Messages

[74:31 part "and that those in whose hearts there is disease, and disbelievers, may say: What meaneth Allah by this similitude?"]

Wa 3alaykum Assalam

Your welcome brother Athman. I do noticed I overlapped your comments for sure.

Brother ibn_a please see my responses to your comments below.

- I do not see how being informed about their number/iddatahum would be a fitna /trial/confusion/test for those who disbelieve, I don't think that those who disbelieve bother at all about their number, be it 19 or whatever number as they do not believe that the Quran is from God.

I think we need to understand that disbelievers are not always people who outright admit they do not believe in the Quran. Actually the Quran seems to describe these disbelievers in verse 74:31 as ones who question and read the Quran 74:31 part "and that those in whose hearts there is disease, and disbelievers, may say: What meaneth Allah by this similitude?".

Also verse 3:7 does not speak highly of people who pursue unclear verses(mutashibahat), which seems like they read and spend time trying to seek a full interpretations and cause corruption or dissension.

Also I have a feeling and excuse me if I'm wrong but the verse is not quite understood the way it should be.

Here is a word for word translation to the best of my knowledge. Try to understand it from a pre code 19 era.

74:31 Wama jaAAalna ashabaa nnari illa mala-ikatan wama jaAAalna AAiddatahum illa fitnatan lillatheenakafaroo...

74:31 And not do We appoint/make the keepers/guardians of the fire(anyone or anything else) ONLY/EXCEPT Angels, and not do We appoint/make their number(known) ONLY/EXCEPT as a trial/confusion to those who disbelieved.

What God is telling us in this verse, in my interpolation is that He does not assign the positions for guardianship/keepers/wardens/guards to the fire to anyone or anything else but only them being Malaikat(Angels who never fail in their commands). And that the ONLY(illa)reason that He The Creator has made their number known to the humans on earth in this life through the Quran that they are 19, is ONLY because to be a confusion/trial/stumbling block to those who disbelieved. Otherwise it seems to point out in my humble opinion it does not serve any other purpose to us now.

Nor do I see how the information about their number does increase the faith of those who believe.

I have given my opinion in the previous post as to why. Pre code 19 times, no one would seem to ever understand what God meant by the number being a trial/confusion.

With the span of time this trial/confusion has been apparent. Only God Himself would know that one day this is going to be something people are going to pursue.

Believers have witnessed that no one could of ever known this situation coming to unfold only God. So today we have seen this happen which could only increase ones faith to the All-Knowing. Its another piece of information that leads more to the authenticity of God being the Source of this Quran.

Unless their number/iddatahum  refers to a numerical structure of the Quran which disturbs / confuses those who disbelieve and increases the faith of those who believe.

The believers according to the Quran are ones who have believed in the words of the Quran. Its very simple statements that seem to be in harmony with people.

I honestly find that spending time focusing on numerical structures to prove the Quran is the word of God is not getting the correct message of the Quran. At times its just taking the words of the person telling the other person that they exist and they are not able to fully verify them as you and I know it takes a tremendous effort and time and its relying on other peoples setup. That me personally. I mean they maybe fascinating and of course its not accidental. This is of course by the will of God. But its not the message. 

Their number/iddatahum was set only in order to remind   wama hya illa dikra lilbashar (74:31).

I believe the "this"(hiya) is a reference to the Quran being a reminder to humans.

Read further in context "their number/iddatahum" :

74:35 Surely, it is one of the greatest / innahā la-iḥ'dā l-kubar
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/74/35/


74:36   A warning to mankind /nadhīran lil'bashar
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/74/36/

There is nothing in these verses that suggest that its referring to their number. Their number was only mentioned in the Quran to be a trial/confusion. These verses could be referring to either the Quran or the future knowledge of this event unfolding.

Concering other numbers for example:

* 6   peroiode of creation (first time mentioned -> 7:54 )
* 7   samawaat (first time mentioned  -> 2:29 )
* 7  gates of jahannam  ( 15:44 )
* 8  in charge of ( yahmilu ) archa rabbika  ( 69:17 )
* etc..

These again some word fall under the unclear verses and some word be clear to us. The word "saba'3a" seven also means several in certain context.

We are asked to ponder on verses in order to understand:

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/38/29/
(This is) a Book We have revealed it to you, blessed, that they may ponder (over) its Verses and may be reminded those of understanding.

Of course, pondering about the verses does not mean using a numerical system that has been assigned by certain letters.

