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Salaamun alaikum,

Nice link ... the science is solid, very well done! Some of my understanding/leaning on your observations ....

1. In 67:5, 41:12, God says the "lowest sky" or "the sky of this world" (السَّمَاءَ الدُّنْيَا) was adorned with lamps, which have to be stars. In 10:5, 71:16 the sun is described with other synonyms of lamps. In 37:6 كَوَاكِبِ can still mean planets, since they orbit stars. Which means God adorned the lowest sky with planetary systems.

• note: stars and planets did not adorn our universe when God created it. Stars adorned our universe later (estimated as a couple of hundred million years after the creation).
  

2. Just like الْحَيَوةَ الدُّنْيَا - "the life of this world" which is life in our universe, I understand السَّمَاءَ الدُّنْيَا as the sky that we can observe from this world - i.e., our observable universe, so I agree with your "third scenario". 41:12 says each sky was given its own law (أَمْرَ). So the laws that govern the other skies may not be the same as in ours.

3. 65:12 can also mean similarity in number. I.e., every sky also has land (الْأَرْضِ) in them.

Peace.

Salaam miracle114,

I personally like these passages ....

17:22-39
23:1-9
31:12-19
70:22-34
25:63-74
2:177
2:261-283

Some commandments are emphasized more than others. The commands are so vast, and a challenge to actually practice [giving full measure in our daily transactions is not as easy as growing a beard], focussing on those that we know or remember and implementing them in their lives may be the way to do it.

Peace

Salaamun alaikum,

Further, "planet earth" is a restricted meaning of the arabic الأرْضَ. Literally "the land", it is a meaning that is not restricted to this planet. The planet earth itself is neither special or significant in the scale of the cosmos, nor is our sun, our solar system or even our galaxy. God made the whole universe conducive for life, and this planet formed from solar material just like other planets here, and like the exoplanets spread around the universe formed from stellar material. See here for a prior discussion ....

http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1790.msg13017#msg13017

Regardless, God asks us to reflect upon nature. The very message of these verses is to make us observe and reflect and think and contemplate and ponder on the world around us, as God emphasizes over and over in the Quran. We are responsible for how we use our minds and our senses (17:36). This rational contemplation teaches us that our universe is not geocentric, and not even heliocentric. We are just little beings inhabiting an unordinary land mass on a spiral arm of an unordinary galaxy.

Geocentrism and flat-earthism is an irrational conspiratorial movement. It is amazing how the Quranist movement got sucked into this and other conspiracy theories. In the process, they have stripped the Quran of its spiritual message and emphasis on worshipping and being appreciative to God, and of its rationality, in one go.

Peace.

Salaam student,

Thank you for this information. I too believe that Sura 9 revealed to Muhammad has only 127 verses, count of the word Allah in the Quran is 2698, and that the 2 verses numbered 128 and 129 in standard Hafs mushafs (or 129, 130 in others) are fabrications.

My post above related to the symmetry of the names of Jesus and Adam is independent of the number of verses in Sura 9.

Peace

Salaamun 'alaikum,

Brother Athman, this post was inspired by our discussion. It is mostly just a rehash, I have tried to present my thoughts in a more organized manner. I know you proposed writing a directed critique of brother Joseph's article on "paradise on earth"; but I have briefly noted why I disagree with its main premise, without mentioning the article itself. And that question is not the central theme of this post. I decided to fulfill your proposal by summarizing my understanding instead.

I know I might have mischaracterized your position or that of the article, as often happens in debates/discussions like this. Please feel free to correct/clarify and/or restate your critique. If there is no major new information beyond what we already discussed, I don't anticipate myself adding anything to this thread.

Peace

[Appendix A]

Appendix A

بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم

[2:30-39] And when your Lord said to the angels, I am the appointer of a substitute on the land, they said will You appoint someone therein who will spread corruption and shed blood, while we glorify and praise You and consider You sacred?  He said I have complete knowledge while you do not know.    And He taught Adam all the names, afterwards, He presented them to the angels and said, inform Me of these names if you are truthful.    They said, glory be to You, we have no knowledge except what You have taught us. Indeed, You are The All Knowing, The All Wise.    He said, O Adam; inform them of their names. Once he informed them of their names, He said, did I not tell you that I fully know the secret of the vacua and matter and fully know what you declare and what you conceal.    And when We said to the angels; honor Adam, they all honored him, except Iblis who refused; he turned arrogant and became a disbeliever.    And We said to Adam, dwell in paradise, you and your wife and eat from it whatever you desire, however, do not approach this tree, lest both of you become transgressors.    However, Satan duped the two of them and caused their eviction from where they were, and We said; go down as enemies of one another, and the land shall be your abode and sustenance for awhile.    Subsequently, Adam received from his Lord words by which He accepted his repentance. Indeed, He is The Accepter of Repentance, The All Merciful.    We said, go down from here all of you. Then when you all receive guidance from Me, whoever follows My guidance has nothing to fear nor will he grieve.    As for those who are unfaithful and rejected Our proofs, they are dwellers of Hell. They will abide therein eternally.

