Messages

31

General Discussions / Re: HELP: Pascale's wager means we should be Christian and not Muslim?

« on: March 28, 2020, 05:29:14 AM »

Peace Good logic


Im not trying to make this conversation a lengthy one and I'm regretting that I even got into this conversation in the first place to be honest because you are making it look like I have said or implied something that I did not.

you said

However, a Muslim to GOD can be from any religion or from no religion. Only GOD knows the true inner most thoughts.

Of course and never did I reject that. Muslims, Mu'mins(believers) are different topic that Islam.

My point was that there maybe other systems/religions that may over lap with Islam in some areas of ruling or beliefs, but they are not Islam. Dictatorship ruling, or communism or other systems modern or not despite their belief in God is still not Islamic. There maybe muslims in those systems but they are not Islamic systems. No more no less. Islam is any ruling that comes from any of the Scriptures God has sent down. Noah, Abraham, Mosses, Jesus and Muhammad (pbut) all were sent with an Islamic ruling.

Christianity, Judaism, have a Scripture that they are commanded to judge with. If they do, they would be enjoining in a Islamic ruling or in more of a english terminology they are ruling by the system of God. Which is:

3:19 The Religion/System(Deen) before God is Islam (submission to His Will): Nor did the People of the Book dissent therefrom except through envy of each other, after knowledge had come to them. But if any deny the Signs of God, God is swift in calling to account.

42:13(part) The same religion(deen) has He established for you as that which He enjoined on Noah - that which We have sent by inspiration to thee(O'Muhammad) - and that which We enjoined on Abraham, Moses, and Jesus : Namely, that ye should establish the religion(deen), and make no divisions therein:...

Any other systems are not Islamic, and to make this clear, crystal clear I am not saying that those who live in a non-Islam system is not a Muslim or a believer. It seems to me you think Islam is the same as a muslim.

We as muslims should understand what Islamic systems are since we are readers of the Book.

For example they are systems that would include, establishment of prayers, establishment of zakat, establishment for laws regarding marriage, divorce, inheritance, corruption, punishments, war, politics, enjoining in the good and forbidding the evil, democracy etc.

I am also not saying that Islam must be forced into law, as their is no compulsion in the system and also one is not forbidden to live under other systems as long as one is not oppressed.

May God bless you and salam

32

General Discussions / Re: HELP: Pascale's wager means we should be Christian and not Muslim?

« on: March 27, 2020, 08:30:50 AM »

Peace Good logic

As you kindly shared that 2:112 "whoever surrenders(Aslama) his purpose to God while doing good, his reward is with his Lord, and there shall be no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve"

But I am not arguing on the basis that if a person outside the fold of Islam is going to enter heaven or not.

That is only and ultimately up to the Almighty God. That is not what I was disputing neither would I ever do that.


I was just making it clear that the system of God (Islam) should be recognized through the Scriptures He has sent to us and its different than other religions/systems. Because you said that Islam can be found in any religion or people with no religion at all. I don't agree with that.

There is evidence in the Quran that only what was send down from God through the prophets and messengers was the correct religion and that is the system/religion that is correct which is Islam and there are systems/religions that are not correct.

The system/religion that is correct is Islam.

3:19 The Religion/System(Deen) before God is Islam (submission to His Will): Nor did the People of the Book dissent therefrom except through envy of each other, after knowledge had come to them. But if any deny the Signs of God, God is swift in calling to account.

Some systems/religions are not correct.

9:33 It is He Who has sent His messenger with guidance and the religion of truth, to proclaim it over all religion/systems(Deen), even though the Idolaters may detest it”

What was sent down to all the prophets and messengers were correct systems/religions

3:84 Say, "We have believed in Allah and in what was revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and the Descendants, and in what was given to Moses and Jesus and to the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and we are Muslims [submitting] to Him."

3:85 And whoever desires other than Islam as religion - never will it be accepted from him, and he, in the Hereafter, will be among the losers.

Also to sum it up to Lobotomize94, Christians and Jews who follow the Scriptures in truth are part of the system of God(Islam)(42:13). The Scriptures that God has revealed all are a category of Islam. There is no need to label your self a Christian or Jew neither is it wrong to identify yourself as one.