Quran 3:7 seems about bad intention ibtigha alfitna and lack of objectivity and desire fi quluobihim zaygun about the mutashabihaat verses

I do not agree with this interpolation. The verse is clear that its people whos hearts has perversity seek to pursue the mutashabihat verses(unclear) in order to cause fitna and get the full interpretation/meaning. None knows its(the Qurans) full interpretation only God.

Those are my views and comments regarding your kind comments

Salam

[should]

Assalamu 3alykum Ibn_a

Not to take away from what brother Ahman has kindly shared I was also in the process of sharing what I think so excuse me both if I overlap some of his points.

I would like to share with you two other verses from the Quran which seem to me in my humble opinion useful in understanding the part of the verse you shared.

2:26 Indeed, Allah is not timid to present an example - that of a mosquito or what is smaller than it. And those who have believed know that it is(the Quran) the truth from their Lord. But as for those who disbelieve, they say, "What did Allah intend by this as an example?" He misleads many thereby and guides many thereby. And He misleads not except the defiantly disobedient

3:7It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] clear- they are the foundation of the Book - and the others are unknown/unclear/not comprehendible/cloudy/gloomy. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unclear/cloudy, seeking discord and seeking its full interpretation. And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allah. But those firm in knowledge say, "We believe in it. All [of it] is from our Lord." And no one will be reminded except those of understanding.

First point I would like to make is, its clear from the Quran that there is verses God does not want us to pursue to get a meaning and there is those that is clear. 3:7.

According to the Quran believers are certain the Quran is the word of God and believe in the unseen. By default, automatically they do not question what they have no knowledge of or verses that maybe unclear or out of reach for them. ( This does not mean they do not listen or dismiss critics of such verses). In other words just because verses may not be crystal clear or imaginable to the modern day humans they still believe them even though they cannot be verified.

What I mean by that is, there is verses upon verses in the Quran that humans have no way of verifying if they are true or not. Such verses are those when God send prophets with miracles, Noahs long age, sleepers of the cave etc. Such stories or verses cannot be verifiable with technology or by history. Believers simply rely on the Quran as truth by default even though they are not witnesses to those events. That is because they have accepted the Quran for one reason or another that it is from the Creator of the Worlds and He has knowledge of all things.

In the Quran there are verses not fully understandable from the human perception or at least it cannot be known until God sheds light upon them when He wills if He wills. These could be verses what the Quran considers unclear(mutashibahat) in verse 3:7. For example the hour when it arrives, the time of juj and ma3juj, the verses speaking of the resurrection and the next life, possible aliens in outer space, names of areas locations Tuwa, Judi, teleportation in times of prophet Solomon, the dimensions of the Jinns, Angels etc.

Clear verses will be obvious from unclear verses which the clear(muhkamat) are the foundation of the Quran.

People of the past and people of the present have come to believe in the Qurans veracity and authenticity without the use of any technology or mathematical coding or systems. They simply reflected upon what is being revealed to them in the Quran.

The Quran at times is simply washing away the blindness that us humans have attributed to ourselves. It uncovers the blindfolds off our eyes and encourages and guides us to actually use our faculties to observe, reflect and to really use our eyes and minds. The signs are all around us and have always been there, the Quran simply takes the covers off our eyes. Insha'Allah

That being said, to those that see and have observed they know that the Quran is the truth from their Lord, and when it instructs them to pursue verses they do and when it seems that it does not want them to they dont.

In verse 74:30 number of Guardians is a reference in the next life. Its clear the number is 19.

So therefor the guardians number in verse 74:31 has been made a stumbling-block/confusion/turmoil for those who disbelieve not for the people who believe. This should be noted by the reader. Also another important note is that "fitna" does not always refer to only a trial, but confusion, turmoil, corruption, etc.

Also its not the believers who are asking "what does God mean by this parable?" Its the disbelievers. Asking that question leads one to pursue the interpretation which seems to lead to code 19. So one can safely say that its expected from the believers to not pursue the parable. For a believer its of no concern.

That being said there is no doubt the verse should be pondered and analyzed by believers and read just like any other verse. The caution that needs to be noted  is that the number is a confusion/trial/stumbling-block for the disbelievers. Which further leads to those whos hearts are sick and disbelievers ask about what does God mean by this parable?

The verse tells us that God did not appoint their number "only" that it maybe a trial/confusion to those who disbelieve.

The question as to exactly why their number is a trial/stumbling block/confusion for those who disbelieve? Thats the answer right there. God only mentioned/appointed their fixed number only that it maybe a confusion to those who disbelieve and that seems to be the only reason He mentioned the number of Guardians over it.