[7:10-25] And, We certainly established you on the land and provided for you therein sustenance. Indeed very few are grateful.   And indeed, We created you, then We designed you, We then said to the angels to honor Adam, they immediately honored him except Iblees who was not one of the honorers.    He said; what prevented you from honoring him when I commanded you? He said; I am better than he, You created me from fire and you created him from clay.   He said; then you shall go down therefrom, for you shall never be arrogant therein, therefore, get out, for indeed you are lowly.   He said; respite me until the Day of Resurrection.   He said; you shall have a respite.    He said; since you have enticed me, I will surely divert them from Your straight path.   Then I will surely come to them from their front and their back and their right and their left; and You will find most of them ungrateful.     He said; get out therefrom debased and expelled. Indeed those among them who follow you, I will surely fill Gehenna with you altogether.   As for you O Adam, you shall settle, you and your wife in Paradise, and eat from whatever the two of you desire, however, do not approach this one tree, lest you will transgress.   Thereafter, Satan duped them in order to reveal what was hidden of their bodies and said; your Lord did not forbid you from this tree except to prevent you from becoming angels or becoming immortal.     And he swore by both that indeed I am giving you good advice.    He therefore caused their fall with a lie.   Consequently, once both tasted the tree, their bodies became visible to them and they tried to cover themselves with the leaves of Paradise.  And their Lord called upon them; did I not forbid this tree for the two of you and did I not tell you both that Satan is your most ardent enemy?   They said, our Lord, we have been unjust towards our own souls and if You do not forgive us and do not have mercy upon us, we will surely end up losers.   He said; go down as enemies of one another. And the land will be your abode and sustenance for a while.   He said; in it you will live and in it you will die and from it you will come out.   

[20:115-127] And indeed We made an agreement with Adam previously, he then forgot, We did not find him resolute.    And when We said to the angels, honor Adam, they all did, except Iblis who refused.    We then said; O Adam, indeed he is an enemy of you and your wife, he would cause your eviction from Paradise and you will suffer hardship.    Indeed you will never suffer hunger therein nor will you ever be naked.   And indeed you will never thirst therein and never suffer the heat of the sun.    Then Satan enticed them saying; O Adam shall I show you the tree of eternity and everlasting kingship?    Then they both ate from it, whereupon their bodies became visible to them and they tried to cover themselves with the leaves of Paradise.  And Adam disobeyed his Lord and he then became a transgressor.     Then his Lord chose him, accepted his repentance and guided him.    He said the two of you get out therefrom with the rest as enemies of one another. Therefore, when guidance comes to you from Me, then whoever follows My guidance, he will never go astray nor will he suffer any hardship.    And whoever rejects My reminder, he will then surely have a life of hardship, and We will summon him on the Day of Resurrection blind.    He said, my Lord why did you summon me blind when I used to be a seer.    He said; because when Our proofs came to you, you chose to ignore them, and you are thus ignored today.    And We thus requite the one who transgresses and does not believe in the signs of his Lord. And indeed the suffering of the Hereafter is far more severe and everlasting.   

In each of these passages the starting verse serves as a preface, summarizing the gist of what had happened - that God appointed humans as a substitute/successor and established us on the land/earth (2:30, 7:10). The former of these verses is in future tense, addressed to the angels before the creation of humans, and the latter is in past tense, addressed to us. And also that God made a covenant with Adam, but he forgot (20:115). The fulfillment of this event is described over the course of the remaining part of the passages, that follows in roughly chronological sequence, from the creation of humans until our eviction from paradise. These are the events that are explicitly listed in them.

• God creates and designs all of us (including Adam). (7:11).
• Adam demonstrates the knowledge that God taught him. (2:31-33)
• Iblis' refusal to obey God commands to honor Adam, and God granting him respite to entice humans (2:34, 7:11-18, 20:116).
• God asks Adam/wife to dwell in paradise. God warns Adam not to eat from a specific tree, and warns him that Satan is his most ardent enemy, heeding whom will cause his eviction from paradise. (2:35, 7:19,22, 20:117-119).
• Satan tricks Adam/wife into breaking God's commandment and eating from the tree. (2:36, 7:20-22, 20:120-121).
• God rebukes Adam/wife, reminds him of His warning, and commands "all of you" (including each of us) to go down to the earth. (2:36,38, 7:24-25, 20:123).
• Adam receives words/guidance through which he repents, and God accepted his repentance. (2:37,20:122).
• The rest of humanity is expected to follow suit - when God's guidance comes to us, we have to follow the guidance and repent to God (2:38, 20:123-127).

Appendix B: What about the theory of evolution?

