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Messages - Joseph Islam

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1816
Women / Re: Hijaab
« on: November 09, 2011, 10:05:58 PM »
Thank you Saba,

Yes, I do feel that most translators do capture the word 'juyub' in this context to mean 'chest' etc correctly.

The core meaning of the word 'Jayubunna' has always been used to signify an opening of a shirt or sleeve or a pocket or the bosom, heart or even a place or entrance for a land or country. 

The JAYUB or its derivative is not understood to mean the whole body (bar hands and face).

The best and easiest way to check this understanding is to cross reference it with the Quran first and to ascertain how the Quran uses similar terms elsewhere. For example, we note that the same root has been used in the following verse to signify:

27:12 God asks Moses to put his hand in his chest / bosom (Arabic: Jaybika) which is inside his garment after which it will come out white as a sign for Pharoah.

See also 28:32.

As you can see the root JYB has a specific rendering and a specific area of focus and does not signify the whole body (bar face and hands). Rather, it signifies the area of the chest / breast.  This understanding is also attested by notable classical Arabic lexicons.

I hope that helps  :)

Joseph.

1817
General Discussions / Re: The Compilation of the Quran
« on: November 09, 2011, 09:44:17 PM »
Peace brother Irfan,

So nice to see you on the forum.

[And thank you Truth seeker for providing the link to the article and sharing your thoughtful views]

Brother Irfan, I think you do provide a plausible argument with a view to reconcile the piecemeal revelation with other verses where the impression is of a (as you imply) a 'one time download'.

I certainly do understand the pronoun 'hu' in anzalna(hu) of 97:1 as a reference to the Quran in 2:185. There is also support for this in my opinion in verse 44:2 where the pronoun 'hu' in 'anzalnahu' is tied to to the 'kitab' in 44:1.

I would have also considered the possibility of a possible meaning of 'kitab' linked to the umm ul-kitab of 13:39 or 43:2-4 if it was not for the 'Quran' being mentioned directly in 2:185 which is clearly said to be revealed in the month of Ramadan. (I understand Umm-ul-kitab as the master source which is within God's presence. It is the original source and foundation from which all scriptures and revelations from God emanate including the Quran)

I incline to understand 'Quran' in 2:185 not always as a reference to a 'complete' book. The 'Quran' inherently means a reading or recitation, a particular collection or compilation.

Throughout the reading of the scripture, I find revelations being referred to as the 'Quran' even though it is clear that revelation is not complete. Even in verses such as 25:32, the incomplete Quran is still being referred to as a 'Quran' (a reading).

025.032
'And those who disbelieve say: Why is the Quran not revealed to him all at once? ..."

This could be better understood as 'Why is the 'reading / or the Prophet's inspiration" not revealed to him at once.

In verse 73:4 we note:

073:004
"...and arrange (Arabic: Wa-rattili) the Quran in its arrangement (Arabic: Tartilan)"

So albeit from the above verse that it is clear that the revelation is not complete, the 'reading' is still referred to as the 'Quran'.

I find further support for this understanding in other verses such as 7:204 in the context of 7:203 where the Quran is mentioned but where it is clear from 7:203 that it still may be incomplete.

Therefore in 2:185, I take the mention of the 'Quran' as any reading of the Quran and not necessarily the 'whole' Quran. So any revelation or the initiation of a revelation in the month of Ramadan would satisfy my understanding and reconcile it with verses which indicate a piecemeal revelation.

Just my opinion and as always, thank you for sharing yours.

Your brother,
Joseph.


1818
Posts on Other Forums - The Salaat Forum / Re: Salaat = Follow the Quran
« on: November 09, 2011, 08:38:24 PM »

LINK TO THE ORIGINAL THREAD
http://www.salaatforum.com/index.php?mode=thread&id=169#p268

by Joseph Islam  , On God's Earth, Wednesday, November 09, 2011, 04:47 (53 minutes ago) @ jawaid ahmed
edited by Joseph Islam, Wednesday, November 09, 2011, 05:41

Jawaid,

Please spare me the poorly disguised insults masqueraded in isolated quotes or commentary which is befitting of school playgound banter. Throughout this discussion you have not once provided me any clear answers to my academic contentions. Rather, you have either skirted the issue by virtue of a lack of response or attempted to provide arguments from renditions I do not find in the Arabic.

You say:
"[God does not fight in person, or send His armies or angels physically. 22:39]"

008.009
"When ye sought help of your Lord and He answered you (saying): I will help you with a thousand of the angels, rank on rank"

008:012
"When thy Lord inspired the angels, (saying): I am with you. So make those who believe stand firm. I will throw fear into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Then smite the necks and smite of them each finger"


I concluded my discussion on this thread with you due to lack of cogency in your arguments and method in my last post. I have no intention to insult you nor do I have the time to waste to entertain yours.

"lakum dinukum waliya din" (to you your religion and for me (is) my religion)

Peace.

--
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act'
George Orwell

http://www.quransmessage.com
Copyright © 2010 Quransmessage.com

1819
Posts on Other Forums - Questions and Answers / Mindset of the Clergy
« on: November 09, 2011, 06:32:48 AM »
RESPONSE GIVEN BY JOSEPH ISLAM
[Please contact Joseph Islam for further details of the original thread]


In my humble opinion, an accurate description of the status quo brother [Name Removed] :-)

Given the wide berth that these 'secondary sources' provide in terms of materials oft with partisan biases, unsavoury narratives, partial allegiances - all reflective of the sectarian milieu through which these sources found synthesis, no wonder the debates are endless.