The code 19 seems to dismiss 2 verses in the Quran and made them to appear that they have been fabricated and not part of the pure Quran. This is no small matter. There is no evidence of this. This could divide and cause division over 2 verses and put suspicion in peoples mind. From the verses above there seems to be people who have sick hearts and want to cause division/confusion(fitna) and get full interpretation of verses(3:7).

Understanding that, I think anyone would read this verse normally and realize its not something God is asking anyone to ponder, the only ones who ask what is meant by this parable are the ones sick at hearts and disbelievers.

Before the code 19 was ever brought to peoples attention it was probably seen as a unclear(mutashibahat) like the ones mentioned in verse 3:7.

Today, this interpretation of the verse seems to come to light in our generation as to what happened, and it would be deemed a prophecy that only God had known and brought it to light which would increase those who believe and the people of the book in faith. It could also be a possibility to remind believers on what to steer away from and also possibly exposes those whose hearts are ill and want to cause some kind of fitna.

Please do not take my thoughts as if I am pointing at anyone in particular. I know many believers also just heard of the code 19 and they use it as evidence to share with non-believers and they dont even really understand it or where it came from but think its a miracle of the Quran. Im just trying to share what the interpretation of the verse is after I also read about it and found brother Josephs articles about it which I found interesting and I agree with him on this point as well. Please see an article below. 

God tells us that the Quran is protected by Him. From the day it was revealed to the Prophet to the end of times the Quran is under God's guardianship. Not a letter or verse or chapter will be fabricated. This is ultimately a belief when one realizes the Creator is actually the author of the Quran Insha'Allah.


Peace

CODE 19 AND THE REMOVAL OF TWO VERSES FROM THE QURAN - A PROBLEMATIC THEORY
http://quransmessage.com/articles/19%20FM3.htm

[Daughters of Lut]

Asalamu 3alykum Mehedi

Thank you for comments and I would like to share my humble opinion from a Qurans perspective.

You said

" Edward Lane defines بل "bal" as a particle of digression in great length. We see it is used in the Quran for pairs of opposing verses, or a verse with two opposing thoughts, to negate or amend the preceding misconception or false idea presented in the first part, and then correcting it in the second part."

First I think it is worth noting that the word "Bala" means "Yes, Indeed, Of course"

Also regarding your statement above it true that the word "Bal" is sometimes used as a digression and its used to oppose a thought/opinion/statement in the first part of the verse often when two Entities are having the dialog or when responding to the entity/ person/s.

On the other hand, when the verse is an expression or statement made by a single Entity it is used as an elucidation or a finer detail or emphasis on what is being said in the first part of the statement.

Furthermore, in both instances I find the interpretation of the word "Bal"  can safely be defined in English as at least one or more of these terms: "Truly, Honestly, Infact, Actually, Better Yet, To Be Honest, Furthermore"

Also when a speech or statement is made by a single entity there is evidence that the part of the statement that comes before the word "Bal" is not rendered/considered false but an actual statement of truth of what is being felt and expressed with a further clarification and added explanation emphasis to come after the word "Bal". This can be seen in verses like 3:180, 3:169, 7:179

So the first part of the statement is actually a correct answer or at least to the One who made the statement and the second part is clarification or more defining of the first part.

You said

"The acts being described here are sequential and associated with each other as a larger collective crime, and not totally isolated actions that are separated by time or intent."

That may very well be true.

Some of the verses relating to the stories of Lut and his people are found in these verses below

7:80-84
11:74-83
15:61-72
26:160-174
27:54-58


Prophet Lut is shown to be one who had exposed the transgressions of his people and had preached to them. But they seemed to threaten to evict him out and taken away his rights to have any visitors or guests. It is also made clear that they did robberies and conducted evil in their meetings.

Prophet Lut was weak and had no power over them at all.


Brother Joseph Islam has a post I will share below which explains this topic very well and can be verified.

Luts proposal of his daughters seemed to be a last call resort to saving a whole community and was hoping that a possible instant change in their actions could change the outcome of a whole nation being utterly destroyed.

However their response was this was the way they rather live and not to be like those who want to be pure.  So he was actually trying to protect the whole nation as a whole which he considered his people and he was also considered to be a brother to them from a Quran's perspective. Prophet Abraham is also capture to had a discussion/argument or plea bargain with the Messengers who visited him in respect to their account. This is also supported by the Bible.

This was not an ordinary situation and as Prophet he understood and believed that it was no small matter.

