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[LINK TO THE ORIGINAL THREAD]

LINK TO THE ORIGINAL THREAD
http://www.salaatforum.com/index.php?mode=thread&id=178#p184

by Joseph Islam, Tuesday, November 01, 2011, 22:25 (6 days ago) @ jawaid ahmed


To Jawaid.

Peace.

With regards 5:106, you say:

"Since I do not believe that Salat is prayer, but means to remain within the bounds of the Laws of Allah, then it has something to do with the will that is being asked to be witnessed. When death approaches us, we must have a will so that our inheritance can be distributed accordingly"

Respectfully, what you believe is entirely your prerogative. I completely respect that. However, you have provided no cogent explanation for what the prayer in this verse signifies. 'Then it has something to do with the will ..."or "but the two witnesses understanding the conditions of the will and agreeing to give testimony on this" is respectfully not a persuasive argument in light of the Quranic context.

Furthermore, where is the Arabic 'fa-asabatkum musibatu l-mawti' (then befalls you calamity of death) in your translation? You include it in your transliteration but completely miss this out in your translation. The prayer is clearly linked with death and is only taking place after death. Therefore, a crucial part of the Arabic has been missed.

If you have a better explanation then the one you have offered, I would be delighted to take academic note and learn.

Salam.

[LINK TO THE ORIGINAL THREAD]

LINK TO THE ORIGINAL THREAD
http://www.salaatforum.com/index.php?mode=thread&id=169#p182

by Joseph Islam, UK, Tuesday, November 01, 2011, 20:50 (6 days ago) @ jawaid ahmed, uk


To Jawaid:

You quote:

If Salat is not following the Quran, then it is certainly not doing rituals five times a day either! No 'bird'I know performs rituals as a means of 'Salat'to Allah. If they are engaged in following what they have been programmed to do then it is up to us to find out what is our best programming. This is by following the teachings, the principles, the values etc of the Quran, which means when I carry them out, I am performing my Salat. Salat is established collectively by implementing a Quranic social order; society then behaves in a harmonious manner, beneficial to all.

First of all there is no 'as they fly in columns' in the Quran in verse 24:41. There is also nothing to suggest in your translation that you have included this as an insertion.

With respect, you have missed the point of the verse.

All the verse informs us is the fact that creatures of God have a form of prayer and glorification. In another verse, God expands that it is clear that humans have not been given the capacity to understand their methods of glorification.

017.044
'The seven heavens and the earth, and all beings therein, declare His glory: there is not a thing but celebrates His praise; And yet you understand not how they declare His glory! Verily He is Oft-Forbear, Most Forgiving!'

You say:

'Nowhere does the Quran describe the rituals of namaaz that is performed five times a day by the majority, name only, Muslims. If this is what Allah intended for us, then He would have put the instructions in at least one clear verse, leaving no doubt about His intentions'

What the Quran does not provide is pedantic 'form' and 'utterance' (what to say in your prayers). The Quran has no intention to prescribe this. All various other aspects of prayer have been provided by the Quran. (direction, need for wudu, allusion of times etc).


The details of ablution (4:43; 5:6)
A need for a direction - Qiblah, specific for the 'believers' (Mu'mins) (2.143-44)
Garments (7:31)
Allusion of times: (4:103; 11:114; 17:78; 24:58; 30:18; 2:238: 20:58)
That prayers must be observed on time (4:103)
Followers of the previous scripture to observe their Qiblah and the Believers (Mu'mins) their own Qiblah (2:145)
Prayer involves prostration (Sujood - 4:102; 48:29)
There is more than one prayer (Prayer in plural used - Salawat) (2:238)
There is a general form to prayer (2:238-39).
Standing position (3:39; 4:102)
Bowing down and prostrating (4:102; 22:26; 38:24; 48:29)
Form is not required during times of emergencies, fear, and unusual circumstances (2:239)
A mention of a call to prayer and congregation prayer (62:9)
A warning not to abandon prayer as was done by people before (19:58-59) but to establish prayer (Numerous references)
The purpose of prayer - To remember God alone (6:162; 20:14)
Prayer involves utterance (4:43)
The purpose to protect from sins (29:45)
What to do in danger and the shortening of prayer (4:101)
Garments and mention of a Masjid, or a place of prayer (7:31)
The tone of prayer (17:110)
There is a leader of prayer (4:102)


The Quran has no intentions to define rakats, where you should tie your hands, what you should say in prayer etc. The purpose is communion with God. Communion is a personal spiritual experience and exercise. You misunderstand lack of form and utterance in the Quran as an absence of prayer altogether, This is untenable in light of the scripture.

