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Messages - Nura

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General Discussions / Re: Witness
« on: September 28, 2016, 06:09:21 PM »
Salam all

These hadiths with one initial witness are called ' Ahad hadiths' . Not all hadiths are Ahad but majority are. The Quran calls for two witnesses for financial dealings but four for fornication. If we say at least two witnesses should be needed to take any ahadith seriously, then another person with a preference for four witnesses, can also quote the verse for fornication requiring four witnesses and say that hadiths that do not have four witnesses cannot be taken seriously. All these verses have a context and they should be applied within that context. Taking rulings out of context and applying them elsewhere may cause mayhem.

Quran says that in what ahadith other than the Quran will we believe in? The Quran goes out on a limb and declares mumins to believe only in Quran and follow only it's laws. The only reason for not following hadith is one of authority. The Quran gives no religious authority to ahadith, this is what matters.

Something can be the truth even if there is no witness present there. That is why the Quran speaks about being careful and not commiting sins and lying etc, when we are alone. Because there is always one witness present, God. God witnesses everything, even when we think there is no other human witness. A hadith can be true, even if it has zero witness or one, but the issue remains that ahadiths are not religiously binding.

General Discussions / Re: Virgin Birth & ALLAH's laws...
« on: September 26, 2016, 07:16:28 PM »
Salam All

they have made the angels, who are servants of the Most Merciful, females. Did they witness their creation? Their testimony will be recorded, and they will be questioned.

We can see that in 49:13, God corrects an assumption about the angels' gender. From this we learn that God corrects our understanding whenever we make assumptions about creations of which we do not have any idea. God did not make any such claims or corrections about Mary when the people called her a female. God did not correct the Biblical understanding that Mary was a female. If u r not genetically a female, u r not a female, no matter what u look like outside.

We are asked did we witness the creation of angels that we assume they are females? God is clearly admonishing us for making such assumptions about things of which we are not witnesses. Our speech will be recorded and we will be asked to provide proof for our beliefs.

I have not witnessed Mary's creation so I cannot say Mary was an intersex with any certainty, and I cannot provide proofs for such a belief. Mary was an intersex remains an assumption with no explicit proof from scripture or any other credible source. I do not want to make that assumption about Mary. It remains a possibility, that Mary was an intersex person, but this possibility is without any warrant from scripture or other credible sources. No one can surely say that Mary was an intersex person with explicit proof. But Mary was a female is also a possibility, one with justification from scripture and other sources outside scripture.

For believing Mary was a female, I can quote the Quran and Bible to God as an explanation for my beliefs and also the fact that the scripture made no explicit indication that Mary was an intersex. The verses quoted as implicit proofs for believing that Mary was intersex, have alternate interpretations/ explanations. Both Brother Joseph and I have provided alternative interpretation/ explanations for those verses. Some people have found our explanations unacceptable. That is their prerogative. The Quran did not make any attempts to correct the Biblical understanding about Mary's gender and pregnancy. But made many declarations that Mary was a female:

1) God makes use of the word for female to refer to Mary in both Bible and Quran i.e God calls Mary a female
2) Mary's mother calls her a female in Quran and Bible
3) Mary herself calls her a female in Quran and Bible

People in sources outside scripture also called Mary a female:

1)Mary's contemporary knew her as a female
2)Past and present believers of the Bible and Quran call her a female

Thus, I would also call her a female simply because I can provide justifications for such a belief rather than assumptions that have no concrete basis neither from scripture nor from other credible sources.

General Discussions / Re: Virgin Birth & ALLAH's laws...
« on: September 26, 2016, 05:39:32 PM »
Salam Wakas

I am aware of the absence of gender neutral words in Arabic. And thank u for clarifying that u don't consider the Quran calling Mary female as enough evidence for her being female. But for me the Bible and Quran calling her a female is the evidence that she was a female.

For your information, I have read up on intersex and the possibility of a pregnancy. I never claimed u were denying a miracle pregnancy, I understood that your version of Mary's miracle pregnancy constitutes pregnancy of an intersex.

