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Messages - Joseph Islam

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Posts on Other Forums - The Salaat Forum / Salaat = Follow the Quran
« on: November 08, 2011, 04:15:18 AM »

by Joseph Islam, UK, Tuesday, November 01, 2011, 20:50 (6 days ago) @ jawaid ahmed, uk

To Jawaid:

You quote:

If Salat is not following the Quran, then it is certainly not doing rituals five times a day either! No 'bird'I know performs rituals as a means of 'Salat'to Allah. If they are engaged in following what they have been programmed to do then it is up to us to find out what is our best programming. This is by following the teachings, the principles, the values etc of the Quran, which means when I carry them out, I am performing my Salat. Salat is established collectively by implementing a Quranic social order; society then behaves in a harmonious manner, beneficial to all.

First of all there is no 'as they fly in columns' in the Quran in verse 24:41. There is also nothing to suggest in your translation that you have included this as an insertion.

With respect, you have missed the point of the verse.

All the verse informs us is the fact that creatures of God have a form of prayer and glorification. In another verse, God expands that it is clear that humans have not been given the capacity to understand their methods of glorification.

'The seven heavens and the earth, and all beings therein, declare His glory: there is not a thing but celebrates His praise; And yet you understand not how they declare His glory! Verily He is Oft-Forbear, Most Forgiving!'

You say:

'Nowhere does the Quran describe the rituals of namaaz that is performed five times a day by the majority, name only, Muslims. If this is what Allah intended for us, then He would have put the instructions in at least one clear verse, leaving no doubt about His intentions'

What the Quran does not provide is pedantic 'form' and 'utterance' (what to say in your prayers). The Quran has no intention to prescribe this. All various other aspects of prayer have been provided by the Quran. (direction, need for wudu, allusion of times etc).

The details of ablution (4:43; 5:6)
A need for a direction - Qiblah, specific for the 'believers' (Mu'mins) (2.143-44)
Garments (7:31)
Allusion of times: (4:103; 11:114; 17:78; 24:58; 30:18; 2:238: 20:58)
That prayers must be observed on time (4:103)
Followers of the previous scripture to observe their Qiblah and the Believers (Mu'mins) their own Qiblah (2:145)
Prayer involves prostration (Sujood - 4:102; 48:29)
There is more than one prayer (Prayer in plural used - Salawat) (2:238)
There is a general form to prayer (2:238-39).
Standing position (3:39; 4:102)
Bowing down and prostrating (4:102; 22:26; 38:24; 48:29)
Form is not required during times of emergencies, fear, and unusual circumstances (2:239)
A mention of a call to prayer and congregation prayer (62:9)
A warning not to abandon prayer as was done by people before (19:58-59) but to establish prayer (Numerous references)
The purpose of prayer - To remember God alone (6:162; 20:14)
Prayer involves utterance (4:43)
The purpose to protect from sins (29:45)
What to do in danger and the shortening of prayer (4:101)
Garments and mention of a Masjid, or a place of prayer (7:31)
The tone of prayer (17:110)
There is a leader of prayer (4:102)

The Quran has no intentions to define rakats, where you should tie your hands, what you should say in prayer etc. The purpose is communion with God. Communion is a personal spiritual experience and exercise. You misunderstand lack of form and utterance in the Quran as an absence of prayer altogether, This is untenable in light of the scripture.

You mention the narratives with respect to Shoaib (pbuh). You quote a rendering of a verse 11:87 as , and I quote:

11:87 They said, "O Shoaib! (We had thought that your religion was only a matter between you and your Lord.) Does your Salaat Command that we should forsake the worship that our fathers practiced? Or, that we leave off doing what we like to do with our economy? Indeed, you want us to think that you are the only clement, and the rightly guided man among us."

First what Arabic word are you translating as 'economy'? The word used by the Quran is 'amwalina' which refers to their wealth (property, assets etc). The use of 'economy' implies resources at a regional or society level.

Secondly, the argument is not against 'prayer'. The argument is against praying to what their forefathers used to worship. (natrula ma ya'badu abauna).

It seems you may have difficulty with finding the details for the 'traditional prayers' in terms of form and utterance in the Quran and therefore assert that there is no 'prayer' in the conventional sense altogether. Why do you not consider the possibility that there is no intention by the Quran to give you a pedantic form or content (utterance)? There is also no directive in the Quran for you to pray in Arabic, or assign specific rakats (albeit it may make logistical sense in a congregation). However, this does not mean that there is no prayer.

Posts on Other Forums - The Salaat Forum / Re: Qurbani
« on: November 08, 2011, 04:12:43 AM »


by Joseph Islam  , On God's Earth, Friday, November 04, 2011, 17:55 (3 days ago) @ Shabbir Ahmed

Dr Shabbir.

I raised a point which I think is important for clarification. 'Al-budna' is not an exclusive term for a camel nor is 'nahr' which is a statement you have made.

You are also entitiled to keep your opinion. However, it may be of interest to other readers who wish to learn the true remit of the words.

Also, your statement "Al-budna is one of the 700 words for camel."

Please enlighten me if you will of the 700 words.


'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act'
George Orwell
Copyright © 2010

Posts on Other Forums - The Salaat Forum / Re: Qurbani
« on: November 08, 2011, 04:09:20 AM »


by Joseph Islam  , On God's Earth, Friday, November 04, 2011, 09:15 (3 days ago) @ Saba Sheikh
edited by Joseph Islam, Friday, November 04, 2011, 09:47

Salamun Alaikum.