Please read the post below

Salam

Daughters of Lut
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=628

[[1]]

Asalamu 3alykum brother Lobotomize


I would like to share my humble opinion regarding some of your questions which I must say that I think it will also open up other topics as we go along which will lead to a long discussion. So I will try to make it as simple and short as I can and forgive me if I fade off trying to elaborate on other related topics at the same time.

Here is a verse you have shared.

48:13 And whoever has not believed in Allah and His Messenger - then indeed, We have prepared for the disbelievers a Blaze.

From what I understand or gathered of your inquiry is that Jews and Christians who do not believe in the veracity of the messenger Muhammad(pbuh) cannot be the Jews and Christians who are referred to in verses 2:62 and 5:69. So therefor those 2 verses must be in the past tense and cannot be in the present tense because it would shed tension on the verse above 48:13 since there is amongst Jews and Christians who presently do not believe in the messenger Muhammad.

So therefor to reconcile the three verses with each other one must read verses 2:62 and 5:69 in the past tense or its referring to the Jews and Christians who believe in the prophet Muhammad other wise it would be in conflict with verse 48:13.

I think first and foremost before going into detail about the verses mentioned, one must understand what a disbeliever is. Once that is acknowledged then I think the bigger picture regarding these verses can be drawn. Please see article below[1].

We must remember that when the Quran characterizes and exposes the disbelief in Jews and Christians, it is doing so to only certain specific ones. It also exposes the disbelief in Arabs as well 9:97-98. Which clearly does not mean all of the Arabs are disbelievers 9:99.

I find sometimes people fail to realize that the Quran was a live guidance to help aid the believers in a specific time and scenarios which had a set of specific circumstances. The Quran taught how to react and treat disbelieving Jews and Christian. Like some were not to be taken as friends etc. We should apply the same methods as the Quran teaches but it does not mean it will always be the same names and people.

Now the Jews and Christians that are spoken of clearly does not apply to all of them as verses like (3:113-114, 5:82-83, 7:159, 5:66, 3:75) verify that some are rightly guided. The Quran mention their names because the people who lived amongst the prophet Muhammad would of understood them and know exactly who the ones were, but to us today it would be to use the guidance and their names as an example.

Another evidence of the people who the Quran deals with is only time relevant to the prophet and his people is in verse 2:41. Also out of all humanity who were receiving the Quran at that time(God knows best their number and who many tribes), the Children of Israel were asked at that moment of time not to be the first to disbelieve which indicates there was a time period of reflection and a count down to who is going to show their disbelief first (2:41). This can possibly keep happening in the span of time over and over again. God knows best.

Verse 48:13 has a long context to it. The whole chapter is mainly regarding the Believers(mu'mins) and the Arabs who are living amongst the prophet Muhammad(pbuh).

After a victory for the prophet and the believers, God has exposed the hearts of those who stayed behind of the Arabs who did not go and help in fighting. Those people had assumed the prophet and the believers would never return back and also had evil thoughts which they harboured and therefor doubted and not truly believed in God and His messenger.

God had therefore cautioned them that for him who does not believe in God and His messenger, God has prepared a blaze for the disbelievers.

We need to look at the wisdom behind the verses, which acknowledge that its after the truth has been manifested one does indeed need to believe. These are warnings from God. No one is excused from this method. Not the people of the previous books or the people of the Quran.

What the Quran is manifesting, is that once truth has been made clear, which could be to any people at any time, then there is a time when humans must make their decision (7:34, 10:49, 13:7) . God knows best the time when truth has hit the peoples hearts and when they have believed or disbelieved.

So I do believe that the People of the Book who were living in the midst of the prophet and the ones The Almighty God has been speaking about in the Quran who heard the message clearly they were obligated to believe in the veracity of the messenger and the Quran. This is quite different though from Jews or Christians who never had the chance to read the Quran or even to give thought about it. There is also possibly in the time of the prophet also Jews or Christians who were so far away that they may of never heard the message. God knows best

I believe verse 2:62 and 5:69 is confirming to the readers or listeners of the Quran whether they lived in the time of the prophet or after him, be they Jews or Christians or believers of the final message(allatheena amanu) that who ever believes in God and the final day and does good deeds they shall not grieve nor shall they fear.

It really seems to be a refresher or confirmation to all those who have those attributes of belief that they shall not grieve or fear and seems to give that sense of comfort to keep their labels of Jews or Christians or those who believe. What it also seems to hint at, is that names or labels are not the concern, but its what is believed in the heart and that is what God looks for.

Although sometimes names are necessary in my opinion to distinguish certain people from others, but its what people do and how they act and believe which is the more important.