You mention the narratives with respect to Shoaib (pbuh). You quote a rendering of a verse 11:87 as , and I quote:


11:87 They said, "O Shoaib! (We had thought that your religion was only a matter between you and your Lord.) Does your Salaat Command that we should forsake the worship that our fathers practiced? Or, that we leave off doing what we like to do with our economy? Indeed, you want us to think that you are the only clement, and the rightly guided man among us."

First what Arabic word are you translating as 'economy'? The word used by the Quran is 'amwalina' which refers to their wealth (property, assets etc). The use of 'economy' implies resources at a regional or society level.

Secondly, the argument is not against 'prayer'. The argument is against praying to what their forefathers used to worship. (natrula ma ya'badu abauna).

It seems you may have difficulty with finding the details for the 'traditional prayers' in terms of form and utterance in the Quran and therefore assert that there is no 'prayer' in the conventional sense altogether. Why do you not consider the possibility that there is no intention by the Quran to give you a pedantic form or content (utterance)? There is also no directive in the Quran for you to pray in Arabic, or assign specific rakats (albeit it may make logistical sense in a congregation). However, this does not mean that there is no prayer.

[LINK TO THE ORIGINAL THREAD]

LINK TO THE ORIGINAL THREAD
http://www.salaatforum.com/index.php?mode=thread&id=150#p185

by Joseph Islam, Wednesday, November 02, 2011, 06:46 (5 days ago) @ Shabbir Ahmed


Dr. Shabbir.

On the strenghth [sic] of 22:36, you say:

"Only camels may be slaughtered at Hajj, and only in Makkah for the pilgrims to host one another (22:36). NAHR strictly refers to the sacrifice of a camel"

Where do you get this interpretation from 22:36?

The Arabic word used by the Quran is 'budna'. 'bud'na' is plural of 'badanah' and comes from 'badan' which means body without arms legs or a cow, goat, bull, camel or any animals of sacrifice.

So to say only camels can be slaughtered on the strength of 22:36 is untenable in my opinion and from an Arabic perspective. It means all sacrificial animals.

Salaam.

[DOES THE QURAN REALLY SANCTION BEATING OF WIVES?]

DOES THE QURAN REALLY SANCTION BEATING OF WIVES?

http://quransmessage.com/articles/does%20the%20quran%20sanction%20wife%20beating%20FM3.htm

A DEEPER LOOK AT THE WORD 'DHARABA' (TO BEAT) IN CONTEXT OF WIVES

http://quransmessage.com/articles/a%20deeper%20look%20at%20the%20word%20dharaba%20FM3.htm

http://quransmessage.com/articles/sex%20with%20slave%20girls%20FM3.htm

http://quransmessage.com/articles/hijaab%20FM3.htm

http://quransmessage.com/articles/ayesha%20age%20FM3.htm

Dear All,

Salamun Alaikum.

The Quransmessage.com forum (QM Forum) is now live for you to make use of, God willing.

This forum is primarily dedicated to a discussion of the Quran with a view to better understand the guidance of our Creator. However, please feel free to discuss pertinent questions which you may deem relevant to aid your understanding of Islam and to enhance the understanding of others.

Please feel free to join and start contributing. Please also invite others that you feel may benefit.

Regards,

Joseph 

http://quransmessage.com/articles/hadith%20FM2.htm

http://quransmessage.com/articles/aggressive%20(mis)translations%20of%20the%20quran%20to%20enslave%20women%20FM3.htm