But, biologically speaking intersex people rarely have fully grown and functional male or female reproductive organs and moreover the possibility of a self-impregnation is more rare hence I understand why u r claiming this to be the miracle rather than a normal female being impregnated without a male. Maybe, this is easy for u to accept for me both is easy to accept. But, since the Bible and Quran both call Mary a female and God knows whether a person is only a female from outside or also on the genetic level, I will believe God and believe that she was a full female.

You believe, God calls Mary a female in both the Bible and the Quran because she looked like a female but genetically she was an intersex. But, I believe she was a female on genetic level as well because she was called a female. I am aware that I cannot prove this without genetic testing and neither can u prove ur point without genetic testing . So, we have reached an impasse.

My reason for believing Mary was a female is the usage of the words that stand for female for Mary in both the Bible and Quran. I will say to God, if I am asked to defend my beliefs, that I believed Mary to be both genetically and phenotypically a female because the Quran and Bible called her a female. Not something that was neither implied in scripture nor there was any explicit proof from scripture or outside scripture to assume that she was not a female.

With respect, u r claiming confirmation bias on my part, why should I highlight them for you? The burden of proof is on u to provide that I committed confirmation bias. I simply asked u why u did'nt believe Mary was a female eventhough the Quran uses the Arabic words for a female to describe her, I do not see why u got offended! I did apologise for misunderstanding u and I meant it. I did ask u for an explanation, because I truly wanted to understand your point, not to dismiss it without warrant!

General Discussions / Re: Virgin Birth & ALLAH's laws...
« on: September 25, 2016, 07:23:49 PM »
Sorry Wakas , I misunderstood your previous post to mean you have not read all the verses regarding Mary, I reread ur post and got that u meant u haven't read/scrutinised all the occurences of the Arabic phrase u mentioned. Extremely sorry.  :) It was wrong of me to say that u haven't studied all the verses related to Mary. But can u please answer my other qustions directed to you.

General Discussions / Re: Virgin Birth & ALLAH's laws...
« on: September 25, 2016, 06:54:14 PM »
Salam Wakas

Can u comment about why the Quran uses the Arabic words for women to refer to Mary? The Quran mentions effeminate men. Men with no desire for women. If Mary was not a female, God could have used other words to describe her. The Quran is aware of different genders and the fluidity of sexuality and multiplicity of gender. Why words that stand for female? Why do u not want to believe the Quran especially when it says she was a woman? U have provided no explicit evidence from the Quran and from ur own admission u have not read all the verses regarding Mary! Why prefer a theory more? U seem to suggest the Quran is ambiguous about Mary's gender. This is not at all true. There is no ambiguity and the Quran speaks with certainty when it uses the Arabic words for women. If the Quran and Bible was silent about Mary's gender, I would have considered this theory of yours but the Quran  and Bible both are not ambiguous nor are they silent regarding this matter!

I would appreciate it if you did not make personal comments about our intentions and intelligence by quoting verses from the Quran and insinuating that we have an agenda. With respect we have given explicit proofs about our beliefs and u have provided zero explicit evidence. Moreover, u admitted u have not studied all the relevant verses. Don't you think you should study all of them before making such a claim about a well established Quranic and Biblical belief?

General Discussions / Re: Confusion on the translation of 2:249
« on: September 25, 2016, 07:17:17 AM »


Then when set out Talut with the forces he said, "Indeed, Allah will test you with a river. So whoever drinks from it then he is not from me, and whoever (does) not taste it then indeed, he (is) from me except whoever takes (in the) hollow (of) his hand." Then they drank from it except a few of them. Then when he crossed it, he and those who believed with him, they said, "No strength for us today against Jalut and his troops." Said those who were certain that they (would) meet Allah, "How many of a company small overcame a company large by (the) permission (of) Allah. And Allah (is) with the patient ones."

I am of the opinion that it was the people who did not drink, the minority who was with Talut, said those words. And when they saw that majority drank and so the size of their army became significantly smaller compared to Jalut's troops, they( the minority people) took that opportunity to strengthen their faith in God and remind each other that strength and victory is not in numbers, but victory belongs to those who have God on their side.

General Discussions / Re: Virgin Birth & ALLAH's laws...
« on: September 25, 2016, 06:59:38 AM »
Salam Wakas and everyone


Waothkur fee alkitabi maryama ithi intabathat min ahliha makanan

Please see the Arabic Quran, here 'intabahat' is translated as 'she withdrew'. In the Arabic lanquage a girl is called unta/inta, the roots for the words are same . Please check a lexicon for further clarification/verification.