Another important point from the verses seems to indicate that the Jews and Christians who believe in the Quran and the messenger do not have to abandon their covenants and rites that was prescribed them. They were actually required to go back to their respective books in truth as you had clearly indicated 5:42-48.

It also seems to indicate to the believers of the Quran(allatheena amanu), that those Jews and Christians who are muslims(believe and God and the last day and do good) are like you in the sight of God and we are not to judge as they are branded in the same verses 2:62 and 5:69 with the Jews and Christians.


After all that has been said, the Quran is indeed the final Scripture given humanity which does claim to have the right over all others when faced with differences which in a way perseveres(muhaymin 5:48) the truth in other Scriptures . No one seems to be excused from believing in it after the truth has reached them.

But that does not mean that all of humanity will receive it at once or even ever (6:19).

6:19 Say, "What thing is greatest in testimony?" Say, " Allah is witness between me and you. And this Qur'an was revealed to me that I may warn you thereby and whomever it reaches. Do you [truly] testify that with Allah there are other deities?" Say, "I will not testify [with you]." Say, "Indeed, He is but one God, and indeed, I am free of what you associate [with Him]."

That being said, I think one can clearly see how the holy Quran has been used to trial humanity from the time it was revealed to possibly the time of the Hour if God wills.

It seems like it will continue if God wills to reach out to all those who say they are believers, Jews, Christians, Polytheists, Idolators, Atheists, etc.

Only God will know who have disbelieved from those who have believed.

Also regarding verse 5:44, it is helpful to read it with the surrounding verses. I do not think this verse is indicating that the Torah is perfectly protected but it seems to confirm to the prophet Muhammad that if he chooses not to give them(Jews) judgement, there is no blame on him, as they have their own scripture the Torah which the prophets judged the Jews and the Rabbis and the Priests also judged by it and they were obligated to protect and obverse(istuhfithoo). So despite the fabrication of the Jews which is verified in other verses, there is still guidance and light in the Torah, which one would come to believe it does not lead to misguidance or idolatry in the sight of God, when He the Lord is telling them to judge by it.

Salam


[1] UNDERSTANDING 'KUFR' (DISBELIEF) FROM A QURANIC PERSPECTIVE
http://quransmessage.com/articles/understanding%20kufr%20FM3.htm

Assalamu 3alykum brothers and sisters

Masha'Allah it seems not so long ago that the last Ramadan went by.

May the Almighty Creator increase you all in faith and wisdom this blessed month of Ramadan Insha'Allah.

Ramadan Mubarak

Salam

Assalamu 3alykum brother Lobotomize94

You said

Lets read the following verses after (54:1) –
"The moon has split and the hour has drawn closer.

The verse actually does not state that. Its actually the other way around.


54:1 Iqtarabati a(l)ssaAAatu wa(i)nshaqqa alqamar(u)

The Hour has drawn near, and the moon has split.

I feel it makes a difference if read the other way. Thought I would point this out

Salam

Assalamu 3alykum brother Joseph

It's been a while and it's nice to hear from you Alhamdulila.

Alhamdulila from Canada the website is working well with no issues.

Insha'Allah you and your family and all those brothers and sisters are doing well.

May the peace and blessings of Allah be upon you all Insha'Allah

Salam

Assalamu 3alykum brother Ahmad

Before I share an article that Insha'Allah will help you with the understanding of the verse, I would like you to put yourself in the prophet Muhammad's(pbuh) position for a moment.

We notice in the great Quran that on many occasions that the prophets people were accusing him of being a false messenger.

At times they rejected the prophet because they assumed if God wanted to guided them He would of sent Angel's instead. They accused him of being no different than them as a human.

They also denied the prophet on the basis that he did not provide them with miracles. Some called him a man possessed. Some also accused him of forging the Quran or that others have been teaching him. We also notice that some claimed that what the prophet is reciting is just mixed up dreams.

If one was to put their place in his position while understanding that the Quran was inspired or transmitted to the prophet through possibly dreams and only seeing Gabriel twice then how would you think or act after so many people have accused you of being a crazy mad man, or possessed or a magician or just having dreams and that your no different than them and your just only a human being. Especially when you were never a reader of the previous Scripture or had no idea of the system of God. Imagine yourself a normal human who had no hope of being a prophet nor did you know the faith or the Book and all of a sudden you started getting inspiration and then also being ridiculed and mocked at for what you are believing to be true.

Imagine yourself giving in to the people's words and thinking maybe just maybe they are right that I'm only a human and maybe I am just having dreams and why me ? Is this possibly just a phase or something happening to me?