Where these 'books' become the criterion to judge, an almost alternative scripture results where concepts within them carry even more weight than those present in the Book of God. The Mighty Book, alas, left 'effectively' shackled and 'mahjur' in their diverted minds.

Anyone well versed with these secondary sources can defend almost any ideology, or theological viewpoint that they want with a little mastery of selection and a dab of eloquence in delivery.

Simple verses of the Quran almost challenge the whole corpus in succinct words. But will 'they' take heed?

[QXP]
68:36 What is the matter with you? How do you judge (the right and wrong and their logical consequences)?
68:37 Or do you have a scripture wherein you learn -
68:38 That you shall have through it whatever you choose?

1820
Posts on Other Forums - Questions and Answers / Code 19
« on: November 09, 2011, 06:30:30 AM »
RESPONSE GIVEN BY JOSEPH ISLAM
[Please contact Joseph Islam for further details of the original thread]


...From my humble understanding (and a little off the fence given my last post on this subject) the Quran gives the purpose of the number 19 in the Quran

(1) As in indication of the appointment of 'malaika' to be keepers of the fire
(2) The number present as a trial for those who are bent upon denying the truth (Kaffir).

There is no third informing that it represents a code of any particular kind or instructs believers to look for it.

In my humble view and reading of the verse, I believe that Point (2) is further extrapolated and describes those that make the number a criterion to judge one's true faith (some do). They believe that:

(i) 'This admonition should grant certainty to those who received the Scripture before while the believers shall increase in faith' [QXP]

(ii) 'The believers and those who have been given the Scripture before shall harbour no doubt to this declaration' [QXP]

But the main pivotal question, which for me goes to the crux of the issue is, who is asking the question 'madha arada l-lahu bihadha mathalan"? (What does God mean by this parable?") [QXP]

Most true believers believe in the veracity of the Quran with all their hearts. They don't ask this question. Nor have 1400 years of Muslims really asked this question (before its discovery) to obtain a definitive answer.

The Quran tells you clearly who asks this question "

'alladhina fi qulubihim maradun wal-kafiruna' (those in whose hearts is a disease and the disbelievers)

QXP captures the essence of the condition:

'The hypocrites and deniers' [QXP]

Hand on heart (no pun intended), before anyone can embark on ratifying this code, would they not have to ask the question "What does God mean by this parable?" QXP?

Really my brothers and sisters, would this question not need to be asked? Is this not remotely troubling?

I have kept to the verses for now as this is not the place for a detailed expose of all the arguments. A great debate has already been captured in 'Running Like Zebras' and I am sure on other forums which most seasoned frequenters will be familiar with.

However, I hope only to impart my own difficulty when I read these verses in the overall context of the Quran.

Just my humble thoughts. No 'GiL' (Arabic *) intended with anyone for or against this theory. Personally, I find it difficult to support in light of the verses.

* see 7:43 for meaning and usage of GiL.

1821
RESPONSE GIVEN BY JOSEPH ISLAM
[Please contact Joseph Islam for further details of the original thread]


Much is made of Quranic revelations with respect to what time and for what purpose they were revealed (Occasions / reasons - Asbab (plural of sabab) of revelation (nazul)).

In my discussions, nothing demonstrates more the fluid nature of 'Asbab-ul-Nazul' than the controversy that surrounded what the very first surah revealed to the Prophet was.

A typical response given is - 'The very first verse of the Quran? - Surely its 96:1. Everyone knows that!'

Maybe - But what is often disconcerting as first realisation, especially those uninitiated with early Muslim sources is that, quite interestingly, the earliest historians didn't seem to be quite sure.

If this is the case with the very first surah of the Quran, then what about all these elaborate narratives that capture and necessitate the study of 'Asbab-ul-Nazul'? - Exactly! - It is a question worth asking and pondering.

THE CONTROVERSY

There is much scholarship work on this and I don't wish to unnecessary lengthen the post. I refer those with an appetite to dig deeper to an interesting piece by G.H.A Juynboll and the 'Studies on the Origins and Uses of Islamic Hadith' (Published by Variorium Pages 167-171 - XI Early Islamic Society as reflected in its use of Isnads). Quite a detailed survey is also done by Noldeke/Schwally, Geschichte des Qorans, I, pages 78-84

In a nutshell, verse 96:1 'iqra bismi rabbika allladhi khalaq' was not the only contender amongst the earliest historians as the first revelation to the Prophet. There was another - "ya-ayyuha -l-muddaththir qum fa-andhir..." (74-1...). Muslim scholars seem to have stated rather than demonstrated that 96:1 was the first. Many have accepted narratives which support this on the authority of early historians such as Ibn Ishaq (d. circa 760s CE) that flesh out the stories. Later historians such as Tabari (d.923 CE) simply relied on earlier historians and as such questionable fluidity of information became cemented as fact as names of these great giants became more important than a critical analysis of their works.

At best, this was salvation history that the earliest historians were attempting to recover marred with serious political, social and personal influences.

Also, it appears that the main focus for the earliest scholars seemed to be based on scripture and an understanding of the 'living tradition' that coexisted with it, rather than 'al-qassas' (stories).

Abu Hanifa, a well respected jurist amongst Muslims who was born in Kufa (699 CE and d.767 CE) is well known not to have left much in the way of Hadith both in terms of traditions or 'Qassas' (Stories). However, even in his time a parallel desire to capture 'stories' seemed to be garnering popular support.

