer (62:10). This clearly supports the idea that we have to toil to garner some earning.

In the main, as believers, I trust that we are at a clear informed position to subscribe to what is best captured by Br.Joseph in an FB post [1] “I guess, the only things that we can truly take away from this temporal earthly existence, are those things that we willingly give away...” What we give away in/for the name/sake of Allah, is what could actually be of great outcome in the Hereafter. The ultimate true 'rizq' that should be labored for is that one of the Hereafter. The verse below captures a similar concept:

“Indeed, Allah has purchased (ashtara) from the believers their lives and their properties [in exchange] for that they will have Paradise (...) so rejoice in your transaction (bibay’ikumu) which you have contracted. And it is that which the great attainment is.” (Qur’an, At-Tawbah 9:111)

In summary therefore, in my humble view, a preordained understanding of what one earns or incurs has to be contextualized in the remit of Allah who is not confined by time nor space. Practically, as a human being, one appreciates the efforts of one’s striving. In addition, as a believer, one acknowledges Allah’s role in play as to the decree of whatever an outcome. A times, it can be as like how one would expect, Allah being the Decreer. At other times, Allah intervenes and what might have been extra-ordinary ensues. This owes to His sole infinite wisdom behind an instantiation.

Hopefully that somehow helps.

Regards,
Athman.


REFERENCE:
[1]. The Only Things We Can Take Away ...
http://www.quransmessage.com/(9)%20Facebook/Shared/fbmainlinksFM2.htm

90

General Discussions / Re: Why are we here?

« on: April 10, 2018, 02:31:53 AM »

Dear Br. niaz,

Wa alaikumus salaam,

Thanks for your inclusive decision to open up this thread as a separate topic from that of our discussion earlier. However, respectfully, with the availability of a dedicated article on that main topic by Br. Joseph, and other lateral ones with subsequent separate and auxiliary threads, I as a result was expecting a counter critique in effect, if at all you consider those sentiments in the ‘Final Thoughts’ of the article (1) as staying out of kilter to your summary understanding of the topic or rather if you had any qualms with some specific interpretations through the discourse. As a detailed summary of the topic, covering at least the sample necessary Qur’anic citations that would provide ample evidence for the proffered understanding, I would not wish to rehash a treatise. In my humble view, as a typical quintessence in this forum and site for such a topic, I would have been readier responding to some contentions raised against it (1).

Respectfully Br. niaz, to the contrary, you provided a parallel discourse on the topic, with an overarching interpretation that follows a variant line of thought that in my opinion, is alien to the Qur’anic perspective, as far as the intermittent plot succession is concerned. I believe this is also open to commentary by the forum members and Br. Joseph if they wish to. Kindly follow my responses below to your exposition above.

I understand from your quotation of verses 7:24-25 that what has been rendered bold serves to underscore the premise that the 2 lives and 1 death – 2nd one, are promised to be established on Earth hence a previous death – 1st one, to have had been incumbent on us at some previous locale alien to this present one –earth. I do concur. However, the verses do not establish in effect that the total 2 lives and 2 deaths (40:11, 2:28) are exclusively meant for the ‘unrighteous’ as you point out in your Footnote [1] with the ‘righteous’ to be exempted from the 2nd death. In 44:56 you may deduce the form of the adjectival term ‘ula’ to designate something 'previous' as in 87:18 or 35:43 and not necessarily '1st' hence in that case, dwellers in Jannah ‘will not taste death therein beyond the previous one’ (44:56) - the 2nd one of the 2 deaths above.Concerning 2:154, I hope Br. Joseph’s 4th response in the thread (2) below aptly covers this.

About the purpose of our existence on earth, I hope 6:165 definitively responds to that notwithstanding such verses as (67:2, 29:2-3, 47:31). Articles (3) and (4) below by Br. Joseph also stand a better position to attest this, citing additional Qur’anic references to the effect.

In my opinion, despite much wisdom that can be extracted from the narratives of chapters 2, 7 and 20, the events chronology itself does not lay a platform upon which our purpose in life is established, nor does the eviction of Adam (allegedly with ‘all’ of us) from ‘Jannah’ constitute any of reasons why we should strive to do good, be faithful or worship and repent to Allah, among other responsibilities as believers.

I do concur with point ‘1’ of your exposition above and to the effect, I hope one would appreciate the innate predisposition one has to acknowledge the existence of a supreme being or rather to distinguish between right and wrong intuitively, as every soul is so inscribed (91:7-8). Br. Joseph points out on this in a thread (5) below.