Then strong verses are inspired to the prophet to affirm that this is not unusual for God to guide humanity through humans. Humans who ate and drank and walked the streets, humans who were not given immortal life. In fact God always used humans as a proxy to communicate His messages to humankind. He asked the prophet go and ask them the people of the reminder who were the Christian's and the Jews. Go see who Jesus and Moses and Abraham and the prophets(pbut) were? Are they Angels? Are the stories correct?

The verse you have shared seems to have been inspired to the prophet after the narrative of Moses(pbuh) and what happened with Pharoah and the children of Israel.

The prophet would not of known this narrative and imagine now that you ask the people of the Book and it confirms what you have been inspired how lifting that would be. Now you are assured this is the truth from ONLY the Almighty God who sees and knows everything.

The verses do not say the prophet actually doubted but asked him not to doubt as you can imagine how a human would feel after so much ridicule.

Please also see this article that I think Insha'Allah will give you more thought about it

Also sorry that I did not provide verses to support what was said but Insha'Allah as you read the Quran you will notice them.


Salam

FINGERPRINTS OF AUTHENTICITY
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=216314685172333&id=100003814101226&__tn__=%2As-R

Assalamu 3alykum brother Ahmad

Thank you for sharing the website, that was kind of you. Insha'Allah I will use it for further research

May God bless you all

Salam

Your welcome and thank you as well

May God bless you too Insha'Allah

Salam

Wa 3alykum assalamu

Your welcome brother, there is also another verse I forgot to mention which would be worth sharing regarding this topic.


8:25 "And fear/guard against a chastisement / trial which cannot afflict exclusively those of you who do wrong, and know that God is severe in punishment"

That trials, punishments, calamities, will not always "only" fall on those who are wrong-doers. It may also fall on those who are righteous.

May Allah protect us and make us cautious of the trials and save us Insha'Allah. May He give us strength and patience with all that overcomes us Insha'Allah.

Salam

Peace brother Good logic

I find you still are using the terms "Muslims" and "Islam" to mean the same thing.

you said

You seem to agree with me that you find"Islam in past scripture ,yet insist Islam is named from Qoran like here,

Yes Islam predates the Quran which is confirmed in 42:13. It also predates Abraham(pbuh) as confirmed by that verse which indicated even Noah(pbuh) has also been given the "Deen"(system).


Also the definite article "AL" before the word "Islam" indicates that its a "noun". That means AL-ISLAM is a title given or actual name. There is nothing strange that God has given it a name as I have explained its possibly because the ending of Scripture and prophethood. But it does seem like previous communities understood there was a "DEEN" (system) that was to God. There could of been possibly an equivalent terminology in their respective languages. God knows best

Or do you mean you are not sure? Then Qoran clearly told us Islam was named before by Abraham:" Huwa Sammakum Al Muslimeen..."

There is no where in that verse 22:78 that tells us "Islam" was the name given to us by Abraham. As you can see it was the name "Muslimeen" and not "Islam" that was given. As mentioned before Islam and Muslim cannot always be used to mean the same thing. 

Also there is support to suggest that it was God and not Abraham who named those with faith "Muslimeen" as the pronoun "Huwa" can strongly be argued to be referring to God. Given the fact that even Noah was commanded to be from among the "Muslimeen" (10:72) who predates Abraham(6:84).

Whether the "Huwa" is a reference to God or to Abraham(God knows best), the importance of the verse seems to state that, those with faith to the One True God were to be distinguished in the world from others and were termed "Muslimeen". Either way the term "DEEN"(system) or "AL-ISLAM"  is not included in this verse which therefor cannot be used as evidence that the term "Islam" was used before the Quran or not.

You said

"Also you did not deal with the contradiction mentioned in my last post."

1- GOD makes it clear in Qoran that whoever accept ANY OTHER DEEN apart from ISLAm , will be with the losers.
2- Yet iinforms us as follows:
Surely, those who believe, those who are Jewish, the converts, and the Christians; any of them who (1) believe in God and (2) believe in the Last Day, and (3) lead a righteous life, have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.

There is no contraction here brother, just understand part one of your comment which relates to verse 3:85 on a governmental basis.

Does God not ask people to believe in His revelations and to submit to His authority(To implement His commands and not cut off what He has ordained)? Does not verses 5:44-47 instruct those who are Jews to Judge by the Torah and those who received the Gospel to judge by the Gospel and if they don't they are either disbelievers, rebellious, or wrong doers?


5:44(part) Whoso does not judge by that which God has revealed; such are the disbelievers(Kafiroon)

Its confirmed again in 5:45.