Ignaz Goldziher, 1850-1921 CE, highly recognised in Western scholarship as somewhat as the father of Hadith criticism (and Matn analysis) in the West captures a very telling narrative in his Muslims Studies Volume II (Muhammedanische Studien) on page 193

'Abu Yusuf, pupil of Abu Hanifa, was greatly interested in the Maghaz, tafsir and ayyam al Arab [1], so much so that he missed some of his master's lectures. One day after he had been absent for several days his teacher asked him: 'Now tell me, who was Goliath's standard bearer?' Abu Yusuf was ready with his answer. 'You are the imam,' he said, 'and if you do not stop teasing me, I shall ask you in front of all the people which battle was fought earlier, the Battle of Badr or that of Uhud?. You will be unable to answer; yet this is the most elementary question in history.' [2]'

[1] - Abu l-Mahasin, I, p:508,7
[2] - Al Damiri, I, p.176 from Tarikh Baghdad

Ask a well read Muslim child the same question today and the answer will roll off the tongue with ease as 'accepted historical fact'. However, this narrative clearly shows the detachment that religious theologians had with historical questions. Even at the time of Abu Hanifa, popular stories (hearsay) were not commonly known. This is not surprising if you look at the following timeline:

Time of Prophet's death d.632 CE
Ibn Ishaq writing his 'Sira' for CALIPH Mansur (Abbassid Caliphate Ruler who died around c.775) on his order. The Sira put together around 760-763 CE
Abu Hanifa - Baghdad (d.c.767 CE)
Abu Yusuf (d.798)

Therefore, it appears that even religious theologians such as Abu Hanifa increasingly turned away from 'popular stories' and literature dealing with such and seem to have relegated them as useless entertainment.

Today, what is even more disconcerting are some of the incredulous popular examples found in the 'Sahih' with regards Asbab-ul-Nuzul.

As an example, verse 11:5 beautifully relates God's immense power of knowledge by capturing a condition of a people.

"See how they fold up their chests that they may hide their thoughts from Him! Even when they cover themselves with their garments, He knows what they conceal and what they reveal. He is Knower of the innermost thoughts of the hearts" [QXP]

The verse remains self explanatory and even more so if read in context with its surrounding verse. No explanation or purpose for its revelation is really necessary

However, the reason for the revelation as recorded in canonised Hadith literature is as follows. (Reader discretion advised).

Volume 6, Book 60, Number 203:
Narrated Muhammad bin 'Abbas bin Ja'far:

That he heard Ibn 'Abbas reciting: "No doubt! They fold up their breasts." (11.5) and asked him about its explanation. He said, "Some people used to hide themselves while answering the call of nature in an open space lest they be exposed to the sky, and also when they had sexual relation with their wives in an open space lest they be exposed to the sky, so the above revelation was sent down regarding them."

Volume 6, Book 60, Number 204:
Narrated Muhammad bin Abbas bin Ja'far:

Ibn Abbas recited. "No doubt! They fold up their breasts." I said, "O Abu Abbas! What is meant by "They fold up their breasts?" He said, "A man used to feel shy on having sexual relation with his wife or on answering the call of nature (in an open space) so this Verse was revealed:-- "No doubt! They fold up their breasts."

So much for the sabab-ul-nazul for this particular Ayat. Even without critical enquiry, what level of confidence can one truly place on other narratives of similar ilk?

1822
RESPONSE GIVEN BY JOSEPH ISLAM
[Please contact Joseph Islam for further details of the original thread]



Peace to you all.

As we all know, the majority of Muslims today regretfully interpret the Quran through the lens of the Islamic Secondary Sources rather than studying the Quran from within its own context. There is no doubt, strong adherence to the traditions as collected by men centuries removed from the time of the Prophet's ministry but attributed to the Prophet of God. Many traditions are blindly followed without question.

With regards Prophet Jesus (pbuh) and the Children of Israel, we read in the Quran a succinct narrative which outlines Jesus's ministry to the Children of Israel.

003:050
"And (I come) confirming that which is between the hands (Arabic: bayna yadayya) of the Torah, and so that I make lawful for you some of that which was forbidden to you. I come to you with a sign from your Lord, so keep your duty to God and obey me"

The above verse's reference to lifting certain prohibitions may be a reference to prior commandments, or those traditions that were self imposed by the Children of Israel and not necessarily decreed by God.

Despite the nature and context of the prohibition, from the Biblical narrative it seems clear that at the time of Prophet Jesus's (pbuh) ministry, the Jews had undoubtedly added to their practices and made their practices increasingly difficult by adhering to the traditions of their forefathers.

This is no different from the situation that Muslim's find themselves in today. A very revealing dialogue is captured in the Biblical sources between Jesus and the Pharisees.

Most (if not all) on this board will be well versed with the Biblical Pharisees who were not only a school of thought but invariably a powerful political and social movement that also existed at the time of Prophet Jesus's (pbuh) ministry.