The account of the creation and descent of humans to earth is often attempted to be reconciled with what we know about human origins from evolution. The traditional belief, that is mainstream to the three Abrahamic faiths, is usually that Adam was created in earthly human form, and physically brought down from paradise to earth. This runs counter to the evidence from science that modern humans evolved from humanoids who in turn evolved from ape-like species a few million years ago.

On the other hand, some of those who tried to reconcile the Quranic account with the theory of evolution, have tried to interpret the "fall" of humans from paradise as the migration of a pre-existing humanoid population out of a garden in Africa. I too seriously dabbled with this idea at one time, before realizing it was futile to take the description in the Quran, and try to "fit" it with events in Africa in the past 200,000 years since the dawn of homo sapiens, or around the world since 50,000 years ago when humans migrated and settled down in different corners the world. And the simple message conveyed through the Quran was lost, in this pursuit. The purpose of reading the Quran became seeking scientific validation for it, instead of learning what God is teaching us. So I abandoned this approach, and decided to focus on the spiritual message that the Quran is teaching us.

Now in the light of the knowledge that we were created and designed by God before the event of the original sin, we were participants in it along with Adam, we were evicted along with Adam from paradise, and we went through the first death before God brought us to life again here on this earth, I can look at evolution from a fresh perspective. And strangely enough, there is no conflict with evolution at all. God created and designed us as our souls before this life (also see 4:1, 7:189, 39:6). What we acquire when we come into this life is the body, which is only a garment or a shell for the soul, that we will leave behind when we leave this world. When God sent us (our souls) to this world, the mechanism was through fashioning our bodies in our mother's womb (39:6, 22:5, 3:6, 16:78). There is no reason why the mechanism Adam was sent would have been any different. The theory of evolution describes how the function and structure of our bodies evolved here on earth, from related organisms. This universe, and its laws, are finite and will eventually expire. The Quran contains in the guidance on how to grow our soul, to become close to Him and look forward to spend eternity in peace with Him when we return to Him.

[Why are we here?]

أعوذ بالله من الشيطان الرجيم

بسم االله الرحمن الرحیم

Why are we here?

[7:24-25] He said; go down as enemies of one another. And the land/earth will be your abode and sustenance for a while.   He said; in it you will live and in it you will die and from it you will come out.

The purpose of our lives and our existence on earth is the most fundamental question that the human mind has struggled with since the dawn of history. It is the essential quest of all spiritual paths and religious traditions. This article examines what the Quran has to say about this question - reading the relevant Quranic passages as simple narratives, attempting to take the  explicit, evident, obvious information from them. And to avoid speculative post analysis of Quranic verses to reach conclusions that contradict or diverge from the simple message we can glean from them. And accept the Quranic narrative, even when there are differences between it and the narrative that Islamic tradition has handed down to us.

The main passages that narrate how we came to be on this earth, and the purpose of our lives here are 2:30-39, 7:10-25, 20:115-127. But first let us review a few verses that establish some background on our existence before our presence on this earth.

1. As humans, we existed, and took a covenant with God, before our life here on earth ...

[7:172] And when your Lord gathered from the children of Adam, to bear witness for themselves; Am I not your Lord? They said yes indeed, we bear witness, lest you say on the Day of Resurrection; we were unaware of this.

[33:72] We indeed offered the secretariat to the skies and the land and the mountains but they turned it down and were afraid to accept it, however, the human being accepted it. Indeed, he was most unjust, ignorant.

These verses refer to events that happened before our life on the earth, where we took a covenant with God, and also accepted responsibility for the burdens we would bear in the life to come on the earth. We may not grasp the full import of these verses, but the least that we can take away from them, is that we did exist even before we came here to the earth, and that our journey to the earth was our own making. For the sake of our own salvation, we should trust God and His word, even as we do not remember the details of the events as they transpired before we came here.

2. We have experienced death once,  before we entered this life.

[40:11] They say, our Lord, You have given us two deaths and two lives, we now confess our sins, is there any way out?    

[2:28] How can you have no faith in God, the One who resurrected you from death, then He puts you to death, and subsequently He gives you life, then to Him you will return.

God tells us clearly in these verses that we did experience death once, before we came to this world, and the death we encounter at the end of this life, is a second death.^[1] The fact that this is not what we heard taught by Islamic tradition should not be an excuse not to accept it. 2:28 is an important precursor to the passage 2:30-39, which sheds light on why God resurrected us from our first death, as we will study below.

3. Our fall from paradise.

We can read the passages in the Quran that record our transition from paradise to this earth in Appendix A. The observations we can make from this reading are ...

(a) Our life on earth is a consequence of the original sin.

[2:36] But Satan caused them to slip from it, and caused them to depart the state they were in. We said, "Go down, some of you enemies of one another. And you will have residence on earth, and enjoyment for a while."

The logical connection between the sin of Adam of eating from the tree, and being sent down to the earth is very self-evident in the verse. A simple reading of the verse provides no justification for a claim that there is no connection between the two, and they have just been mentioned together sequentially for no reason whatsoever. The same is true in 7:22-24 and 20:121-123, where our eviction to the earth follows the action of eating from the tree, and God's expressed disapproval of it. They are not disconnected events, but the latter is a consequence of the former. Our life on earth is a consequence of the original sin.

