Messages

181

General Discussions / Re: Original Sanctuary, Masjid al-Haram and the Qibla Change

« on: November 22, 2011, 12:46:34 AM »

BY MEMBER: Name Withheld


WHERE WAS THE OLD QIBLAH BEFORE MASJID AL-HARAAM IN MAKKAH?


The significance of Jabal al-Lawz - Member analysis

http://quransmessage.com/forum/members/email2/qiblah.htm

182

General Discussions / Re: Original Sanctuary, Masjid al-Haram and the Qibla Change

« on: November 17, 2011, 11:37:25 PM »

The writer of this post is not an English speaker and makes use of Google Translate to converse. Please appreciate the efforts afforded by this reader to communicate with fellow believers and give due allowance for any weaknesses in the language conversion.

It is the argument that the reader posits which matters most.

QM Forum Admin


CONCLUSION

The original Masjid al Haram was not in Makkah or Jerusalem but in / around Jabal al-Lawz


Gabal musa , the tur sina- in fact- is in Arabia in the old Midian, and this is the same place, where Ibrahim built the house, where prophet Ilyas he catch himself in a cave and this is the holy land, the ancient house, the forbidden place- because in fact, the saudis close all the ground there/ it's forbidden to entrance....why?

There is a rock, he is splits into two sides, and it seems, that it was rushing water from this rock (Kaaba, the meaning> swelling breasts from young girls..?! it's the very perfect meaning from this stone, because he was swelling like the breasts, from the water, what after rushed out strongly) and not only a little bit.

And there is a altar in front of this mountain (Sina) , from Moses , beside we found rocks in a line (SAFA) and MARWA (I found a translation it's means 'the place where is running the water out,ore collecting the water together ') when we look all this signs, then is clear why Allah he speaks from a blessing place with Signs. (The Manna for the Bani Israel from Allah they became also in this Valley Bacca.)

Also the Sina, the mountain by himself is very special. He is a vulcano and he looks like a pyramid and the top is very black- (black stone?) exactly like the pyramid from Giza and the same of the one-dollar-note!!!

I'm sorry I make mistake when I write in english but to give you more infos, I will attach files that you can read. it seems, that the masjid al Haram is in this place and not in mecca. interesting also, there is a word in hebraec 'meccaca” 

Files attached: Please see link:  http://quransmessage.com/forum/members/email1/makkah.htm

Furthermore:

(1)  The Quran says the qibla is Masjid al haram, the question still: is Masjid al Haram in Mekka?
(2)  We don't find the Kaaba  together with Mekka in the Quran, we find it with 'Masjid al Haram”:the Kaaba is only found together with Pilgrimage . But the Quran not says the Kaaba in Mekka.
(3)  The mount of the temple in Jerusalem in hebräic language means 'bait al haram', the ground of the temple was also a 'mustatil', the sanctuary from the Bani Israel was in Jerusalem. But the 'tur' is with 'baraka' and there, where Musa received the scripture. And Abraham left his 'Zuriat' in a valley near the 'balad  mubaraka'. I think, that is the same area.
(4)  Saudi Arabia was parted in three parts: a Syria part (capital Petra), a middle part (capital maybe Yathrib. Higra, Tayma) and the Arabia Felix with (sued-Arabia) the language were not the same , the Quran is clear the arabic from the middle (syroaramaenia), where we must search the town from Muhammads people, this is my own opinion.

183

General Discussions / Re: Original Sanctuary, Masjid al-Haram and the Qibla Change

« on: November 17, 2011, 11:00:06 PM »

BY MEMBER: Wazir1961

Conclusions:

If we see all these verses in big picture, it becomes clear that Prophet Ibrahim PBUH and Prophet Ismail PBUH built the Kabah in Makkah and declared it as a Qibla for mankind. Later on, people of the Book changed their center of devotion (Qibla) to Jerusalem.

People of Book might be pursuing Prophet SAW and his followers to accept their wishes and possibly their Qibla (2:105, 2:109, 2:120, and 2:135). Moreover, objection raised in verse 4:142 also possibly implies that the people who put forward the question essentially asking Prophet SAW to accept their Qibla as a common ground to compromise. So, Allah SWT not only formally appointed Kabah as Qibla, But, He warned them (Prophet SAW and his followers) that 'If thou after the knowledge hath reached thee, Wert to follow their (vain) desires,-then wert thou Indeed (clearly) in the wrong '(verse 2:145).

So, when Prophet SAW received revelation or even before that he 'used to' believe Makkah a center of devotion (Qibla) and not Jerusalem (which was a center of devotion for people of the Book).