The messengers where all under one system Islam.

Each one of them was ordered that they should establish the system "Islam" which is confirmed in verse 3:19 and it was also chosen for prophet Muhammad and his people in 5:3 and that do not be divided in it.

42:13 The same religion has He established for you as that which He enjoined on Noah - the which We have sent by inspiration to thee - and that which We enjoined on Abraham, Moses, and Jesus: Namely, that ye should remain steadfast in religion, and make no divisions therein: to those who worship other things than Allah, hard is the (way) to which thou callest them. Allah chooses to Himself those whom He pleases, and guides to Himself those who turn (to Him).


I thought it would be important to point that out as I find what God has sent down should be distinguished between man made religions/systems and that it is not something that can be just picked out from the whims of people.

The system of God does contain certain laws and duties that believers are required to undertake and implement which is found in Scripture. However there is no compulsion in religion/system and neither am I saying that a non-believer will not be going to heaven or have salvation or not.

May God bless you too

Salam

33

General Discussions / Re: HELP: Pascale's wager means we should be Christian and not Muslim?

« on: March 26, 2020, 08:17:42 AM »

Assalamu 3alykum brother Good logic

It appears from your comments that Islam is just a system or religion that is self imposed or that it does not need to be implemented on a societal level as you stated that it can be found with people who have no religion.


You said

So if one is  a christian or any religion is irrelevant as long as they:
-Believe in GOD.
-Believe they are accountable-A day of judgement-.
-Do good deeds and have good morals. 

As though these are great deeds to have in a person I ask what about if one was to reject the Old and New Testaments and the Quran but still believes in a God but not the god of Abraham, not the God who has been sending down revelations and messengers with the same message, but does good deeds and has good morals and believes in a judgement day? Does this amount that one is following Islam?

So in other words a person would believe in a one higher power but does not agree that it's the one who sent the Scriptures that we have today and does good deeds and has good morals and believes in a judgment day would that be considered Islam?

Not to get into a debate but just want to point out that Islam is a entity of it's own that requires a set of specific beliefs and commands from Scripture.

Although what you pointed out is without question and doubt a great position and very good character in a person and of course God does give the rewards to the doers of good. But it should be distinguished between the specific continuous chain of guidance that has been revealed by the One same God "Islam".

Salam

34

General Discussions / Re: More questions for Joseph Islam: Biblical Prophecies regarding Prophet Muhammad

« on: October 15, 2019, 04:21:10 PM »

Asalamu 3alykum xsilentmurmurx

Your question to me seems very difficult to answer.

Insha'Allah I may add some of my views and maybe it will help in some way.


Lets say in our era today a book was being spread and it claims to be from God. Lets say this book has been spreading rapidly on the internet or through people.

How does a Jew, Christian or Muslim cope with this book while this book is completely different from those messages?

The way I can see any one leaving a religion or path is if one is given a better position or manifestation of truth of what is already with them or if they are presented with clear evidence of their falsehood.

The Quran for example seems to demand from those who are searching for evidence that to present a book then that is a better guidance than the Quran and what was given to Moses which is from the Creator so that one can follow it? (28:49). If one can't then they are just following their own desires.

This seems to indicate that the Quran is holding its position and also challenges that there is no other better guide and is expecting humans to follow the best of what they are presented with and also seems to indicate that there is a guide from the Creator.

That being said

There seems to be a universal truth in this life. Its sometimes a new message to a people and sometimes it is a reminder to a people who were guided before. This universal truth has always been from the same One True God. Although it comes in different forms, the root of the truth is always from God and is always manifested somehow someway.

One is expected to leave a position in belief if something seems false or a truer position has come to light.

The guidance of God has always seemed to do just that. It brought people from darkness to light whether it was a community who was guided but lost somethings of guidance or whether it was a new community.

So anyone presented with a true prophet or messenger would always recognize them by the words that they speak. Sometimes they expose the falsehood and sometimes they confirm the truth.

Now to answer your question, the Jews and the Christians assuming they are a people who claim to uphold truth, they should also recognize truth when it is revealed because it would be a confirmation of what is with them and they are familiar with the messages and voices of the Lord. They were people who would recognize the words of God better than they would recognize their own sons.