The causal relationship between Adam's sin and our existence on earth is not in dispute, even from the traditional viewpoint. That is clearly the event that led to our eviction from paradise.

(b) We were all participants in the original sin.

[7:11] And indeed, We created all of you, then We designed all of you, We then said to the angels to honor Adam, they immediately honored him except Iblees who was not one of the honorers.

It is interesting that in 7:11, the creation and design of "all of you" (i.e., each of us) is followed by the command to the angels to honor^[2] Adam. Essentially the word 'Adam' switched for all of humanity in the verse. This means that we were also present, when the command to the angels to honor Adam was given. The recurring references in second person plural in the verses [e.g., اهْبِطُو ("go down you all") in 2:36,38] also makes this evident. The references to Adam in these passages can therefore be understood as applying to all of humanity. Some may argue that the plural is used in a restricted reference to Adam/wife and Iblis only.^[3] But the context of the verses - e.g., 2:38, 7:25, 20:123-127 - which contain the instructions for all of humanity, makes it clear that the usage of plural does refer to all of humanity. Further, the fact that we live on this earth confirms it is referring to us too - Adam/wife were not the only ones consigned to live on earth.

Further, this is not even a far-fetched or ground breaking idea. Traditional commentators have also espoused it. For example,

• The Study Quran^[4] (footnote 36, p. 24) says, "The interpretation most in keeping with the Quranic text understands the addresses to be Adam and Eve and all their progeny, sometimes including Iblis and his progeny, with Adam and Eve representing humanity as a whole".
• Muhammad Ali's translation^[5] (footnote 52 to v. 31, p. 18) says, "Adam, therefore, though it may also be the name of a particular man stands for man generally".

So when we see this event, with the word 'Adam' describing "man generally" or "humanity as a whole", it makes us participants in the original sin. Each of us ("all of you") were created/designed before the event (7:11), and sent to the earth along with Adam after the event (2:36,38; 7:24-25; 20:123), establishing our presence during the event too. Another reason is that no soul bears the burden of another (6:164).  If only Adam/wife were participants in the original sin, we should not have been here, since God would not make us bear the burden for what only they did.

But this does beg the question - why does the God describe Adam/wife as the principal actors in the original sin, although we can infer that the description includes us and we were present when the event happened? One reason may be that Adam was here first, and fulfilled the purpose for which he was sent down - he followed God's guidance, repented to God and was forgiven by God for his transgression. We are still here and have not yet returned to God. Adam is described here as the example for us to follow. In any event, following God's guideline in 3:7, even if we do not have all the answers, we should simply accept what is clear/evident, and eschew speculation on what may be ambiguous/allegorical.

4. Our primary purpose in this life is to worship God.

[2:38-29] We said, go down from here all of you. Then when you all receive guidance from Me, whoever follows My guidance has nothing to fear nor will he grieve.  As for those who are unfaithful and rejected Our proofs, they are dwellers of Hell. They will abide therein eternally.

[51:56] I did not create the jinns and the humans except to worship Me.

Now that we are here, this is the most important thing for us to remember - we are here to worship God by commemorating Him alone, and following His guidance. These will be successful ones, who spend eternity in peace with God, in the life to come. This statement of purpose elicits the question - why does God need our worship? The truth is God does not need our worship. To God belongs everything in the skies and the land, and God does not need our worship, nor our faith nor our obedience. Rather, we are in need of worshipping Him and obeying Him and being faithful to Him (35:15, 27:40, 4:131, 31:12, 47:38, 57:24, 64:6).

Summary

.

In summary, putting together what we learned in the sections above, the Quran describes our existence prior to our coming to this earth. We will not remember the details, but God gives us just enough detail for us to know that we were participants in an act of disobedience against God. We made a covenant with God, to obey Him, and not to listen to satan, who is our avowed enemy. Satan is condemned to an end of misery, and misery seeks company. Satan is out to entice us towards an eternity of pain and suffering, and entrap as many of us as possible. Our act of transgression the first time, resulted in our first death, in paradise. And this life on earth is our resurrection from the first death (2:28). It is our second chance - to seek God, to worship God, to commemorate God, to obey God, to reconnect with God, and become close to God. Those of us who blow this second chance too will rue it on the Day of Resurrection. Those who repented and followed God's guidance when it came to them, God will accept their repentance, forgive them and guide them, just like He forgave Adam. These will be the ones whom "God has blessed" (1:7), and we should constantly pray to be included among them.