Faittakhathat min doonihim hijaban faarsalna ilayha roohana fatamaththala laha basharan sawiyyan

Here 'Faittakhathat' is translated as 'then she took'. The Arabic word for girl here is 'fattah'. Please check lexicon.

These are commonly known Arabic words for a female and can be easily verified. Both have been used to refer to Mary. I would much rather take the Quran's word for Mary's gender, clearly female, rather than a theory with no explicit proof from the Quran.The Quran uses Arabic words that mean a female/woman when it talks about Mary.

I would like to draw attention to surah 19 where the birth of Jesus is not the only miracle birth being discussed. The birth of Yahya to Zachariya and his barren wife is also a miracle. The birth of a child to an old man and a barren woman without scientific intervention is also a miracle that science cannot explain. There was no IVF during those times. Without external help and modern medical help such a pregnancy during those times (and even today) was unthinkable and a miracle. The Quran is replete with examples of miracle births. Jesus was not the only miracle child. Yahya, Jesus, Adam are people whose births are talked about as miracles and were only possible because of not-so-normal-divine interventions. I have provided explanations for my beliefs and this is probably my last post on this topic.

Salam everyone

Interesting discussion I must say. But I do not see any connection between the two ayats. Ayat 59:7 has the context of dividing spoils of war among believers. And believers are being asked to have faith in the prophet that the prophet has divided the spoils of war fairly and has given each person what they deserved. Believers are being asked not to create a ruckus and just accept the portion they got.

On the other hand, 5:41 has the context of a particular group of people of the book, who used to come to the prophet not with a pure heart to listen to the Quran and discern. But these people used to come to verify whether Muhammad is a true prophet or not. These people used to tell Muhammad that they believe him with their mouths but their hearts were not convinced. They used to listen to their own scholars or learned men, these learned men used to not come to the prophet themselves but used to tell these other people, who were their followers, that if Muhammad says this or that then he is a prophet. But if he does not say this or that, then he is not a prophet. So, here in these verses, God is letting the prophet know about the hypocrisy of that particular group of people of the book, whose secret wish was to test the prophet, not to belive in him or the Quran.

This is what I understand from these ayats but I am looking forward to learning from u guys if I am wrong about them and maybe a more accurate interpretation/ explanation can be provided by the learned brothers and sisters on this forum.

God bless us all  :)

General Discussions / Re: Contradiction??
« on: September 22, 2016, 12:45:26 PM »
Yes 100% assurity during labelling someone as a kafir is important! When u r labelling someone as a kafir u r essentially saying that that person is one of the people of hellfire. This is a big deal. U r making negative assumptions about someone. When u r believing someone to be a believer, in that case u r making a positive assumption about someone. Making positive assumptions about a person will not generally lead to commiting transgressions against that person. But, when we make negative assumptions about someone, we most of the time transgress and harm the person. Making negative assumptions (without substantial evidence to support such assumptions) about people have lead to a lot of harassments, muslims living abroad and also minority people can testify, how a neighbor's unfounded negative assumption can lead to arrest and harrassment and much more. So, yes I will say that I will refrain from making negative assumptions about unbelievers and call them kafir in the absence of 100% assurity.

General Discussions / Re: Contradiction??
« on: September 22, 2016, 12:17:26 PM »
Salam ilker

Yes, but showing kindness when u don't know for sure about a person's faith is following what Allah has revealed in the Quran. Who is a believer and who is not is something that I have purposefully left to God to judge . I am arguably not a messenger nor a prophet and neither did I from my reading of the Quran ever come across an ayat where God tells us that every muslim ( also muslim people who will be living without a prophet) will have to judge and be sure about who is a kafir. If someone says they are a believer, we accept it eventhough we cannot be sure that they are saying the truth. Allah had said that some suspicions lead to sin. And I believe making assumptions about the state of another's soul based on suspicion can lead to big sins. I extremely disagree that anyone today can know for sure that someone is a kafir. Whatever verses u quoted were about a person/ group of people the prophet knew personally. There were some people of the book who have deliberately sold the verses of the Quran knowing the truth. There are people of the book who are helping spread the message of Trinity and other distorted messages about the Bible unknowingly. And there are people of the book who are on the straight path. Yes, if someone is KNOWINGLY twisting the words of the Bible or Quran that person is a disbeliever. But, the problem is how will u ever determine that they are doing such a thing KNOWINGLY with 100% assurity? I know a lot of people who belive and propagate the hadiths as an indispensable part of Islam, r u saying everyone who propagates hadith are doing so knowing full well that hadiths do not have religious authority? I do not think so! I will always give people the benefit of doubt, this is my personal decision which I took after a lot of contemplation on the verses of the Quran and God's infinite mercy. As a personal decision to not transgress against unbelievers, I have and will always refrain from making assumptions about anyones's faith and state of their soul.