So, premise that Prophet SAW and his followers were praying towards Jerusalem and changed their direction toward Makkah, seem to be untenable.


FULL ANALYSIS AVAILABLE HERE:

http://quransmessage.com/forum/members/wazir1961/qibla%20change-wazir1961.htm

QM Forum Admin

184

Women / Need for Abolishing All Discriminatory Laws Against Women

« on: November 17, 2011, 11:16:18 AM »

Thought you may find this interesting.
 
Mubashir


NEED FOR ABOLISHING ALL DISCRIMINATORY LAWS AGAINST WOMEN:
 
Is is no doubt a good news that with the passage of Women Bill, there is going to be women emancipation from the clutches of extremist Mullahs which had imposed all such anti women traditions like Karaokari, marriage with Quran to prevent inheritance and protect the Wadera system and their so-called rich blood, Wani etc. Still much is needed. The NA should also end the infamous and much exploited Hudood laws imposed by the great bluffer on Islam, Zia Ul Haq to please the Mullahs and continue in power till death. Hundreds of women are rotting in jails on unproved charges of Zina etc.
 
All women organisations, sincere and liberal leaders, media and TVs should take up this big issue to abolish all such discriminatory laws against women. We should also put an end to Talibanisation of our country which actually is not according to our DEEN of peace and progress. But the illiterate Talibans who don't know ABC of Islam are spoiling the image of our great religion by practicing extremism, deviations, terrorism, killing of innocent people through suicide bombings and blowing up girls schools, shopping malls, video shops, barber shops, Mazars and Masajid. They also cut the throats of those who oppose their barabric action in the name of Islam and stone couples to death on Zina charges not allowed in Quran except 100 lashes.
 
To end all such exploitation of Islam, all Masajid and Madressahs should be nationalised as Islam is a state religion of Pakistan and it is the duty of the State to manage all religious affairs. All religious parties, groups, Tehriks which are exploiting Islam for their selfish ends and their dictatorial rule should be banned. The religious litereature should also be under state control to end various deviations, excesses, extremism, sectarianism, exploitation of Maslak and Fiqah differences; promotion of weak and un authentic Hadiths, sayings, tales and stories not in conformity with Quran to confuse and deviate the Muslims etc. We should all save Islam from exploitation and deviations. Quranic teachings through its translation and explaining the directives of Allah along with authentic Sunnah in conformity with Quran  ( 10 : 15, 64 / 18 : 27 )should be made compulsory in all schools and Madressahs to make our students well equippped with Quranic knowledge to lead a good life of peace and progress and to avoid all sins and evils, Shirk, Bidah, un Islamic customs and practices, exploitations and misguidance by the Taghoots, Pirs, Faqirs, Aamils, vested interests, commerical Mullahs; Satanic influences etc. All sincere Aalims should come forward to promote Quranic knowledge to Ajmi Muslims to follow the right path of Allah. Thanks.
 
Syed Sadruddin Hussain,
On. Canada.       

185

Discussions / Man made Rituals and Excesses - Some people are thinking!

« on: November 17, 2011, 03:00:43 AM »

From: Mubashir


Salam

There are people who question the status quo and ask questions! Good !!

Here is an Email that landed in my inbox worth sharing:       


The ritual of Qurabani is mentioned in the Quran for those performing Hajj and Allah has even made it easy for those Hajis who can not afford Qurbani to keep fast for a total of 10 days. Please see Ayaths: 2 : 196 / 22 : 27-37.  The Hajis don't celebrate Eid or perform Eid ul Adha Namaz. In Arabia those not performing Hajj don't indulge in such mass slaughter of animals after Eid Namaz. As for Sunnath Ibrahimi, this is mentioned seperately from Hajj rituals in Ayaths: 37 : 102-108 and this took place before our Deen was completed and before Quran was bestowed on our Prophet.
 
       Please read the Quran and it is no where directed by Allah to perform such Sunnath Ibrahimi on Eid. We should accept such Sunnahs which are in conformity with the Quran ( 10 : 15, 64 / 18 : 27 / 24 : 54 ) as there are lot of weak and unauthentic Hadiths which have been fed to us by our Moulvis to perpetuate their religious domination like Pope and Bishops over us due to our ignorance of Quran and its directives. Islam is an easy religion to follow and there is no compulsion or force ( 27 : 1-2  /  2 : 256 / 22 : 77-78 ). Allah also directs us to avoid misguidance and excesses in rituals ( 4 : 171 / 5 : 77 ). In Pakistan due to mass slaughter of animals lot of wastage of meat take place. The corrupt take the lead to spend lot of money on purchase and parading the costly animals to impress others and the position of the poor people becomes awkward who borrow money to fulfil this rituals.
 