Why is that? Because they are familiar with the chains of messengers and prophets that preached the same religion. Prophet Muhammad is no different. He also was sent to them with the same religion. 

Therefore there was an expectation that once the message was manifested they should also believe it was from God .

The indicator is that truth itself stand outs. It is recognized.

For example,

Although many can believe in prophets and messengers because of what they here about them, some would also doubt that some messengers and prophets were actually real. They would need evidence or some manifestation of there authenticity.

Some also might believe in prophet Muhammad as being a true prophet just from heresy but some also do not believe in the prophet Muhammad as being a true prophet because of what was said of him from traditions and heresy, but they would believe in his authenticity as a true prophet because of the mighty words the Quran contains. It is the Quran that manifest that he was a true prophet of God and not just a man claiming to be so. We realize after reading the Quran this fact. Many come to this conclusion through so many ways from the Quran.

You said

how would the Jews and Christians be able to distinguish between which Prophet is the true Prophet and which one is a false one? There has to be some indicator in the Bible that would set apart our Prophet from any false claimants during his time or after his time. Or else, how would anyone be able to tell who is speaking the truth?

I think this question applies to us just as much it applies to them.

How do you tell that prophet Muhammad was a true prophet rather than just one who claimed to be one and was believed by many people especially when one does not believe in the heresy of people and wants evidence?

What makes you so sure that he was not a false prophet? We did not see him nor do we have any physical indicators.

We did not see the miracles that were given to prophet Moses, or Jesus, but we believe in them. why?

Those are my thoughts

Salam

35

General Discussions / Re: Prophet Abraham asked to sacrifice his son?

« on: October 15, 2019, 07:59:02 AM »

Asalamu 3alykum brother Wakas

Thank you for sharing your perspective on the narrative.

These are my humble thoughts on your perspective.

You still seem to accept that a dream of an actual slaughter/sacrifice has appeared to Abraham in his dream because of course the word of "dhib'hin/sacrifice" was used and as you admitted that "Dh-B-Ḥ carries the meanings:
a) to split something,
b) to slit someone's/something's throat
c) to strangle someone/something."

and admitted that "and this word is always used to mean a literal slaughter/sacrifice/kill in Quran."

So in this case your saying the dream is still ultimately from God because he was commanded to separate from his son.

Since your saying that Abraham interpreted the dream that he was to separate from his son rather than slaughter/sacrifice his son, why does God call out to him "O' Abraham, Surely you have believed/confirmed the vision...." when yet Abraham still has not departed or separated from his son at this point.

What is the significance of this?

Since your also saying that they just put there heads together instead of Abraham putting his sons head down I do not see any separation at this point although the son was said he would bare patience while the command was carried. So the command at this stage if taken as separation was not yet carried out nor did the son need to have patience because no separation was done yet and also the significance of the verse when God has called "O' Abraham" has been totally undermined and given little significance.

What your interpolation seems to be suggesting to me is that Abraham had a dream of a literal slaughter/sacrifice of his son and then reinterpreted the dream to leave his son instead. Then as they were just getting ready to separate and saying goodbye, God calls to him for reinterpreting the dream to the correct way and also exchanged Abrahams separation with a great sacrifice.

I am also not sure how you interpreted 3:107. You said "In the Abraham leaving scenario the "great/mighty sacrifice" would refer to the great sacrifice made by leaving his beloved son, making it a self-contained explanation."

What is the exchanged or ransom that was done by God for the operation to Abraham? the verse says "Wafadaynahu bithibhin AAatheemin"- "We ransomed him with a sacrifice great".

Would this make sense to say " we ransomed him(Abraham) with a great separation"?


For a few reasons I cannot accept this interpolation and I think it undermined the Quranic narrative to where much of the wisdom that can be extracted towards how such prophets interacted with such inspirations has been taken away. It also undermines the wisdom that can be extracted that shows how such prophets struggled with their capacity as being prophets and there struggles to understand what was from the Lord and what was not from the Lord and their eagerness to never disobey the Lord.

It was a good read, but I have to respectfully argue that I find that Abraham had a dream that he seemed very stunned by and which he obviously thought it was from the Lord.