THE GOSPEL OF MARK
The 'Earliest' Synoptic Gospel (Based on consensus)

MARK 7 Verses 1-9
"The Pharisees and some of the teachers of the law who had come from Jerusalem gathered around Jesus and saw some of his disciples eating food with hands that were "unclean," that is, unwashed. (The Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they give their hands a ceremonial washing, holding to the tradition of the elders). When they come from the marketplace they do not eat unless they wash. And they observe many other traditions, such as the washing of cups, pitchers and kettles"

So the Pharisees and teachers of the law asked Jesus, "Why don't your disciples live according to the tradition of the elders instead of eating their food with 'unclean' hands?"
He replied, "Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written:

"THESE PEOPLE HONOUR ME WITH THEIR LIPS, BUT THEIR HEARTS ARE FAR FROM ME. THEY WORSHIP / REVERE (Greek: sebomai) ME IN VAIN; THEIR TEACHING ARE BUT RULES TAUGHT BY MEN"

YOU HAVE LET GO OF THE COMMANDS OF GOD AND ARE HOLDING ON TO THE TRADITIONS OF MEN"

And he said to them: "YOU HAVE A FINE WAY OF SETTING ASIDE THE COMMANDS OF GOD IN ORDER TO OBSERVE YOUR OWN TRADITIONS!"

[BOLD EMPHASIS MINE for highlighting relevant text. Note also that the Greek text 'Sebomai' that is often translated as 'worship', possibly appealing to a Christian bias, more properly means 'to revere'. A study of the Bible shows shades of meanings to many common Greek words which are usually translated as worship. For example, the Greek 'Proskuneo' gives a stronger meaning of worship as it means to kneel or prostrate and an act of profound reverence. This is not the word used here. See example such as John 4:23 '“ Happy to stand corrected by a Biblical academic / scholar]

No doubt this powerful dialogue captured by the Gospel writers will resonate with many Muslims today that find themselves in exactly the same predicament.

It appears through our experiences of history, little ever really changes. True teachings of God are at best infiltrated and at worst abandoned in preference for the traditions of men.

Many Muslim preachers and clergy today operate no differently to the Pharisees during the ministry of Prophet Jesus. (pbuh) Traditions regrettably often take priority over the commandments of God given to us by scripture.

Sects, Madhabs, schools of thought - our history has repeatedly shown us, nothing really ever changes. Those familiar with Biblical and ancient history with regards the writings of historian Flavius Josephus (d. circa 100 CE) will no doubt be aware of the 'four schools of thought' that the Jews were also divided into in the 1st century CE.

1823
Posts on Other Forums - Questions and Answers / Gentle Speech is Best
« on: November 09, 2011, 06:17:31 AM »
RESPONSE GIVEN BY JOSEPH ISLAM
[Please contact Joseph Islam for further details of the original thread]



I know at times some posts can prompt one to be curt in their response. Some opinions and questions can be frustrating no doubt. However, most on this forum (if not all) strive to understand the wisdom from the Quran and we all pray to live by the teachings of the Quran to the best of our endeavours God willing.

I recall a narrative in 20:44 where God advises Prophet Moses. Despite Pharaoh's corrputed soul, despite his despicable savagery, brutal and heinous crimes, despite the fact that he would never repent nor would he ever accept the truth, God STILL asked Moses:

020:044
'But speak to him with gentle speech / nicely (Arabic: Qawlan Layyinan) , perhaps he may take heed of the reminder or fear'

Those who are familiar with Arabic will know the word 'layyinan' from its root means to become soft, smooth, plain, delicate, tender, flexible, malleable and mild.

Even the greatest of tyrants deserved to be spoken with gentle speech when delivering the message of truth. Surely there are none that we meet in our daily lives or on this forum that would compare with Pharaoh.

016.125
"Invite (all) to the Way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious: for thy Lord knows best, who have strayed from His Path, and who receive guidance"

017:053
"And say to My servants (that) they speak that which is best; surely Satan sows dissensions among them; surely the Satan is an open enemy to man"

The Quran's wisdom is clear for us to read and ponder. We should speak with politeness, with utmost kindness and invite all using the best standards of human speech.

May God help me to learn and understand this wisdom and all those that sincerely seek the path to truth.

1824
RESPONSE GIVEN BY JOSEPH ISLAM
[Please contact Joseph Islam for further details of the original thread]


I will try to summarise this in the best way I can:

The earliest source of the Prophet's history is by a professional storyteller / historian by the name of Ibn Ishaq who provides much of the biographical information on the Prophet. Ibn Ishaq was born in Madinah (c.704 CE) and wrote his biography (Sirat-ul Rasul) at the order of Caliph Mansur around 760-63 CE (approx. 130 years removed from the death of the Prophet).

Ibn Ishaq's work does not survive. What we have is his work coming to us via various editors such as Ibn Hisham (833 CE) which is one of the most popular recensions used as a source by both Muslim and Oriental scholarship. Ibn Hisham himself receives Ibn Ishaq's work through another intermediary by the name of Al-Bakkai.

Transmission:

Ibn Ishaq (d.c767 CE) - Al Bakkai - Ibn Hisham (d.833 CE)

A very interesting quote in Ibn Hisham's note is worth noting:

"I am omitting things which ibn Ishaq recorded in this book which are disgraceful to discuss and matters which would distress certain people" Ibn Hisham's Introduction

It is also interesting / significant to note that the early historian Ibn Ishaq receives much animosity in his own home town Madinah including animosity from Imam Malik himself who calls Ibn Ishaq a 'Liar'.

Ibn Ihaq's work is transmitted through many other students. Scholar J.Feuck mentions 15. I recall an Islamic scholar mentioning Abbot to have added three more.