      We should all read the translation of Quran to understand Allah's directives along with authentic Hadiths in conformity with the Quran and avoid misguidance, excesses in rituals, deviations, un Islamic customs and practices, Shirk, Bidah, influences of Pirs, Faqirs, Aamils, Babas, Taghoots, Tawaiz, Jadoo, Tuna, etc.
May Allah guide us to the right path of Islam particulalry to those who give more importance to Hadiths, sayings, traditions, tales and stories than Quran. Thanks.
 
Syed Sadruddin Hussain 



From another forum:


Dear Brothers,

No body is victimizing the followers of the above schools of thought nor any disrespect is alluded to those "great" Imams and interpreters of Qur'anic thoughts and Rasul Allah's Sunnah or Islamic Shariah. I ventured to intrude in this discourse only to bring it within limits of civility and forum of sharing thought on a subject very dear to the hearts and souls of all believing (not practicing) but genuinely interested Muslims. So, lets stay civil and respectful to each viewpoint and accept whenever and whatever tends to appeal to respective grasp of issues that rankle our mind and souls.

My basic premise is that other than the prophets [and Rasul Allah (saw) in particular] - as they were specifically guided and aided by Allah (swt), all human beings are at a level ground and enjoy similar privileges and rights. By implication, I allude to my and as such, your similar right of interpretation and accord it to all other humans, as these schools of thought acclaim as their exquisite prerogative. All Imams (highly exalted, as they were and are) had this right and very wisely exercised it on all issues that cropped up in their times, in the light of their personal interpretation of the Qur'anic injunctions applied as an "assessment tool" on hearsay regarding Sunnah and Shariah. It appealed to the people at large as cogent and was largely followed by all and sundry. On many an issues, it may as well carry the same validity. However, on many others, ordinary Muslims feel very strong revulsion and do not wish to bequeathed them the prophetic status that has come to be accorded to them.

A lot is being wrongly imposed by our Clergy and Ulema and without any meaningful benefit to the people at large, such as:

(1) Institution of 'Tarawi' is being bullishly enforced on an ignorant people without ever achieving the purpose for which it was instituted, i.e., imparting the Qur'anic education to people. Even the educated ones suffer the agony of listening to Arabic Qirat and return home 'Na-murad' despite having commitment to reap the benefit of this worthy Institution! Some think and insist it is 'Swaab' to hear it in Arabic language! May be...!

(2) Every Friday Congregation, you have to visit the Masajid of 'Ajmi' Muslims and hear the 'Khutba' in Arabic, designed by the Clergy of the times of Abbasid, repeated religiously and never does it occur to the concerned Clergy the fallacy and stupidity of such indulgence. The best part is that you and me also sit out piously, listen and return home 'Na-murad', without ever affecting a rational and purposeful change.

(3) Every one of us rushes to the Masjid, hearkening to the call for Salat, "Hiya lus Salah, Hiya Lul Fallah". We all perform Salat as a ritual, without ever participating in any Consultation on Community issues - (Salah) or arriving at any decisions on any Community Welfare issues - (Fallah); suffice to say, we only indulge in worship - rubbing our foreheads on the ground.

(4) 'Imamat' in every Muslim Community including our Community Center - Masjid, should have been an elective assignment - to the best in ability of leadership and morals. Since the 'Malukiyat' took hold of the Ummah, Clergy has taken hold of this potent Podium and banished the Community therefrom. No wonder, Muslims suffer from eternal ferment and discord!!

(5) Masajid are Community Centers, where Muslims (brothers in their Way of Life - ISLAM) practice fraternity, equality and exercise their inviolable rights every day - five times, through Mutual Consultations; the most refined form of democracy West cannot care to match but the people all over the world, would love to!!! A vital pre-condition: banish the Clergy therefrom.

This, in short, is a brief glimpse of the disease of ritualism that has eaten into the vitals of the Ummah; ignorance, poverty and hapless insensitivity has caused it to lapse into a state of dereliction. A 180 million of them are being taken for a ride for over sixty years in this Mumlekat e Khuda Dad - Pakistan, by a mere band of heartless, conscious-less, characterless monsters and crooks consisting of bureaucrats, wederas, conglomerate of religious demagogues and political jugglers.

My dear Murad, more will follow. Can you ever imagine a people inspired and fired by the Panacea of ISLAM, suffering such morbid imbecility? Ponder and let go of some more of your fire-power of genuine concerns and unswerving faith. Please do not defend the indefensible; I have nothing against the 1400 years of lapses and the people responsible for it. Certainly, it wasn't ISLAM.