Footnotes:

[1] The verses above describe the experience of the unrighteous, as they reflect back on the day of Resurrection, and how they blew their second chance too. And a reminder to those seek to reject faith in God. The Quran also teaches us that the righteous only go through the first death, and do not experience the second death, even though their departure would appear like death from our perspective (44:56, 2:154).
[2] The word ا ْس ُجُدوا also refers to physical prostration to God, for example during the contact prayer. Here, as an act between two creations, it takes the nuanced meaning of 'honor' or 'pay respect to'.
[3] Some may have difficulty accepting the idea we were also participants in the original sin, since they believe that paradise was on earth. And that after the original sin, Adam and wife simply strolled out of an earthly garden onto other earthly landscapes. In that case, we were not yet born, so they see no way for us to have been present at the time. Others may interpret the fall from paradise as the migration of a humanoid population out of an earthly garden, believing that this reconciles the Quranic account with evolution (see Appendix B). I see the pursuit of the question on whether paradise was on earth an extraneous tangent to the quest of understanding why we are here. Following the simple chronology in the narration, paradise and earth are explicitly described as separate places (e.g., 2:35 vs. 2:38, 7:19 vs. 7:24-25). The former was their dwelling place before the original sin. The latter was their new abode, after the original sin. Regardless of whether "go down" really means "go down", this is direct evidence that they were separate places, and "the land/earth will be your abode" meant that paradise was not on this land/earth to begin with.
[4] The Study Quran, Harper Collins Publishers, First Edition, 2015
[5] Ahmadiyya Anjuman Isha'at Islam Lahore, Inc. U.S.A., Second Revised Edition, Reprint 1995

Salaamun 'alaikum,

Yes, Duster nailed it ... that the Quran was transmitted in parallel as an ORAL transmission. When Muhammad recited the Quran, he would either have done it either always as 'la yaqrabu' or as 'la taqrabu', and not arbitrarily choosing every time; even though the letters would have looked the same in the "unadorned text". If one claims that all ya's and ta's are arbitrarily interchangeable since diacritical points are not "intrinsic to the original unadorned text", then the Quran will not make any sense. The numerical structure of the Quran also confirms that ya's and ta's are definite and distinct - there are 2 suras with the letter 'ya' as an initial, the 19th sura Maryam [kaf ha ya 'ayn saad], and the 19th initialed sura (sura 36)  [ya seen]; whose initial counts are 798 = 19x42 and 285 = 19x15 respectively. We can't arbitrarily read it as 'ya seen' or 'ta seen'.

Peace.

Salaam Athman,

Thank you. I can leave it there too. Not to continue the discussion any further, but only a quick clarification [since you mentioned 2:134], and I don't want the thread to end on a core misunderstanding about my perspective ... I am not saying we are responsible for something that only Adam did, in which we had no involvement - that would be negated by many verses, including 2:134. From my perspective, we are obviously equal participants in the original sin.

I don't want to write a critique on Joseph's article. I do have disagreements [and agreements] with different articles from different people, I don't intend to be writing critiques to all of them. Since you brought it up, I responded to you about it. But I can insha allah write an article summarizing my understanding on the passages, and addressing possible misconceptions and challenges, using the material in this thread as a reference. That may be a better starting point, than this thread.

Peace.

Salaam Shahmatt,

The difference I see is this ... on Friday ( يَوْمِ الْجُمُعَةِ - day of Congregation), we take a break from trade/work to observe الصَّلوةُ (the contact prayer) and commemorate God, in congregation. When the contact prayer is done, we return to our trade/work [seek God's bounty]. So Friday is not a day we are expected to 'rest', it is a regular work day, and the congregational contact prayer is in the middle of the work day.

The Sabbath is abstaining from trade/work and rest for the whole calendar day (sundown to sundown) of Saturday (or يَوْمُ السَّبْتْ in arabic - the day of the Sabbath). For example, the fishermen in 7:163 should have abstained from fishing on that day. We do not spend the whole day in الصَّلوةُ (contact prayer).

Peace.

[paradise]

Salaam Athman,

I did the best I could to highlight/bold the source and destination locations, which are clearly and separately identified, to get your attention to this, which I personally consider the "direct evidence" that the article made the claim as missing. I rest my case with this post, insha allah; I'll try to summarize my takeaway from the passage, and the other passages in the Quran that relate the same history. And yes, we were destined to be here, but the pre-destination does not contradict the fact that we are here as a consequence of the original sin. I don't know if you are suggesting that we are not here as a result of it. The pharaoh was predestined to drown in the sea, but his drowning was also a consequence of his tyrannical ways he led his life on earth. The event is also repeated in 7:10-25, 20:115-127. In both these cases, just like in 2:30-39, it is first prefaced by the 'destined' end result (as in 2:30) - that  humanity was established on the land/earth (7:10), and how Adam forgot the covenant he had with God, because he did not stand firm to satan (20:115). Then all three accounts proceed to detail the logical sequence of events, starting from our creation, and  God's commandment to the angels to acknowledge or honor us for the intellectual capabilities God bestowed upon us ....