Another important recension is found through Salama b.al-Fadl whose extracts can be found in the works of Al-Tabari (d.923 CE). Al-Tabari (838 CE-923 CE) relies on early historians such as Ibn Ishaq (and many others) through intermediary transmitters (such as Salama b.al-Fadl) to source his information. Of course, al-Tabari also makes use of many other sources as well. His colossal work entitled 'Tarikh al-Rasul wa al-Muluk (History of the Prophets and Kings) has been translated in English and consists of 39 volumes plus an index which can be found in specialist libraries (Worth consulting and studying).

A very interesting (and seemingly honest) excerpt is noted in his introduction of the 'Tarikh al-Rasul wa al-Muluk':

"Let him who examines this book of mine know that I have relied, as regards everything I mention therein which I stipulate to be described by me, solely upon what has been transmitted to me by way of reports which I cite therein and traditions which I ascribe to their narrators, to the exclusion of what may be apprehended by rational argument or deduced by the human mind, except in very few cases. This is because knowledge of the reports of men of the past and of contemporaneous views of men of the present do not reach the one who has not witnessed them nor lived in their times except through the accounts of reporters and the transmission of transmitters, to the exclusion of rational deduction and mental inference. Hence, if I mention in this book a report about some men of the past, which the reader of listener finds objectionable or worthy of censure because he can see no aspect of truth nor any factual substance therein, let him know that this is not to be attributed to us but to those who transmitted it to us and we have merely passed this on as it has been passed on to us"

Another recension of Ibn Ishaq's work is found through Ibn Al-Athir via Yunus bin-Bukayr. I understand that a copy of part of his recension ('Usdu'l Ghaba') exists in the Qarawiyin mosque in Fez which I have yet to find suitable sources / scholarship sources to access for my own study.

Ibn Ishaq was succeeded by another well known historian by the name of Al Waqidi (748 CE-822 CE) who like Ibn Ishaq exhibits possible Shia leans which is evidenced through a study of his works, narrative, collection style and his interpretation. There is much discussion in scholarly circles with regards Al-Waqidi's work and it is often asserted by some scholars that it contains possible plagiarism from Ibn Ishaq's work but with embellishments.

Having studied these sources in considerable depth, my own study concurs partially with this view. However I do feel that Al-Waqidi's work is somewhat shaped by his own image of the Prophet.

Both early historians have received criticisms of their works by their own contemporaries and by scholars throughout history to even the present day.

A good place to start a study in this area would be to access the Phd study of Dr. Rizwi Faizer.
Ibn Ishaq and Al-Waqidi Revisited: A Case Study of Muhammad and the Jews in Biographical Literature

The Phd thesis can be found here.
http://digitool.library.mcgill.ca/R/?func=dbin-jump-full&object_id=28738&local_base=GEN01-MCG02

You can note the treatment of some of Ibn Ishaq's narratives such as the infamous slaughter of the Banu Qurayza by another well known scholar Dr. W.N. Arafat.

New Light on the Story of Banu Qurayza and the Jews of Medina

A copy of this article can be found here:
http://www.haqq.com.au/~salam/misc/qurayza.html

Al Waqidi's secretary (Ibn Saad) is the source of the infamous Satanic Verses (Isnad: Al Waqidi from Yunus Ibn Muhammad Ibn Fazla al Zafari from father who said from Kasir ibn Zayd from Al Mutallib ibn Abdullah ibn Hantab).

Al Waqidi's Kitab al Maghazi has survived and was a crucial source regarding the prophet which also influenced Al-Tabari's work. It no doubt also shaped Ibn Saad's (d.845 CE) Kitab al-Tabaqat.

Point to note:

The earliest historians for the Prophet's biography such as Ibn Ishaq and others such as Al Waqidi (d.822 CE), often relied on folklore and various traditions from a plethora of traditionalists (at times indiscriminate) at times citing their sources and at others remaining economical with their source of information. Popular translations of this work exist such as that of Islamic scholar Guillaume (Oxford University Press) - The Life of Muhammad, a translation of Ibn Ishaq's Sira.

There are also non-Muslim sources worth considering which form a small body of literature and comprises Greek and Syriac writings dating from the time of early Muslim conquests which takes ones study to within the a time period of decades of the death of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)

It is the Armenian chronicler Sebeos, Bishop of the Bagratunis (writing approximately 660s CE - approximately 30 years after the death of the Prophet) who gives us the earliest narrative accounts of the Prophet's ministry in any language today.

I hope this helps :-)

1825
Posts on Other Forums - Questions and Answers / Who Forbade Hadith?
« on: November 09, 2011, 06:10:35 AM »
RESPONSES GIVEN BY JOSEPH ISLAM
[Please contact Joseph Islam for further details of the original thread]



Peace to you all.

Surely the question with regards secondary sources (such as ahadith) is one of 'authority' and not 'authenticity' which seems to have kept the Muslim learned unnecessarily busy and sifting through tomes of various opinions for over a millennia. The Quran seem to give absolutely no 'authority' to any other source apart from itself.

"These are the verses of God that We recite to you with truth. Then in what 'Hadith' (statement / narrative) after God and His 'Ayat' (verses) will they believe?" (45:6)

It seems that the question of 'authenticity' of secondary sources has been a mute point from the point of view of the Quran but unnecessarily laboured by many traditionalists.

The response given on the Day of Judgment is very significant. There seems to be no other source apart from the Quran being mentioned or as giving knowledge, explanation or guidance to the believers. There seems to be no mention of Hadith, Sunnah or any other kind of secondary source in this verse being insinuated or mentioned expressly or implicitly.