God also commands those who were given the Injeel to judge by what is in it 5:47

5:47(part)  Whoso does not judge by that which God has revealed; such are the rebellious (fasiqoon)

So when those in power have rejected the system of God after the matters of the religion/system(ISLAM) is made clear to them and when there is absolutely no reason to deny it, they would be deemed as losers. This would be akin to disbelieving in God's message. You will notice also how God does exchange power and authority in the land to trial others. It appears to be an on-going process(God knows best).


However those who are faithful(Muslims), those who believe (in the Quranic message), those who are Jews and Christians who believe in One God, and do righteous works and believe in the Last Day, they shall have no fear nor shall they grieve. These are all Muslims.

I do find that there is certain words in the Quran that there is times they maybe used interchangeably but there is times where they have a definite explicit meaning.

At the end God knows best and may the Almighty Lord guide us to the path that is straight Insha'Allah.

Insha'Allah I will keep this topic in mind, and what you have commented and if I find there is evidence throughout the Quran as to interchangeably defining the terms Muslim and Islam together and they are one and the same, then I would have to Insha'Allah change my views.

Asalamu 3alykum

[The Religion/System(DEENA) before God is Islam(AL-ISLAMU)]

Peace Good logic

you said

If one accepts "islam to GOD ,he/she is a "Musl;im to GOD"

It would be true if what you mean by "accepts" as means to implement the rulings, but only as a community based or as a government. Those who follow and implement Islam would be classified as muslims by default. But until its implemented one cannot say they follow Islam. They may believe in it. But they arguably do not follow it only to the limits of the basic tenants as individuals which would label them muslims or mu'mins.

As Islam cannot be practiced and implemented in its entirety on an individual basis, one is not to say I follow Islam because in fact if its not followed by the rules then its not really being followed.

But rather one would say that they would be a submitter to God(Muslim), or a Believer(Mu'min). This solves the whole man made religions and sectarian divides. Either people are Muslims who believe in the One True God and believe in any one of the Scriptures(Christians or Jews from the various sectarian divides, Muslims from different sectarian divides) or they are Mu'mins(believers) who believe in the One True God, His Angels, His Scriptures and Messengers.


If one asks what is the religion/system that God has sent to humanity, one does not respond to it as "Muslim", but rather it would be Islam in arabic.

3:19 The Religion/System(DEENA) before God is Islam(AL-ISLAMU) (submission to His Will): Nor did the People of the Book dissent therefrom except through envy of each other, after knowledge had come to them. But if any deny the Signs of God, God is swift in calling to account.

As stated also before that Islam seems to be system(DEEN) that is given authority and implemented on a society.

5:3(part) This day have I perfected your religion/system(DEENAKUM) for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen(RADEETU) for you "Islam" as your religion/system(DEENAN). But if any is forced by hunger, with no inclination to transgression, Allah is indeed Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

24:55 Allah has promised, to those among you who believe and work righteous deeds, that He will, of a surety, grant them in the land, inheritance/succession (of power), as He granted it to those before them; that He will establish in authority their religion(DEEN) - the one which He has chosen(IRTADA) for them; and that He will change (their state), after the fear in which they (lived), to one of security and peace: 'They will worship Me (alone) and not associate aught with Me. 'If any do reject Faith after this, they are rebellious and wicked.

Islam has its roots before the revelation of the Quran and all the Prophets and messengers were instructed to establish the system of Islam with their respective Scripture.

42:13(part) The same religion/system(DEEN) has He established for you(O'Believers) as that which He enjoined on Noah and that which We have sent by inspiration to thee(O'Muhammad) - and that which We enjoined on Abraham, Moses, and Jesus : (saying)Namely, that ye should establish/enjoin the religion(DEEN), and make no divisions therein:...

An analysis of the Quran seems to illustrate we have 3 different forms of Islam today and all of them are warranted by God(5:43-48).

Islam from the Old Testament
Islam from the New Testament
Islam from the Quran

It could be because of the Quran being the final Scripture and being the seal that it has then been given a name of "Islam".

If I had to translate in English, I would possibly say "Submission to His will and Guidance"

I would use the term Islam in ways only regarding a system/constitution/government.

If you asked me what kind of systems/constitutions do certain countries/governments judge by, I would respond there is, Democratic, Monarchy, Dictatorship, Communism, Socialism, Capitalism, Military, etc.

Islam would be one to include in the list, and those who use the Scriptures would arguably be under an Islamic Law or the Submission to God's Will and Guidance.


From my humble perspective and from the verses and opinions that I have heard concerning this topic it is from the best of what I can understand. May God forgive me for any errors that I have expressed and for any errors of the believers as well Insha'Allah.