(0) Preface (2:30, 7:10, 20:115), introducing God's plan to place a substitute or successor on the land/earth, and the result: that Adam broke God's covenant under the influence of satan; and that we are established upon the earth [fulfilled through events (3) or (4) below].
(1) Creation of Adam and each of us (7:11), God's command to the angels, and the disobedience and fall of satan
(2) Dwelling of Adam/wife in paradise and the commandment of the tree
(3) Satan tricking Adam/wife into breaking the commandment of the tree.
(4) The expulsion of Adam/wife and satan, with "all of you" (addressing the audience of the Quran) to another place - the earth - as a temporary abode.
(5) Then during his earthly life, Adam receives words/guidance from God; and God accepts Adam's repentance.
(6) The purpose of our temporary existence here on this on earth, outlined for the rest of us ("all of you" ... the audience of the Quran) ...

• that we will receive guidance from God, and whoever among us will follow God's guidance has nothing to fear or grieve. If we turn to God, our repentance will be accepted, just as Adam's was.
• And if we reject/ignore God's reminder/proofs when it comes to us, we will end up among those who are ignored on the Day of Judgement.

This is the best answer we have to the deepest and most fundamental question in the mind of every human ... why are we here on earth? what is the purpose of our existence here? And this is a logical sequence - (4) was a consequence of (3), and (5) the atonement (tawba) for what happened in (3). If we don't read it as a simple and logical narrative, and break it up and make conclusions that are contradictory to this narrative, the message is lost. You have clarified that you do not have 'a pre-conceived assumption to conflate some theological perspective nor a world-wide or scientific view ...', but I failed to see the underlying reason to dispute or offer a counter narrative to the simple, logical, narration of events.

I admit I would have come across as opinionated .... my goal was not to badger, but to communicate my thoughts, and highlight the gaps in our perspectives. This has been an interesting and enlightening discussion, and thanks to you for that.

Peace.

أعوذ بالله من الشيطان الرجيم

بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم

[2:30-39]And when your Lord said to the angels, I am the appointer of a substitute on the land, they said will You appoint someone therein who will spread corruption and shed blood, while we glorify and praise You and consider You sacred?  He said I have complete knowledge while you do not know.    And He taught Adam all the names, afterwards, He presented them to the angels and said, inform Me of these names if you are truthful.    They said, glory be to You, we have no knowledge except what You have taught us. Indeed, You are The All Knowing, The All Wise.    He said, O Adam; inform them of their names. Once he informed them of their names, He said, did I not tell you that I fully know the secret of the vacua and matter and fully know what you declare and what you conceal.    And when We said to the angels; honor Adam, they all honored him, except Iblis who refused; he turned arrogant and became a disbeliever.    And We said to Adam, dwell in paradise, you and your wife and eat from it whatever you desire, however, do not approach this tree, lest both of you become transgressors.    However, Satan duped the two of them and caused their eviction from where they were, and We said; go down as enemies of one another, and the land shall be your abode and sustenance for awhile.    Subsequently, Adam received from his Lord words by which He accepted his repentance. Indeed, He is The Accepter of Repentance, The All Merciful.    We said, go down from here all of you. Then when you receive guidance from Me, whoever follows My guidance has nothing to fear nor will he grieve.    As for those who are unfaithful and rejected Our proofs, they are dwellers of Hell. They will abide therein eternally.

[7:10-25] And, We certainly established you on the land and provided for you therein sustenance. Indeed very few are grateful.    And indeed, We created you, then We designed you, We then said to the angels to honor Adam, they immediately honored him except Iblees who was not one of the honorers.    He said; what prevented you from honoring him when I commanded you? He said; I am better than he, You created me from fire and you created him from clay.   He said; then you shall go down therefrom, for you shall never be arrogant therein, therefore, get out, for indeed you are lowly.   He said; respite me until the Day of Resurrection.   He said; you shall have a respite.    He said; since you have enticed me, I will surely divert them from Your straight path.   Then I will surely come to them from their front and their back and their right and their left; and You will find most of them ungrateful.     He said; get out therefrom debased and expelled. Indeed those among them who follow you, I will surely fill Gehenna with you altogether.   As for you O Adam, you shall settle, you and your wife in Paradise, and eat from whatever the two of you desire, however, do not approach this one tree, lest you will transgress.   Thereafter, Satan duped them in order to reveal what was hidden of their bodies and said; your Lord did not forbid you from this tree except to prevent you from becoming angels or becoming immortal.     And he swore by both that indeed I am giving you good advice.    He therefore caused their fall with a lie.   Consequently, once both tasted the tree, their bodies became visible to them and they tried to cover themselves with the leaves of Paradise.  And their Lord called upon them; did I not forbid this tree for the two of you and did I not tell you both that Satan is your most ardent enemy?   They said, our Lord, we have been unjust towards our own souls and if You do not forgive us and do not have mercy upon us, we will surely end up losers.   He said; go down as enemies of one another. And the land will be your abode and sustenance for a while.   He said; in it you will live and in it you will die and from it you will come out.   