We do understand from the Quran that Abraham is not foreign to inspirations and witnessing great miracles like how he was saved from the fire.

The dream lead him to ask what his son thought of it which also illustrated the belief they both had towards God. The son did seem certain with the belief in God and replied that in my own words that if this is what God had commanded then do what your commanded as this shows their trust in God.

This question by Abraham to his son also seems to show there could of been a little doubt and the struggle he was copping with, and would possibly be easier with the acceptance of his son.

They both submitted and as the practice was being taken place and the patience of the son was being illustrated and the act was being taking place as the sons head was flung down, God by His mercy had intervened and stopped this action and exchanged some how some way his son to a great sacrifice of some sort. No details given of how this happened and what was exchanged. However this is not surprising as also we understand those communities of the past had been shown miracles and Abraham also is one who seems to be familiar with the intervention of God when God saved him from the fire and made the fire to be cool.

Also no where in the Quran does it say God had commanded it.

Thanks for sharing

Salam

36

Women / Re: Women's clothes and rape?

« on: September 11, 2019, 02:38:27 PM »

Asalamu 3alykum MaHa

Yes I agree with you as well that TausifAhmed has misunderstood brother Joseph's perspective on that.

Salam

37

General Discussions / Re: Understanding 73:2, 73:20

« on: September 01, 2019, 03:06:24 AM »

Asalamu 3alykum student

The verse your inquiring about seems to catch a period where the prophet and some of those following him are staying up the night either studying or reading the Quran.

God is telling him that He is aware of the amount of time they are up during the night and that they do not keep count but God does.

Although God did instruct the prophet with a heavy job at the beginning of the chapter which requires the prophet to organize or arrange the Quran and possibly also reffering to the task of prophethood in a whole, God then seems to give some guidance or release the task that they were doing on how to study or read the Quran and said to only recite what is easy as there is those that are sick and those that are fighting and those that have to work and travel. 

It further clarifies that to recite what is easy and pray and pay the dues and  lend to God a goodly lending and that any thing you bring forth as good deeds you will find it with God.

So therefore this verse seems to be showing how the prophet and those with him how they were engaging with the Quran.

The tahajjad is in another chapter which was an additional requirement only for the prophet on either an additional prayer or a task imposed only for him which could also be reffering to reading the Quran.

Peace

38

Islamic Duties / Re: ZAKAT

« on: July 05, 2019, 06:12:45 PM »

Peace Wakas

So may you kindly tell us then what is meant by "waatoo haqqahu yawma hasadihi"

This is a command from the Lord. Which also is a duty amongst those who are not believers according to verse 41:6-7.

The word "aatoo" is translated "pay or give"


Also you will see the same word used in verse 41:7 where it says "yatuuna" which is specifically regarding "zakat" which is the same word but in a different form than "aatoo".

You said

By the same reasoning it would mean those in governance should establish a system of salat.

I do not see a problem with that at all.

As you can see many countries till now have religious holidays and celebrate many occasions that are regarded or rooted through religion and seem very fine.

When God expects those who He establishes in the land and gives them authority to establish prayer and zakat, why should they not do that regarding a form of prayer if one is not established or a system if zakat if one is not established when God is also requiring them to judge the people according to His book anyways.

They can also establish a system where their citizens are given the rights to pray at the stated times and have benefits for mosques churches and synagogue.

This does not mean they have to force everyone to participate or anyone to believe.

Salam

39

General Discussions / Re: Is Adan (Azan) is warranted from Quran?

« on: June 15, 2019, 01:27:45 PM »

Asalamu 3alykum Beyond Tradition

Here is an excerpt from brother Joseph regarding this topic

The tradition to signify a call to prayer to invite believers to worship would have started from the Prophetic ministry and would thus arguably be an en masse practice.

An expectation is clearly captured in verse 62:9 and there would be a strong argument here to suggest that a practice had been initiated by the first believers before ritual prayers / congregational worship.

Whether one call is made or a secondary call (iqama / iqamat) is made just before prayer starts does not conflict with the essence of the Quran's guidance on this matter which is the need to establish worship and the expectation that there is a call of some form.

Therefore in my humble view, this would have been an en masse practice enshrined later in the Ahadith corpus. Hence, I would see no need to break tradition.