I would personally rather be judged by God for showing mercy and kindness to unbelievers who I am not 100% sure are kafirs or not than answer to God for making an assumption about unbelievers' souls and labelling them kafirs unknowingly. Calling people kafir without 100 % assurity about their souls is not something I want to answer to Allah for.

General Discussions / Re: Contradiction??
« on: September 21, 2016, 10:53:17 PM »
Salam Ilker

Yes about the permission to make assumptions about others' faith, this is applicable when one says that he/she is a believer. In this context we are trusting the women and providing them with shelter and protection which is a kind and noble thing to do.

But there are also verses where we are asked not to pray for forgiveness of unbelievers/kafirs, there the context is different. Those people are verified and God certified disbelievers/kafirs. The prophets were informed of their disbelief. This is no small matter. Calling someone ' kafir ' is not a small matter. The true state of one's heart cannot be known now and to actually discriminate and not pray for forgiveness of an unbeliever loved one's soul is questionable. The exact moment when a person becomes a kafir is only known to God. But, when it comes to laws where we are supposed to be harsh with unbelievers, we have to be sure that the person is a kafir. Otherwise we will be transgressing. Not all unbelievers are kafirs. We are asked to not ask for forgiveness for people who we know for sure are kafirs. This does not apply for people who are unbelievers because of lack of knowledge or access to knowledge about God and faith etc.

General Discussions / Re: Contradiction??
« on: September 21, 2016, 10:26:55 PM »
Salam Ilker

Yes I do believe that some verses were and are situation and circumstance and time specific. As society changed those verses are no longer applicable e.g verses related to slavery. In order for those laws to apply u have to bring slavery back (disclaimer: I do not want to bring slavery back). But I do not think that saying that some verses do not apply today is 'bold', it is the truth. The immediate audience and envrionment was 7th century Arabs and Arabia and its surrounding cities. If u examine the verses that talk about heaven, only fruits that the Arabs knew are mentioned. But do u believe heaven will only have dates, pomegranates and olives and only quail as a non-vegetarian option? Ofcourse not! But these are mentioned by name because 7th century Arabs were familiar with them.

It is the truth that the Quran only mentions things and circumstances that the immediate audience could relate to, but that doesn't mean the Quran is not replete with timeless gems of wisdom.
It is us, the ardent students of the Quran, who have to determine which verses we can apply to the particular society and environment that we are a part of. For example: the society I am a part of takes pre-marital sexual relationship as the norm, but as a muslim I know that it is a sin and it is my choice whether to engage in it or not. The wisdom behind not engaging in zina remains timeless.

The verse u quoted about asking behind the veil and leaving early, talks about something very situational and relevant today, so we are welcome to implement the extracted wisdom from the aforementioned ayats. But there are numerous ayats that are rendered not applicable simply because we do not live in those times. Brother Joseph discusses this in his article where he says how kosher is not really allowed for us now, because they( people of the book) are not following their rules in the bible that the 7th century Arabs were reciting and not mentioning God's name before slaughtering grazing animals. Since the situation has changed we cannot really follow the ayat where their food has been made lawful for us. I will post a link to that article below.