007.052
"For We had certainly sent to them a Book based on knowledge, which We explained in detail (Arabic: fasalnahu), a guide and a mercy to all who believe"

It doesn't say we sent a book, prophetic sayings, or a practice of a certain community for their guidance.

No doubt, there might be core essential truths in certain sayings, practices and pearls of wisdom, but no 'authority' seems to have been given as part of God's guidance which seems to be clear from 7:52.


______________________



Peace to you all.

The Quran itself testifies that it was being written down at the time of the Prophet by noble scribes who must have been in companionship with the Prophet.

80:13-16
In Scrolls Dignified, Exalted, Purified, (written) BY THE HANDS OF SCRIBES (Arabic: bi'aydi safara), Honorable and virtuous.

For example, the Arabic expression 'Safara-l-kitaba' - He wrote the book, or writing. The Arabic word Bi'aydi - by the hands / in the hands etc

Numerous Ahadith reports stand in clear tension with clear verses of the Quran. The Question for Muslims is, do they really put their trust in the most contemporaneous source to the Prophet (i.e the Quran), or are they truly content to rely on narratives which were not fully canonised until centuries removed from the prophet.

______________________


52:3 and highlighting the word 'Raqq' is so crucial indeed!

As you and many readers on this forum will no doubt already know, the word 'Raqq' from its root has the inherent meaning of something thin or of little thickness as compared to its breadth and length. Something thin, fine, flimsy, delicate. This most definitely refers to a well refined parchment or animal skin especially prepared for writing! For example the Arabic phrase, "raqqu kalamuhu" (His speech was or became tender, soft, sweet, graceful or elegant) carries that element of refinement in the word 'raqqu' from the same root.

I don't see bones, stones or anything of the sort in the word 'Raqq' in Arabic. Only as you say 'Fine parchment' which is such an apt translation.

Thanks so much for sharing.


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Just to add to my previous post for completeness, that though the word 'safara' (plural of safir) means a scribe or a writer, many grammarian authorities have also noted it as a reference applied to the angels who register actions (such as in lexicon authorities such as the 'Mohkam' and 'Qamus').

However, if we note the context of the verse, especially the previous verses 80.11 which refers to something being presented as a reminder / advisory (tadhikratun) and the next verse 80.12, informing one 'so let him pay heed who wills', the pretext is likely a reference to the Quran.

It is in this context and in the very next verses (83.13-16) that dignified scrolls, exalted, purified - (written) by the hands of scribes who are honourable and virtuous is mentioned.

Happy to stand humbly corrected if presented with an alternative, more persuasive view :-)



1826
Posts on Other Forums - Questions and Answers / Are Imam's Infallible?
« on: November 09, 2011, 06:02:19 AM »
RESPONSE GIVEN BY JOSEPH ISLAM
[Please contact Joseph Islam for further details of the original thread]


Peace all.

We can also take this matter straight to the Divine source. The Quran is absolutely clear that there are good leaders (21:72-73; 32.23-24 - Note Arabic word: Immatun) and there are BAD leaders (Susceptibility with regards inflated egos as brother [Name Removed] has suggested no doubt plays a very important part)

With regards bad leadership:

Pharaoh's men in the Quran are described as "Imams" (leaders) and confirmed that have led their people to the fire

028.041
'And we made them (but) leaders (Arabic: Imamatun) inviting to the Fire; and on the Day of Judgment no help shall they find'

Also, on the Day of judgment, people will be summoned with their Leaders (Righteous and Unrighteous, no distinction given)

017.071-72
'One day We shall call together all human beings with their (respective) Imams (Arabic: bi-imamihim): those who are given their record in their right hand will read it (with pleasure), and they will not be dealt with unjustly in the least. But those who were blind in this world, will be blind in the hereafter and most astray from the Path.'

Those that mislead (such as Imams) will carry an extra burden...

016:025
"That they may bear their own burdens entirely on the day of resurrection and also of the burdens of those whom they lead astray without knowledge; now surely evil is what they bear"

Note that one cannot take away another person's responsibility and each of us are ultimately responsible for our own burdens (6:164). However, it is clear in 16:25 that misleading others is an indictment on our own responsibility and for that one inevitably accrues some share of the crimes of those that they misled.

For example, a crazy warmonger imam cannot just simply sit back and claim no responsibility for the impressionable minds he may have led astray to cause atrocities with his vile despicable teachings. He will inevitably bear the burden a breach of that responsibility and that crime. At the same time however, the impressionable mind will ALSO bear the burden of his / her own responsibility and their own share of the crime.

God's justice is perfect.

1827
Posts on Other Forums - The Salaat Forum / Re: Salaat = Follow the Quran
« on: November 09, 2011, 05:34:49 AM »

LINK TO THE ORIGINAL THREAD
http://www.salaatforum.com/index.php?mode=thread&id=169#p263

by Joseph Islam  , On God's Earth, Tuesday, November 08, 2011, 14:01 (31 minutes ago) @ jawaid ahmed

Jawaid,

If you want to know what my views on prayer are, you are free to visit my site and the following section.

http://quransmessage.com/articles/prayer%20FM3.htm

I have discussed my understanding comprehensively with my best understanding of the Arabic.

In response to your pointed question "what you believe Allah does for you", I believe He takes account of my prayer, my needs, and my best interests. I thank him unreservedly for this. Now let me contextualise for you how He takes account of it in my opinion.