Saba is correct, my main contention was with 22:36 and the use of 'bud'na' which is not a reference to camels 'exclusively'. Saba is also correct that the Quran makes use of 'jimaltun' and 'naqatu' for camels. This is not the word used in 22:36.

Furthermore, the word 'Nahr' which is incidentally not found in 22:36 also does not refer to slaaughtering 'camels' exclusively. With respect, to assert as Dr. Shabbir has done that "NAHR strictly refers to the sacrifice of a camel" is an incorrect statement. Readers can research this for themselves and speak with Arabic speaking scholars if they deem fit.

The word 'Nahr' means to slaughter / sacrifice a camel generally but includes other beasts such as cows and bulls as well. The Taj ul-Urus actually confirms that these beasts were brought as offerings to Makkah.

The verb 'Nahara' is only found once in the Quran and that is in verse 108.2.


'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act'
George Orwell
Copyright © 2010

Posts on Other Forums - The Salaat Forum / Qurbani
« on: November 08, 2011, 04:05:56 AM »


by Joseph Islam, Wednesday, November 02, 2011, 06:46 (5 days ago) @ Shabbir Ahmed

Dr. Shabbir.

On the strenghth [sic] of 22:36, you say:

"Only camels may be slaughtered at Hajj, and only in Makkah for the pilgrims to host one another (22:36). NAHR strictly refers to the sacrifice of a camel"

Where do you get this interpretation from 22:36?

The Arabic word used by the Quran is 'budna'. 'bud'na' is plural of 'badanah' and comes from 'badan' which means body without arms legs or a cow, goat, bull, camel or any animals of sacrifice.

So to say only camels can be slaughtered on the strength of 22:36 is untenable in my opinion and from an Arabic perspective. It means all sacrificial animals.


Islamic Duties / Re: Seeking a means (wasila)
« on: November 08, 2011, 03:59:59 AM »
Salamun Alaikum brother

What I find interesting is that the one 'method' of Wasilah that is negated by the Quran is the very 'wasilah' that is argued for by use of Islamic Secondary Sources.

Please find below a short piece on this topic.

Unfortunately, many Muslims take the following verse in the Quran as a support for the concept that 'Wasilah' through intermediary individuals is permissible. This verse is then used as a conduit into Islamic secondary sources which cast this concept into stone.
"O ye who believe! Do your duty to God, seek the means of approach (Arabic: wasilata) to Him, and strive with might and main in his cause: that you may prosper"

What is conveniently omitted or overlooked is that the same word 'Wasilatan' is used once more in another part of the Quran where the concept of 'Wasilah' as commonly understood and very meaning that some extract from 5:35 is completely negated.
"Say: "Call on those - besides Him - whom you fancy: they have neither the power to remove your troubles from you nor to change them. Those whom they call upon do desire (for themselves) means of access (Arabic: wasilata) to their Lord, even those who are nearest: they hope for His Mercy and fear His Wrath: for the Wrath of thy Lord is something to take heed of"
Reconciling the Quranic verses, it is clear that the 'Wasilah' in 5:35 is only a reference to a means by which one come close to a thing (which is correct in its true definition and Quranic form). In this case the entity is God and any manner of possible positive ways that brings one closer to Him in worship is alluded to.  A 'Wasilah' (a means of access to a thing) is also not restricted to humans and certainly not in the manner which is negated by 17:56-7 which is sadly the way it is most commonly understood by many Muslims.
As an example, one may make use of the beautiful Psalms of David to chant and listen as their means / avenue (Arabic: Wasilah) to bring them spiritually closer to the worship of God. Others may choose the study of the Quran, the TaNaKh (Jewish Old Testament) and the New Testament as their 'Wasilah' as it makes them understand purpose and God's messages.
'Wasilah' could also constitute in depth prayer, giving charity, attempting to do the right thing in acts of righteousness or remembering the Lord by his beautiful names. In effect, it can constitute any number of things which bring one close to Him in remembrance and worship.
What is sadly ironic is that a simple Quranic verse is used out of context and is itself used as a 'Wasilah' into Islamic secondary sources to establish a doctrine which is unsupportable by the Quran.

[1] LANE. E.W, Edward Lanes Lexicon, Williams and Norgate 1863; Librairie du Liban Beirut-Lebanon 1968, Volume 8, Supplement, Page 3053
Highlights marked in red on the lexicon excerpt are my own insertions. They have no bearing on the original text other than they emphasise relevance to the topic at hand. These are merely illustrations and have solely been utilised for educational and explanatory purposes

Women / Does the Quran Really Sanction the Beating of Wives?
« on: November 08, 2011, 02:43:36 AM »

Women / Hijaab
« on: November 08, 2011, 02:39:46 AM »

Discussions / Welcome!
« on: November 07, 2011, 06:34:37 AM »
Dear All,

Salamun Alaikum.

The forum (QM Forum) is now live for you to make use of, God willing.

This forum is primarily dedicated to a discussion of the Quran with a view to better understand the guidance of our Creator. However, please feel free to discuss pertinent questions which you may deem relevant to aid your understanding of Islam and to enhance the understanding of others.

Please feel free to join and start contributing. Please also invite others that you feel may benefit.


Joseph  :)

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