Fond regards: Sher Suleman

186

Discussions / Wonderful site!

« on: November 17, 2011, 12:42:02 AM »

Salaam brother Joseph,
 
May Allah's guidance be with you. Allow me to introduce myself brother. My family and myself reverted to Islam about 7 years ago. We were Christians earlier. However, we were faced with the same problem of sects and innovations in Islam as well and have had to be very careful not to stumble. I have always kept an open mind and have continued to seek the right path. I have read quite a lot about Islam and have spent time reasoning what the so called scholars have had to say, but with Allah's grace have been able to use my own common sense and stick to the truth as much as possible.
 
While surfing the net, by chance I stumbled upon your site and I must admit that what you profess is indeed True Islam - to worship Allah alone and be guided by his Quran.

[A sister in faith - Name withheld from forum]

187

Discussions / I'm a fan!

« on: November 17, 2011, 12:38:55 AM »

Salamu Aleikum

First, I want just say, that your site  is very good and very interesting. please send me all updates. I opened new a blog "Koran ist  Wahrheit". it’s in german and never like yours- mashAllah. I would like to transform articles from you in german, is this possible? I write one allready about how to study the Koran from you  and I wish to share with all the people your science, it,s so wonderful.. I will  not make this for me, I will tell all the people, that in fact ,it,s not me, who write all that – I never will arrive for it , I wish to learn the Arabic right, not like i ‘m speaking now.But there is no teacher in front of me, so I don,t have any possibility to study.

[Name withheld from forum]

188

Discussions / Your Site, My Background

« on: November 17, 2011, 12:36:16 AM »

I'm so grateful to Allah that I came across your site. I actually belong to a shia family and have been involved in all the shia practices (matam, mourning, etc) for so many years of my life. But only recently I came across some 'Quranist' website and all of a sudden I had a paradigm shift. I never thought about the other side of the 'truth' I was holding on to.

I always thought what I believed was right and I took all that for granted. But by the grace of Allah, I have started studying Quran on my own and researching things over the internet and your work has been of tremendous help in clearing many of my doubts and confusions as well as misconceptions. I used to take the Ahadith Corpus as almost equal to the Quran, and never bothered to read the Quran. But I'm so grateful to Allah for showing me the correct path and guiding me through it.
 
Your work and research is truly amazing. May Allah reward you for your efforts. I'll be looking forward to reading more of your articles.

[A sister in faith - Name withheld from forum]

189

Posts on Other Forums - The Salaat Forum / Re: Reward and Punishment

« on: November 16, 2011, 11:27:10 PM »

LINK TO THE ORIGINAL THREAD
http://www.salaatforum.com/index.php?mode=thread&id=296#p304


RESPONSE GIVEN ON THE SALAAT FORUM

by Quasim Hamdani, Chicago, Tuesday, November 15, 2011, 20:35 (11 hours, 51 minutes ago) @ Joseph Islam
I think the Judgement Day and the Laws of Recompense are two separate and distinct things.

The Judgement Day coincides with the resurrection in the Hereafter. The Hereafter is a cosmic event where the universe goes through a massive change and humans are alive and aware again. Unlike our first birth, where we came to life helpless and clueless and later died with an entire database of our thoughts and actions preserved, this new life picks up where the old life stopped. This database of our thoughts and actions determines whether we are relegated to a life of envy, resentments and frustrations or we graduate to a life of happiness, comfort, abundance and fantastic new experiences.

Like all laws, the Law of Recompense is a process. Before this law kicks in, the humans are given an opportunity to repent and start over, if the repentance is not forthcoming, then the Law of Recompense takes hold. The nature and timing of this recompense is not always known. The requital is bound by space and time while we are living. A person may also die before experiencing the earthly requital. There is an inverse relationship between the requital earned and your station in the Hereafter - the more requitals one earns the lower the station. The database of our thoughts and actions travels with us to the Hereafter, intact.

190

Discussions / Re: Thought of an Institution Based on True Scholarship for the Masses

« on: November 12, 2011, 02:37:42 AM »

Joseph,

Many scientific, technological, medical, and academic fields in general have progressed because of peer-reviewed journals.
 
I think it would be good to develop some model where established and respected Islamic seminaries like Al Azhar in Egypt and a corresponding one of the Shias and also open minded and progressive although still with traditional knowledge Islamic seminary like Imam Hamza Yusuf's Zaytuna College can be in control for final editing but that articles are submitted by all including non-Muslims.
 