God is NOT dependant on time nor does He exist 'in time' that He Himself has created. We exist in time. God transcends space, time and His creation. He is not dependant on the laws He himself has created. A lot of difficulties in our understandings are resolved if we remove God from our linear perception of time and space which He is not subject to. Many verses in the Quran indicate that He is in the past, present and future simultaneously and governs affairs from outside His universal creation.

When I pray, He took account of that prayer before the Universe was created and before He set his master-plan in action for me, for you and the Universe. I adore Him and I wish to worship Him as much as I can based on volition.

I also believe wholeheartedly in His word, the Quran and I find clear instructions which guide me on the best way to worship Him in terms of monotheistic prayer.

020.025-35
(Moses) said: "O my Lord! expand me my breast; Ease my task for me and remove the impediment from my speech, So they may understand what I say: And give me a Minister from my family, Aaron, my brother; Add to my strength through him, And make him share my task, That we may celebrate Thy praise without stint, And remember Thee without stint: For Thou art He that (ever) regardeth us."

020.036
(God) said: "Granted is thy prayer, O Moses!"


I have nothing more to say.

Regards,
Joseph.

--
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act'
George Orwell

http://www.quransmessage.com
Copyright © 2010 Quransmessage.com

1828
Discussions / Re: Previous Scriptures and the Qur'an
« on: November 09, 2011, 02:01:53 AM »
Dear Mubashir,

Salamun Alaikum.

I agree with your sentiment and I too do not find support from the Quran that the true 'Injeel' was (or is) a lost book.

I said:
"The concept of answerability and judgement is well attested in the Bible (Both OT and NT)"

I quoted Ezekiel 44:12 with respect to the above without any particular lean on whether this was with respect to the punishment meted on earth (Cause and effect) or the Hereafter. I did not intend to share it with a view to support an afterlife.

I partially concur with your sentiments with regards the concept of the after life within the Jewish Tanakh. Albeit, that the Tanakh's focus seems to be on how to live life within God's ordained religion, this does not imply that it is devoid of a concept of the afterlife despite the dearth of direct verses.

Yes indeed, the Tanakh does not focus on the after-life whereas the NT and in particular, the Quran provides ample verses that do. However, the concept of an afterlife has been discussed throughout antiquity by the Jewish sages.
 
The same questions of God's plan, purpose are still as fundamental for Judaism as it is for Christianity or Islam (Term Islam - as commonly understood).

Personally, I do find support for a concept of afterlife in the Jewish Tanakh. We even note a question posed by Prophet Job.

Job 14:14 (KJV)
"If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come"

In Daniel, I find clear mention of an afterlife.

Daniel 12:2 (KJV)
"And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting * life , and some to shame [and] everlasting * contempt"

* The Hebrew word used is 'owlam' which means everlasting, a long duration, perpetual, eternity.

The concept of an afterlife also seems to be something familiar to Prophet David:

Psalm 17:15 (KJV)
"As for me, I will behold thy face in righteousness: I shall be satisfied, when I awake, with thy likeness"

I am truly of the opinion that a dearth of direct narratives in the OT dealing with an afterlife should not be equated with an absence of the concept altogether. Indeed, the focus of the OT is on the living and how to live life in accordance with God's laws. But there is a purpose which I feel even the OT recognises.

I hope the above verses and clarification helps.

Joseph.

1829
Peace Mubashir / Truth Seeker.

A very healthy discussion.

Mubashir you say:

""...SALAWAAT is not reading something for a certain number of times but practically doing something i.e. commending and supporting the mission of the Messenger [a.s.]  by whatever means we can..."

There seems to be an inherent dilemma either / or scenario in the argument that you may be presenting. (i.e. if something is not A then it is B).

Salawaat has different shades of meanings given the context as we have already discussed. Yes indeed, salawaat is not reading something an X number of times, but the Quran never prescribes that nor does it describe it as that. That is the non-Quranic formula of many modern day Muslims.

I also feel two words are being confused here. 'Yusalli' and 'salam' are two different words. Truth Seeker, with respect, I think you may also be confusing the two and seeing them both as synonymous.

The root of 'Yasalluna' can mean prayer, to magnify, to honour, to bless, to commend. I find its primary usage in the present or for those who are alive such as in 33:56 and 33:41-43. 'Salam' as used in the phrase 'Salamun ala...' (37:109; 37:79; 37:120; 37:130 and 37:181) means peace. These are two separate words.

Leaving aside what present Muslims do or say today, we need to better understand what the Quran teaches us.

We note that an acknowledgment of 'peace' (salam) has been captured by the Quran in later posterity:

037:108-111
"And We left for him among generations (to come) in later times: "Peace be upon Abraham!" (Arabic: Salamun ala Ibraheem) Thus indeed do We reward those who do right. Indeed, he was one of Our believing Servants"

Even God uses the present tense to confer such peace on messengers whose souls may have left their earthly abode.

037:181           
"And Peace be upon the messengers!" (Arabic: Salamun ala-l mursaleen)

The central question is why the Quran acknowledges 'salam' on those that have passed away in the present tense.

WHY DOES THE CONFERMENT OF PEACE ON DECEASED MESSENGERS OCCUR IN THE PRESENT TENSE?

Those whose souls have departed (tawaffu) may be considered 'dead' by humans, they are not 'dead' for God.  Souls depart to God, much like when we are asleep (19:42; 6:60) and in death move to a state of 'Barzakh' (23:100) where the human concept of time is lost. Nothing is dead for God who has the ability to resurrect any of His creation that He wills. Even the animals will return back to God (6:38).

We are taught in the case of the righteous that we should not consider them as 'dead'.