Calling to prayer is not a new concept amongst Abrahamic faiths (no matter how it is performed). One is familiar with the Jewish Barechu or the Christian Bells.

The Quran in the main does not appear to be focused on how it is performed as long as some suitable form exists." [2]

Regarding the sound level of the call of prayer one might have different views.


In a thriving community of Muslims within their own vicinity there maybe sound warrant for them to have a call for their prayer in public.

This would be warranted even more especially if the whole system they are living in is governed by the Book of God the Quran.

It can also be argued that those who are not accepting of it and are disturbed can also need to tolerate it since the foundation of the government is built on a Godly way and anything to do with that way would be seen applicable.

That would not give the right to also except load music in the same respect as this is not part of a system that is rooted from the Quran.

There is also an instruction in the Quran that the prayer however shoulf be in a moderate tone which is not to load and not to low.

Hope that helps Insha'Allah

Salam

40

Islamic Duties / Re: Moon Sighting

« on: June 06, 2019, 04:07:36 AM »

Thank you Truth Seeker

I thought instead of troubling brother Joseph ill share a link here.

I'll see if this works.

It was a little more clear and observant in person than the picture when I saw the crescent.

https://www.justbeamit.com/gqbrd

Salam

41

Islamic Duties / Re: Moon Sighting

« on: June 05, 2019, 04:40:56 PM »

I also took a picture. I'll share it as soon as I post it Insha'Allah

I tried to post some pictures yesterday about some other websites but it did not go through.

Does anyone know if I can upload a picture from a phone?

Thanks

42

Islamic Duties / Re: Moon Sighting

« on: June 05, 2019, 04:36:11 PM »

Wa 3alykum assalam sister Truth Seeker

I think today I have experienced what you want through. May God have mercy on you.

I will look into that Insha'Allah and see how that works.

Today actually I went out and seen the crescent moon Masha'Allah it was soo beautiful.

I saw it for about 1hr. I spotted it about maybe 10 minutes I think after sunset.

It started to decline around the area where the sunset was but a little to the left of the sunset. About 1hour later I had not seen it as it might if defended below the horizon.

It was really visible to me today Masha'Allah but I am not sure if it was the first sighting or the second day as yesterday I was not looking in the correct direction.

I showed it to some family as well but the argument was its too visible and that if it was the first sighting then it should only last about 10 min and then disappear.

Insha'Allah i will try to observe the next new moon crescent and see how it works.

If this was all it was supposed to be I do not see any difficulty Masha'Allah.

I pointed it out to some kids as well and they all even spotted it Masha'Allah. They really liked it

Below is a video of how to sight a new crescent moon for those who are interested.

How to sight the new crescent moon
https://youtu.be/iD4gf67n9cc

43

General Discussions / Re: Marriage with the People of the Book

« on: June 05, 2019, 04:18:09 PM »

Peace

Just to add to brother Dusters comments regarding 2:106. This is also alluded to the children of Israel as well when they believe in the Quran.

Meaning that God has nullified the restriction of eating of the fat and other food that was restricted to the children of Israel.

Because the Quran has clearly stated that the food that the Quran legitimizes is NOW lawful for the people of the book. Which in other words this specific detail of food for the people of the book has been replaced with the new rulings for food.

Also it is telling the people of the book that yes God can bring a verse similar or better than before or replace or abrogate.

You will need to prove to me that the laws and covenants of the people of the book have been severed.

As a matter of fact the verse is still asking for the covenants to be fulfilled so that God will do His part for the children of Israel

2:40
O Children of Israel! Remember My favour wherewith I favoured you, and fulfil your (part of the) covenant, I shall fulfil My (part of the) covenant, and fear me.

Peace

44

General Discussions / Re: Marriage with the People of the Book

« on: June 05, 2019, 01:44:00 AM »

Peace Mohammed

I'm not arguing that they did not have to follow the prophet. This is another topic. We already explained also that people of the book are expected to believe in the Quran as well if its been manifested to them. I told you before that how can a previous believer of a Book of God disbelieve in another scripture that confirms what was already said.