Here are some articles[1] that maybe also of assistance to help with this topic Insha'Allah

Thank you brother

May God bless you as well Insha'Allah.

[1]WHAT IS THE TRUE DEFINITION OF 'DEEN' FROM A QURAN'S PERSPECTIVE?
http://quransmessage.com/articles/what%20is%20the%20true%20defintion%20of%20deen%20FM3.htm

IS THE QURAN SIMPLY A REVELATION TO BE UNDERSTOOD AND APPLIED ON A PERSONAL LEVEL?
https://www.facebook.com/joseph.a.islam/posts/538289746308157

[Islam]

Peace Good logic

you said

MY ANSWER:: You are talking about "believers" in Qoran . Different subject than "Muslim to GOD".  "Muslim" existed before Qoran.  What about Christians and Jews s? What about followers of other messengers in the past  that Qoran has not told us about?

What about the Christians and the Jews? Did they not receive guidance from the Almighty God? Are they not tasked to judge by what God has revealed to them in the Injeel and the Torah (5:43-47)?


Why are you talking about followers of messengers that the Quran did not mention to you? You acknowledge the Quran did not tell us anything about them, so its irrelevant. You do not know their followers or even if they exist now.


Why have you changed your words from  "Islam to God" to "Muslim to God"  ?

The whole subject between me and you was regarding Islam not a muslim. You have claimed that Islam is one religion, however, its a state of mind and that can be found in all the religions and even with people without religion despite their laws.

As you have stated

" Islam is a state of mind and can be found in people who have no religion or in any religion."

"There is only one religion: (Islam to GOD not Islam the religion of the so called Muslims). Islam to GOD is a state of mind and can be found in all man s religions Judaism,Christianity, Traditional Islam,Hinduism...etc. It can even be found with people who have no religion."

So the laws and rulings in God's Scriptures have no real meaning, as since Islam is already in all these and its just a state of mind?

Now you have changed your terminology to "Muslim to God".


Is Islam to God the same as Muslim to God? Please remain consistent.

Islam is a system/religion which cannot be practiced on a individual level outright. The Quran does however stipulate and command matters and tenants of worship and basic beliefs to its believers on a personal level which it requires them to implement.

The Quran illustrates what Islam is. It is a constitution that is implemented by a society by using either the Quran, Old Testament, or New Testament.

5:3(part) This day have I perfected your religion/system(Deenakum) for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen(radeetu) for you "Islam" as your religion(Deenan). But if any is forced by hunger, with no inclination to transgression, Allah is indeed Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

24:55 Allah has promised, to those among you who believe and work righteous deeds, that He will, of a surety, grant them in the land, inheritance/succession (of power), as He granted it to those before them; that He will establish in authority their religion(Deen) - the one which He has chosen(irtada) for them; and that He will change (their state), after the fear in which they (lived), to one of security and peace: 'They will worship Me (alone) and not associate aught with Me. 'If any do reject Faith after this, they are rebellious and wicked.



Muslim is anyone who believes in God regardless of where they live, what constitution they abide by, what sectarian divide they choose, etc. God knows best who is a muslim.

Peace

Assalamu 3alykum Good logic

I would like to ask you a couple questions

Do you agree that God has prescribe rulings that deal with marriage, divorce, inheritance, punishments, repentance, amendments, corruption, theft, politics, treaties, taxes, wars, testimonies, etc


Do you agree that God has commanded that those laws need to be implemented by those who are believers and in authority and if they don't and they cut off what God has ordered to be joined they would be losers possibly even disbelievers(2:27, 5:43-48)

Do you believe that an individual is able to implement Quranic commands on a individual level? Like is one able to carry out rulings such as punishments, marriage, inheritance on a individual level or do you think this must be considered under a community or societal level?

If you may kindly answer those questions it would be very appreciated.

You said

"The diversity and different rules are not the issue, the issue is to accept GOD Alone as the only authority, follow the straight path to become a good soul."

May you kindly explain to me how can having different rulings/laws than what God alone has commanded  in the Quran be the same as accepting God alone as the only authority?


Being on a straight path to becoming a good soul is an attribute of a Muslim and mu'mins. Who is and who isn't a muslim is not the topic but just to clarify it can be anyone from any culture or system/religion that believes in the God of the universe. But this is not the scope of the subject as you have indicated that Islam is a state of mind and can be found in people who have no religion or in any religion.

But if you can answer those questions that would be most appreciated and then we can either continue or possibly just agree to disagree

Salam