Again about those women, they were women who were married to men who were at war with the prophet. It is very context specific. Those men were killing and torturing believers,  it makes sense not to send the women back to them. The women who converted would not be allowed to practice Islam so they automatically have to exile to a place where they can practice Islam. The place is with the believers. The believers are given a choice. If they want they can marry those women and a divorce is not necessary in this context because God out of His infinite wisdom made divorce unnecessary in this context. The new muslim women mostly escaped from their unbeliever husbands, sending them back was almost a death sentence and women at that time did not have careers so they couldn't survive all by themselves, they needed a believer as a provider. It is very simple. Plus, the prophet was there among them. Prophets did receive guidance from God outside revelation about other people and their characters and whether to trust them or not.  This situation is context specific why I am saying? Because there are many examples of pious people who stayed married to unbelievers e.g prophet Nuh and Asiya, the wife of Pharaoh. 

Anyway if you live in an environment where practicing Islam is problematic, u r asked to immigrate or move away from the hostile environment. Now, this does not mean that only a country can be hostile, a family/ marriage can also be hostile towards Islam and the verdict to immigrate or move on from that hostile place/ person/ family/ applies. These women were just moving away from their hostile husbands and families to an environment where they could easily practice Islam. It is that simple I believe.

General Discussions / Re: Contradiction??
« on: September 19, 2016, 09:49:48 PM »
Salam Wanderer

Oh ok. I just thought maybe I couldn't present my point of view clearly. No worries  :)
And if you find that I was wrong then please do let me know. We are all here to learn together.

General Discussions / Re: Contradiction??
« on: September 19, 2016, 04:00:36 PM »
Salam Wanderer

Which part about my conclusion are u finding unacceptable? I did essentially agree with your conclusions in post 2 where u said that maybe verses of surah 9 was about people who were confirmed kafirs ( confirmed by Allah to the prophets) and verses from surah 45 was about people whose state of faith we cannot garantuee i.e we cannot be confirmed that they are kafirs. So we can forgive those talked about in surah 45.

Maybe I can learn something from u as well brother Wanderer.  :)

General Discussions / Re: Does Satan fear Allah?
« on: September 19, 2016, 03:53:50 PM »
Salam everyone

I believe the ability to obey or disobey God comes with free will. Those created and endowed with free will ( humans, jinns etc) technically always had the option/ability to disobey God. Knowing this God created creations with free will.

We do not know whether this was the first time Iblis chose to disobey God. But maybe it was the one time Iblis chose to disobey God concerning us, humans and since this is about us we are informed about it. Maybe Iblis and other creatures or other jinns did disobey God even before this incident. We don't know. Also, at the end of the day we will be punished for disobeying God, we won't be forgiven just because satan vowed to mislead us. We will be punished for using our free will to disobey. This I believe proves that it all comes down to free will and how we excersise it. Our free will and ability to obey or disobey is the test designed for us. Satan is a powerful enemy but we can defeat him if we excersise our free will and just obey God. Iblis will not be able to mislead true believers.

The  incident mentioned in Quran there Iblis refused to follow orders because of his pride and his unfounded assertion that he was better than humans. He was asked to give justification for his actions and a chance to repent but He refused. Not only that He vowed to mislead us. All this has a purpose but we don't know what!

I believe he disobeyed because he had the ability to disobey and his justification for doing so was his pride. He keeps on doing it also because he wants to prove that he was right about us, that we are a bunch of ungrateful and transgressing creatures. This he does out of pride and his need to be correct and prove his point to God. He is able to do all this because he is granted respite. Why is he granted respite? The exact reason is only known to God. But this can in the end help us find out who among us , creatures with free will, is the most noble and nearest to God.

God loves those who repent, Iblis did not repent, as far as we know, far from repenting, he is hellbent on proving his point out of sheer arrogance. This is why he does what he does. Moreover, his fate as the one fallen from grace has been sealed, he has nothing to lose but a lot of things to prove ( atleast according to him). A normal humble creature with free will would have repented and asked for forgiveness but satan is haughty and arrogant. Plus, there is a window of opportunity or a specific amount of time till which u can repent. Even for humans, we can ask for forgivenss till a specific time, before our death and before our hearts are sealed and our fates are sealed. Maybe satan has run out of his God decided amount of time allotted to him to repent. Maybe Iblis' heart has been sealed and his fate has been decided. Just the way some of our hearts are sealed and we are not guided.  These decisions are taken by God out of His infinite wisdom. He knows our souls better than us. So Iblis will keep on misleading till the day He meets his punishment like the rest of us. The day all creatures with free-will will get to know his/ her position in God's heart and His kingdom.

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