As regards our 1st death, I do not follow such an event to be an intermittent one among those in the narrative of Adam and his spouse in the Qur’an. Rather, it was an event at some previous locale in our earlier physiological state. Br. Joseph captures this in a thread (6) below. I hope you do follow that 33:72 forms an earlier precursor with a ‘testimony’ in 7:172 before we were put into our 1st death after which our advent on earth follows. The 1st death needs not necessarily be interpreted as a ‘repercussion’ akin to the common adage ‘wages of sin is death.'


 With point ‘3(a),’ I humbly can’t connect a causal relationship between the two events and as article (1) below expounds ‘there is no disconnect in the theme of the Quranic narrative and therefore there is no reason to assume that the location has changed’ (2:30-35).Considering (2:37, 20:122), one would expect that by Allah accepting Adam’s repentance, no further punishment - in form of banishment - would follow bar the already resultant lowered status of his from a former privileged one (20:118-119). In my humble opinion, to claim a further punishment of death - our 1st death, and an extended one in this life - 1st life, to each of Adam’s offspring to ever live on this earth till the Day of Resurrection, is to impose a great alien doctrine on the Qur’an. This also makes such an alleged ‘Original Sin’ a ‘debt’ having a so great enormity to repay (despite the repentance in 7:23).

With ‘3(b),’ I hope one would appreciate the full wording of 2:35 read in tandem with 7:19 as regards to what is addressed in 7:11. In the two verses, ‘anta wa zaujuka,’ ‘shi’tuma,’ and ‘taqraba’ well establish those who were being addressed as being a 'duo'. Also, reading 2:36 together with 7:24 and 20:123, one would appreciate the use of the phrase ‘ihbithu’ or ‘ba’dhuhum liba’dhwi aduwwun,’ in reference to Adam and his spouse, given that 7:13 testifies to the former as regards the 'duo' with 'Iblees' while 20:117 does the same to the latter. This may also clarify an understanding which follows suit from 2:38 read with 7:18 relating ‘jami’a’ to ‘a’jmain.’ 20:120 read together with 7:20 only corroborates the idea that it was Adam and his spouse (fa waswas lahuma) that got lured into Iblees’s guile and not us all. Verses 7:21 to 7:24 of the narrative of that chapter also address the two (- ma) all along.

Verse 20:126 points to one of reasons why Allah shall render ‘forgotten’ those who used to ‘forget’ his revelations here on earth, on that Day. Not having not yet ‘repaid’ the ‘Original Sin’ but having ignored the ‘amanat’ (2:40-46) which became incumbent on Adam’s offspring since 33:72 and 7:172.

With the idea that we being here ipso facto constitutes a reason that we may haven’t yet ‘fulfilled’ our purpose on earth which entails our ‘repaying’ of the Original Sin/ ‘debt’ and that Adam did his and died - 2nd death, you ignore your earlier assumption that Adam ‘includes’ us thus for 20:112 with (7:23, 2:37), we ought to have been pardoned with our progenitors. In my opinion, the difficulty that may sometimes appear in accepting or reconciling some related verses could a times be as a result of some premise or preconceived notion we may have imposed on the verses or ourselves. A times, it wholly renders an interpretation ambiguous. I do concur with point '4' of your discourse above.

With your Footnote [3], I respectfully find that you misrepresent my understanding and I believe the article’s proposition on the concept of ‘Adam’s destined abode.’ Not that ‘Paradise’ was on earth, rather, a 'privileged' state of ‘felicity’ had been conferred to Adam and his spouse on earth, before they were removed from it to a lower one, still on earth.

Regarding your second address on ‘evolution' in Appendix B, notwithstanding the great wisdom that can be drawn from the narrative of Adam as captured in chapters 2, 7 and 20, I don’t see how the narratives should restrictively be read to solely extract some spiritual knowledge and not any possible further prudence. This should however not be assumed as vouching for some possible basis of evolutionary creation as a process, as attributed to by some scholars and proponents as you intimated above. This though should not waver one’s pursuance of the narratives as appear in the Qur’an as regards supporting evolution staying cautious as to putting such gleaned information in its right category with respect to its epistemic value, especially if supported by other verses elsewhere. This is true of every narrative in the Qur’an presented for purposes of spiritual knowledge as well as other multi-faceted wisdom.

Thanks.


Regards,

Athman.


REFERENCES:

(1). ADAM (pbuh) AND JANNAH - AN EARTHLY ABODE OR PARADISE?
http://quransmessage.com/articles/adam%20and%20jannah%20FM3.htm

(2). Is the Prophet Muhamad Alive?
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1084.msg4510#msg4510

(3). A PURPOSE TO CREATION - THE POWER OF TRUTH
http://quransmessage.com/articles/creation%20purpose%20FM3.htm

(4). WE WILL BE TESTED
http://quransmessage.com/articles/tests%20FM3.htm

(5). regarding the ayat 7:172
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1226.0

(6). First life in the Heavens,Second life in Earth
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=116