I think you might be a little uncomfortable about this model where the ulama have the majority control.
 
But I think it is a step in the right direction for the following reasons:
 
1.  The Muslim ulema community and the Muslim masses in general will not accept findings from non recognized sources and especially from non Muslim sources.
 
2. At least some protection from any potential agenda from both traditional scholars who don't want ahadeeth questioned and from any potential agenda from people who ideologically want to discard ahadeeth altogether without a scholarly and nuanced approach. This can be made through a sort of written criteria to show that only evidenced based and verifiable research will be published regardless of what conclusions on particular ahadeeth are generated from such findings.
 
3. We know from the Qur'an that there are non Muslims who simply have an agenda to undermine Islam. This is mentioned explicitly in the Qur'an that some of those who disbelieve in the Qur'an want to eliminate the light of Islam, so it is critical for only believing and practicing (I consider you as practicing even if you don't accept ahadeeth because you still pray, do hajj, etc) Muslims to have the final editing control to determine which submissions are accepted and then to frame the articles in the journal in the appropriate way. Of course, much of the text of the article will be from the writer of the article or else non Muslims scholar will simply not participate.
 
4. I think there should be a good percentage although not majority from people like you, Aisha Musa, etc. who are critical of the hadeeth process altogether. Again the Muslim masses will not accept anything from those who are not recognized as traditional scholars.
 
5. I think the advisory board but not controlling part should have hadeeth experts whether they are Muslim or non Muslim as long as they are well published with scholarly credentials.
 
6.  I think there should be some transparency in the voting of the controlling and advisory board so the Muslim masses can see if the journal is agenda driven or driven to advance knowledge of the Prophet(s) true teachings.
 
7.  I think there should be some yearly convention (like professional societies) so scholars can present their findings and people can network to exchange knowledge. Again I think Muslim believers should be in control of the presentations selected at the convention. 

Peace.

191

Discussions / Thought of an Institution Based on True Scholarship for the Masses

« on: November 12, 2011, 02:31:46 AM »

Peace to you Joe,

I just wanted to suggest an idea that would probably take 1 year to carry out, but that can be an impetus for progress. There are some big scholars out there and institutions who are much more open minded than others. I was thinking of the institution that generated the Amman Declaration for instance.
 
I think a list should be compiled of them and then they should be contacted with a 1 page letter requesting them that:
 
1.  The population of the world is becoming ever more competent in their reasoning and analytic abilities.
 
2.  Since the foundation of Islam is belief on a perfect all-knowing God, any statement that is apparently or clearly in violation of historical, scientific, or moral facts will strike a serious blow in the faith of many Muslim readers.
 
3. Therefore, we ask these selected individuals and institutions based on their own statements and on their proven track record of initiating a more systematic and scientific analysis of the whole transmission of ahadeeth.
 
4. And for all weaknesses of this transmission process to be published in clearly and explicitly so that believers of today and of future generations can realize that certain hadeeth that conflict with established facts or with their conscience are probably not traced to the Prophet after all.
 
5. Thereby allowing them to not lose their faith in the perfect Qur'an if they are conditioned to believe that they must accept these ahadeeth with conflict with their intellects or their morals.   
 
6. I think a good appendix for evidence can be statements from Jeffrey Lang's book "Losing my faith" where he says that almost all the doubts in the religion of the new generation is from those who have hard time grappling with certain ahadeeth.
 
7. I think the signatories of this letter need to be people who don't trash the ahadeeth unscholarly like some of the followers of Rashid Khalifa do, But people like Aisha Musa and those other people who are scholarly...perhaps from you as well.
 
8. I think we need to phrase something that makes clear we are not trying to eliminate ahadeeth altogether but just to produce a scholarly and authoritative and ongoing published initiative that is updated to incorporate study methods that have been established in the last several centuries that both cast doubt on some ahadeeth (a la Schact, etc.) and that support ahadeeth (a la Motski, Azami,etc).
 
9. To show that using ahadeeth is still important so we can follow the Prophet but that we must not lose sight of the limitations of using ahadeeth transmitted through several generations and through centuries of political and sectarian and theological strife to infer the true set of inspiration and guidance from the Prophet.

10.  I think the goal of educating Muslims to truly place secondary Islamic sources on a truly secondary level is more achievable and legitimate than to effectively eliminate this source altogether.  This may be at odds with your view of ahadeeth as altogether useless and worthless but I think without you changing your personal view which is more radical than views like mine or Motski's, we can still move forward in educating the lay public about the limitations of the ahadeeth.