What Im arguing for is that the following of the prophet was literal. The people living in his time were expected to follow him as a human in matters of religion as the Quran was being revealed to him. The people of the book also would of been expected to follow him and help him while abiding by their covenants of old or out of choice abandon their laws and methods and adapt to the laws of the Quran.

It is also clear from the verses you shared that it was a major test for the people who were living amongst him.

If you notice the prophet has actually followed a qibla direction that his own people were questioning which only suggests he is following a qibla somewhere which a party of the people of the book must of been following.

So the people in question and at trial here are not the people of the book but the gentle Arabs.

They were expected to follow the prophet in the direction that was not their own. Which was meant to be a trial for his followers to see if they were going to abandon what was dear and loved by them.

But it was not till later 2:145 that God has assigned the desired qibla back to the prophet as it was made clear that the reason God has allowed the prophet for the time being to follow another qibla(possibly the qibla of some of the people of the book who were praying at that time) only because to test those who were with him.

Also Mohammed can you please make a summary or explain the clear explicit verses first which we have shared with you regarding this topic and then after that it would be better to interpret the rest of the verse in light of the explicit ones.

2:62
3:113-114
5:68
5:43
5:44
5:45
5:47
5:48
5:66
7:159
22:67-69
And many more

Have you read the articles shared and analyzed them?

Peace

45

Islamic Duties / Moon Sighting

« on: June 04, 2019, 04:15:02 PM »

Asalamu 3alykum Dear Moderators, if you may delete my previous post of this topic that would be great as it was not clear. Thank you

Asalamu 3alykum brothers and sisters

As I been searching through the internet I been finding conflicting testimonies from different websites on the moon sighting of the new moon crescent.

For example Saudi Arabia said they called their authorities yesterday June 2, 2019 to start the sighting on June 3, 2019 and also asked anyone of the locals to provide their testimonies. So on June 3, 2019 the officials according to websites and many platforms have concluded that they saw the crescent of the moon.

On other websites such as www.moonsighting.com they show that their is NO sighting from Saudi Arabia and most other countries if not all. "Saudi Arabia:
Not Seen: MCW member Mr Abdul Kadir Mulla from Jeddah reported: No Moon has been sighted in Madina Munawwara on 3rd June."

They also show that for example USA, Canada have NOT seen the moon, however most people if not all I know are celebrating EID tomorrow. Tuesday June 4, 2019.

www.crescentwatch.org is another website that says "All reports thus far have been negative (the moon was not sighted), including ones from numerous highly experienced sighters across Asia, the Middle East, Africa, and South America (all where naked-eye sightings were considered extremely improbable). We are continuing to receive and assess reports now in North America and will post updates here accordingly."


I'm not sure what is going on, but I find it a bit confusing. If the websites are being biased and choosing their own authorities then something is wrong, if they are telling the truth then again something is wrong with the other authorities in other countries. Not sure.

I'm not to sure if those who sight the moon in a era like today should at least try to post a picture of the sighting of the moon if they claim to see it?


From where I am from the people are celebrating Eid tomorrow but the moon seems to be NOT seen according to the websites crescentwatch.com and moonsighting.com. I however went out with my little knowledge of where to look and I did not think I seen anything but again I'm not familiar with the process.

I mentioned this to some friends and it seemed to stir up some controversy which I really don't want to. So might have to fast in secret tomorrow as I don't know why but people take it seriously if you tell them to think.

I wonder if I'm going to have to start sighting the moon for myself and see how the process works.

I guess maybe Ramadan is an individual gathering as everyone should sight the moon for themselves till the end of the month if this is how the world is going to be where some countries seem just to declare it without proof(maybe there is but I have not seen them on English websites) and some countries which seem like they are celebrating the EID seem to show no proof either of the moon crescent and the English websites confirm no sighting yet despite that are still celebrating EID.

2:185(part).... whoever of you witnesses the month shall fast it...

It maybe that every house hold should observe their own moon sighting, which leads me to the thought that why the EID celebration is not stipulated in the Quran. God knows best

It seems like the sighting has turned into politics

Crescentwatch.org

Moonsighting.com

Egypt also seemed to have differances some seen it some did not
http://www.egypttoday.com/Article/6/71179/Moon-sighting-for-Shawwal-When-will-2019-Eid-al-Fitr

Salam