002:154
"And do not speak of those who are slain in God's way as dead; nay, (they are) alive, but you do not perceive (Arabic: 'walakin la tash'urun)"

Note the term 'walakin la tash'urun' (but you do not perceive). We simply don't have that perception of their state which is proven by the above verse. Very little information has been given with regards the state of 'Barzakh'. Regardless of the years that are spent in this state, for the deceased this state would appear to pass very quickly. (See related article [1] below).

Albeit, this concept has been explained in terms of 'martyrs', there is no reason to conclude that this does not apply to all souls.

However, this is not to be confused with other narratives of the Quran which informs us that the 'dead cannot hear' (30:52) or those narratives that imply that the record of one's soul is complete upon death. These narratives merely serve to separate the living from those that have deceased.

Furthermore, God is NOT dependant on time nor does He exist 'in time' that He Himself has created. We exist in time. God transcends space, time and His creation. He is not dependant on the laws He himself has created. A lot of difficulties in our understandings are resolved if we remove God from our linear perception of time and space which He is not subject to. Many verses in the Quran indicate that He is in the past, present and future simultaneously and governs affairs from outside His universal creation.

When we confer 'peace' on past personalities, we do it with an intention. We acknowledge that an ever-living God receives our salutations of their state of harmony and with conferred respect. For God, nothing is dead.

I also don't find this form of salutation necessarily prescribed. The Quran simply captures a form of salutation that was left to later generations. We can emulate them if we so choose. We can confer other forms of salutations that we wish, such as 'Blessed / In peace are the messengers of God'. This is a choice.

I personally would incline to follow the method of salutations that the Quran 'captures'. Please note that is different from it being 'prescribed' on believers.

I hope that helps.

Joseph.


Related Articles:

[1] PUNISHMENT OF THE GRAVE (AZAB-E-QABR)
http://quransmessage.com/articles/grave%20punishment%20FM3.htm

[2] PBUH (PEACE BE UPON HIM)
http://quransmessage.com/articles/pbuh%20FM3.htm

1830
Posts on Other Forums - The Salaat Forum / Re: Salaat = Follow the Quran
« on: November 09, 2011, 12:34:47 AM »
LINK TO THE ORIGINAL THREAD
http://www.salaatforum.com/index.php?mode=thread&id=169#p258

by Joseph Islam  , On God's Earth, Tuesday, November 08, 2011, 06:30 (3 hours, 3 minutes ago) @ jawaid ahmed


You said:

"Instead, a means of 'communication' with Allah is set up five times a day, or at any time, when He has no need of this, neither do we since He has already completed His Revelation, His Words to man, in the Quran. All the other 'I feel better for praying' or 'it gives me spirituality' etc etc etc, is pagan, sufi, ascetic nonsense that dominates the world's religions, bringing no benefit to society"

With all due respect Jawaid, we need to stop viewing the Quranic salaat through the lens of the collective ritualised prayers of the present day Muslims which you so emphatically refer to as 'pooja or namaz'. I feel that you continue to understand the Quranic 'salaat' and judge it through the lens of present day Muslims. This conversation has long moved on and is getting unnecessarily repetitive.

How you can assert that "you are not making your life better by establishing Salat", I simply cannot comprehend. Personally, it has transformed my life and purpose. This is something only I know along with my Creator and those around me. If prayer is performed properly and not in a ritualised manner, it can nurture the soul and the collective psyche of the Ummah. Prayer has to have a meaning and purpose backed up with actions (and not empty, incomprehensible words) and these facets need to be understood. Prayer is also not about the selfish 'ana' (I, me) or what good is it doing for me from ones own limited understanding. No one can understand the mind of the Creator and how He manifests His mercy. We can only ask of Him.

002:186
"When My servants ask thee concerning Me, I am indeed close (to them): I listen to the prayer of every suppliant when he calleth on Me..."

040.060
"And your Lord says: "Call on Me; I will answer your (Prayer): but those who are too arrogant to serve Me will surely find themselves in Hell - in humiliation!""

Respectfully and please do trust me, though it has been the source of much deliberation, nothing in your argument addresses my central queries for me to persuasively accept your understanding. It simply does not represent 'bayyin' (clear proof / evidence). Nor have you once addressed my pointed questions with regards your English renditions of the Quranic verses from which you draw your conclusions.

As I have noted you to quote G Parwez in our discussions when you have deemed it necessary, I prefer the understanding of a site that claims to represent the understanding of G. Parwez, rather than your own interpretation of it.

"We have seen that according to its root meaning, Salaat is a system and not a ritual. Prayer (performed five times a day) is only a component of Salaat. Within this system, prayer is a powerful and effective means of achieving the Quranic goals mentioned earlier. Outside the system, however, it becomes a soulless ritual repeated solely for getting rewards in the hereafter"

"Praying five times a day is only one part of Salaat. When we finish our prayers in the Masjid, we are not done with Salaat. It is not something to do and finish. It involves every aspect of life, keeping it within the guidelines of the Divine Code twenty-four hours a day. And this has to be done within a system under a central authority according to the Qur'an"

http://www.parvez-video.com/insight/islam/prayers/index.asp


Today's prayer has become ritualised. This is something I have always accepted. But to say prayer does not exist is a gross misinterpretation of the Quran in my opinion.

You and I will simply have to agree to disagree.

Peace.

--
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act'
George Orwell

http://www.quransmessage.com
Copyright © 2010 Quransmessage.com
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