[20:115-127] And indeed We made an agreement with Adam previously, he then forgot, We did not find him resolute.    And when We said to the angels, honor Adam, they all did, except Iblis who refused.    We then said; O Adam, indeed he is an enemy of you and your wife, he would cause your eviction from Paradise and you will suffer hardship.    Indeed you will never suffer hunger therein nor will you ever be naked.   And indeed you will never thirst therein and never suffer the heat of the sun.    Then Satan enticed them saying; O Adam shall I show you the tree of eternity and everlasting kingship?    Then they both ate from it, whereupon their bodies became visible to them and they tried to cover themselves with the leaves of Paradise.  And Adam disobeyed his Lord and he then became a transgressor.     Then his Lord chose him, accepted his repentance and guided him.    He said the two of you get out therefrom with the rest as enemies of one another. Therefore, when guidance comes to you from Me, then whoever follows My guidance, he will never go astray nor will he suffer any hardship.    And whoever rejects My reminder, he will then surely have a life of hardship, and We will summon him on the Day of Resurrection blind.    He said, my Lord why did you summon me blind when I used to be a seer.    He said; because when Our proofs came to you, you chose to ignore them, and you are thus ignored today.    And We thus requite the one who transgresses and does not believe in the signs of his Lord. And indeed the suffering of the Hereafter is far more severe and everlasting.    
   

[go down from here all of you]

Salaam Athman. Thanks for the response. You have shared your perspective, and I had shared mine. We can trust that each of us will "consider" and "reconsider" what the other has said and form our own views, in our own course of time, without feeling the need to make each other agree.

For the meaning of السَّمَوَتِ وَالأرْضَ in the verses on creation (e.g., 41:11), I don't have anything further to add, beyond what I have already stated before. Just a comment on considering the context of a "7th century Arabian" ... I agree in many cases, it is judicious to do so; e.g., when God tells us not to eat the meat of the خِنْزِيرِ  (pig) or to observe the صَّلَوٰةَ (contact prayer) or perform the سُّجُودِ (prostration) etc. there is no reason to pretend not to know the meaning, or ask silly questions on how to follow the commandment. We just "hear and obey" using the known, established meaning of the word, just like the 7th century Arab would have been expected to simply obey without questioning the meaning himself.

At the same time, the Quran is a living book, and God continues to reveal His signs in nature and scripture to every generation. What we know now on natural phenomena, by God's leave, may be a lot more than what previous generations or 7th century Arabs knew, and we shape our understanding of the Quran accordingly, especially if the old interpretation or ascribed meaning contradicts or makes little sense in the light of what we now know. For example, today, we can understand عَلَقٍ [e.g., 96:2] as the embryo that is 'implanted' or 'hanging' on the uterine wall. The 7th century Arab may have understood it as 'blood clot'. We can look at the range of meanings of the word, and revise our understanding based on our current knowledge, without restricting ourselves to what might have been known in the 7th century.

On جَنَّةَ (paradise) being on earth, I had read through the article when you first cited it, and the arguments I raised were specifically those that were not addressed in the article to begin with. Then referring me back to the article is of little help.  My main point is that the destination of the relocation is clearly mentioned as الأرْضِ (earth). If you are told that you are going down from place A, and your dwelling is now going to be in place B for some time, it is obvious / common sense that place A is not already in place B. There is no reference to this made in the article.

And as a matter of general approach to understanding the Quran, I advocate reading the Quran sequentially [verse after verse], and in context, and take the simple, evident, common sense meaning that is imported by a whole passage or series of verses. The simple meaning here is that we were in some place  جَنَّةَ, and as a consequence of the original sin, we were relocated from that place to this earth. Of course, this was in accordance with God's plan (2:30). Now if we make inferences and try to extrapolate interpretations [تَأْوِيلِ] from Quranic verses, and claim that those interpretations contradict the simple meaning of a Quranic passage, in my  view, there is a problem with those interpretations, and the simple meaning of the passage is what we need to accept. What is the reason in the first place to dispute or question what the passage is telling us? What is the relevance of this question? How does it matter?

I personally considered this idea (of paradise on earth) at a time when I [mistakenly] thought that it made the event compatible with the theory of evolution. And later abandoned it when I realized that the spiritual message, and the import on the purpose of our life, was lost; and it was not what the passage was literally saying.

A second matter that I had mentioned, that was not addressed in the article either, is that all of us, including you and me, were also in جَنَّةَ. This is clear from 2:38, which is addressed to each of us, until the end of time. Just because the article did not address it does not make it "out of the scope of this discussion". The further verses I quoted, were only to establish what 2:38 already made very clear. And the idea that Adam and his wife are 'representative' of humankind would only strengthens this, and not contradict it, as it would mean that all of humankind were in جَنَّةَ, just like Adam and his wife.

[2:38] We said, go down from here all of you.  Then when you receive guidance from Me, whoever follows My guidance has nothing to fear nor will he grieve.


Peace.

Salaam,

This universe is temporary, and going to expire. The laws of the universe will cease to exist, and it will "fold like scrolls/letters" (21:104). An event hypothesized as the "big crunch" in cosmology. God then repeats the creation of a universe, just like he created this universe the first time. This is just as easy for God, as the first creation. 10:4 tells us that the new universe is to reward those who attained faith and led a righteous life. I do not see a description of it as happening "over and over".

The day We fold the sky like the folding of letters. Just like the first creation, We repeat it. This is Our promise. Indeed We will surely do it all. (21:104)

To Him is your final destiny, all of you, God's promise is the truth.  Indeed He initiates the creation then repeats it in order to reward those who have attained faith and led a righteous life justly. As for the unfaithful, awaiting them is hellish drink and a painful suffering, because of their continuous lack of faith. (10:4)

And He is the One who initiates the creation, then repeats it and this is the easiest thing for Him. And to Him belongs the most exalted example in the skies and the land. And He is The Almighty, The All Wise. (30:27)

Do they not see how God initiates creation then repeats it? Indeed this is easy for God. (29:19)

Peace.

[greater]

Salaamun 'alaikum,

It is our ego that makes us want to think that we are God's best creation, and everything centers around us. And we elevate fellow humans like us as having a special partnership with God, the Creator of the vast cosmos, in which we are an insignificant bunch.

Still God cares about us, and has counted each and every one of us and guides us to connect back with Him (19:93-95). This is God's infinite love and mercy. We have the potential to be included among God's best creatures, if we truly do what is repeated over and over in the Quran - be faithful and lead a righteous life. Or else, we are lost, and suffer the ignominy of being among God's worst creatures.

I did not understand #2, but 30:11 suggests that judgement is once, when we all return to God.

بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم

#1
Indeed the creation of the skies and the land is greater than the creation of the human being, but most people do not realize it. [40:57]

And among His signs is the creation of the skies and the land, and the creatures He has spread in them. And He has the ultimate power to summon them all when He wills. [42:29]

And to God prostrates everything in the skies and everything on the land from all the creatures and the angels, and they are never arrogant. [16:49]

We indeed created the human being in the best design.
Then We debased him to the lowest of the low.
Exempted are those who have faith and lead a righteous life, then they will have an unending reward.
[95:4-6]

Indeed, the unfaithful from amongst the People of the Scripture and those who set up partners for god will be in the fire of Gehenna eternally. They are the worst creatures.   
Indeed the faithful who lead a righteous life, they are the best creatures.   
Their reward at their Lord is Gardens of Eden with flowing streams beneath them, wherein they abide forever. God will be pleased with them and they will be pleased with Him. Such is the reward for the one who fears his Lord.
[98:6-8]

#2
God initiates the creation, then repeats it, then to Him you will all return. [30:11]

Peace.

[dwell in paradise - جَنَّةَ -]

Athman, and completely switching topics, since you asked me to check out the article on whether جَنَّةَ was on earth (this is orthogonal to the discussion on the limits on the meaning of أرْضِ).

The basic premise of the article is that ".... there is no direct evidence in the Quran for such an assertion", meaning that the Quran is silent on this question, and hence either viewpoint is equally valid. And on the basis of this premise, it evaluates reasons that can favor the idea that جَنَّةَ could have been on earth.

But based on a simple, in context, sequential reading of the verses 2:35-36, I have to conclude that جَنَّةَ (paradise) is not in الأرْضِ (the land/earth). Since in 2:35 Adam, with his wife, are invited to live in paradise. Then after the original sin, Adam, his wife, and all of us, are evicted from paradise and then sent to earth (2:36). Which means that we were not in the earth to begin with. I consider this direct evidence.

And We said to Adam, dwell in paradise -  جَنَّةَ - , you and your wife and eat from it whatever you desire, however, do not approach this tree, lest both of you become transgressors.   
However, Satan duped the two of them and caused their eviction from where they were, and We said; go down as enemies of one another, and the land/earth - الأرْضِ - shall be your abode and sustenance for awhile.
Subsequently, Adam received from his Lord words by which He accepted his repentance. Indeed, He is The Accepter of Repentance, The All Merciful.
We said, go down from here all of you.  Then when you receive guidance from Me, whoever follows My guidance has nothing to fear nor will he grieve.
[2:35-38]


A second problem is that we were also in جَنَّةَ (this is alluded to in 2:36, and reconfirmed in 2:38; also see 33:72, 7:172). If  جَنَّةَ were on earth, it would mean that we reincarnated on the earth.

A third problem is that the earth is only a temporary abode "for awhile" (إِلَى حِي). Our primary existence was in جَنَّةَ, this world is just a sojourn to make amends for the incident described in 2:36. The جَنَّةَ we return to is other wordly. The جَنَّةَ near which Muhammad was transported to was other worldly (53:15). The جَنَّةَ we came from should also be expected to be other worldly.

Peace.