Messages

Then I'm just as confused as Adil I guess!

Good observation Hope. Anyway, this is secondary to my primary concern. What do you think of Muhammad Asad's 'conclusions'? Do you think they are parables or literal?

[whoever of them will follow you]

You can argue that 7.18 refers also to Satan, but the verse explicitly states "whoever of them will follow you, I will certainly fill hell with you all." Do you have any clear verses solely addressed to Satan?

I think Allah created Satan for the sole purpose of tempting man. We can't all get free rides to Heaven. It must be earned through working in the name of God.

Yes, you're right. There was a king in Syria at the time of Solomon named Bar-Haddad. They were enemies though. Does anyone else think this is him?

[LEGENDARY]

Salamun Alaikum,

My brother was reading about Muhammad Asad and his translation. He was shocked to find:

"In this instance, Solomon evidently refers to his own understanding and admiration of nature (cf. 38:31-33 and the corresponding notes) as well as to his loving compassion for the humblest of God's creatures, as a great divine blessing: and this is the Qur'anic moral of the LEGENDARY story of the ant." (Asad, The Message of the Qur'an [Dar Al-Andalus Limited 3 Library Ramp, Gibraltar rpt. 1993], p. 578, fn. 17

"In this as well as in several other passages relating to Solomon, the Qur'an alludes to many POETIC LEGENDS which were associated with his name since early antiquity and had become part and parcel of Judeo-Christian and Arabian lore long before the advent of Islam. Although it is undoubtedly possible to interpret such passages in a 'rationalistic' manner, I do not think that this is really necessary. Because they were so deeply ingrained in the imagination of the people to whom the Qur'an addressed itself in the first instance, these legendary accounts of Solomon's wisdom and magic powers had acquired a cultural reality of their own and were, therefore, eminently suited to serve as a medium for the parabolic exposition of certain ethical truths with which this book is concerned: and so, without denying or confirming their MYTHICAL character, the Qur'an uses them as a foil for the idea that God is the ultimate source of all human power and glory, and that all achievements of human ingenuity, even though they may sometimes border on the miraculous, are but an expression of His transcendental creativity." (Asad, p. 498, fn. 77;

There are about a dozen things of the like Asad states in his translation. Does anyone believe the things he claims. Is he supposed to be a Kafir for rejecting the literal meaning of the verses(i.e. historicity)

Yes, of course. Allah is aware of anything at any time. Allah created Satan for the Sole purpose of testing Man. Only Humans were given free will (Adam and the Apple).
Satan is a machine used to lead the Believers astray. He is not equal to God, nor is there going to be some Cosmic battle at the End Times. I'm not aware of any Verses that say he will burn(correct me if wrong).

But again, Allah knows who is going to Heaven and Hell. So it's sorta confusing.

Yes, thank you for respectfully debating me on this issue.  I don't have any more supporting evidence for my claim, May God give us both more knowledge on this subject.

[gambling]

I understand your sentiments with P. Crone. From a Quranic perspective, I can only offer the following evidence:

1. Sūra 5:90
O you who have believed, indeed, intoxicants, gambling,  stone alters, and divining arrows are but defilement from the work of Satan, so avoid it that you may be successful.

Gambling
-There are no records of Games of Chance recorded as being used in or around the modern city of Mecca. However, in Petra there are many ancient game boards carved in the rocks all around the city.
-At the Second Conference on Nabataean Studies held in Petra, Jordan, October 2002, Dr. Bilāl Khrīsat and Ṭalāl 'Akasheh presented a paper called Gaming Boards from the Nabataean Capital City of Petra: Documentation and Study.
-"Arrows that the Arabs used, and dice that the Persians and Romans used in gambling." (The Meaning and Explanation of the Glorious Qur'ān, Volume 2, Muḥammad Saed 'Abdul-Raḥmān, MSA Publication Ltd., 2007 page 362)

Stone Alters
-Today, in Mecca there is no evidence of idols, neither idol bases nor inscriptions.
-There is, however, the bases of ancient idols and high-place altars on 2 mountains in Petra.

2. Pilgrimage (Hajj and Umrah)
Sura 2:158
Indeed, as-Safa and al-Marwah are among the symbols of Allah . So whoever makes Hajj to the House or performs 'umrah - there is no blame upon him for walking between them. And whoever volunteers good - then indeed, Allah is appreciative and Knowing.

-"Beside the tombs ...gather twice a year to eat a memorial meal. This twice yearly event is born out by a 2nd century AD Nabataean zodiac which portrays Allat, the female goddess of fertility among other Nabataean deities."

Doctor Avraham Negev of the Institute for Advanced Study in Princeton, New Jersey suggests that much of the Arab graffiti found throughout the Negev and southern Jordan was written by people on pilgrimage to Petra. In his detailed study he notes the variety of names that occur in Thamudic, Safaitic, and other early Arabian dialects. (Negev, 1991)

3. Churches
The Quran speaks of protecting Churches, Synagouges and Temples in the Area. Mecca has no evidence of any of these. The cities do have a Christian history.

[truthful]

Salam Joseph,

I read through the pages you asked me too, and a bit ahead as well. I thought this was a bit irrelevant so I broke to a new topic.

On Page 81 of Robinson's book:

In 26. I18 (N56/E 4 7), when Noah is rejected by his people, he implores God:
"fa-'ftah between me and them and rescue me together with the
believers who are with me."
Noah can hardly have required God to grant him a military conquest.
...
It is therefore possible that Muhammad already expected a fath during what Noldeke describes as the second Mecca period. Moreover, in 32.28 (N7o/E75), which on N61deke's reckoning is the first of the late Meccan Suras, Muhammad's opponents ask him
"When will this fath occur if you are truthful?"
...
band of persecuted believers who lived in expectation of a dramatic divine intervention followed by mass conversion.
...
The departure of the Emigrants was not, however, accompanied by anything akin to the flood which drowned the unbelievers in the time of Noah; the earthquake, which struck the people of Thamild (e.g. 7.73-9); or any of the other punishments, which God had meted out to the disbelievers of old. Almost a year and a half passed before the pagans.

The Pagans, similar to the people of Old, wanted a miraculous sign. They did not receive a sign until after they were warned, and persecuted the messenger. The sign must have been something catastrophic if the Quran's prophecies came to pass.

Is it just coincidental that Midian had an enormous earthquake soon after the Quran's propagation?
All records of these polytheist cities disappear after the 7th Century.
And that the entire region is barren today, as you are an eye-witness?

Could this be Allah's sign that he left for us?

Dear Joseph,

Using all 5 points I referred to, and the fact that this City was Um-Ul-Qura, it must have been recognized by other nations and the jewel of Arabia. Modern Mecca was never mentioned in any pre-islamic literature, nor was it's geographic location referred to by the early Greek and Roman historians. They went up and down the Hejaz coast, wrote about hundreds of Arab tribes and cities, but Mecca(nor it's location) was never given any importance/notation. How could it then possibly be the Um-Ul-Qura? Yathrib, on the other hand, has been mentioned since the first century(which was supposedly LESS important).   

In regards your bold points:
- All 3 cities had a vibrant past and were well documented.
- Al-Ula was occupied since at least up to the Abbasid Era. As for Petra, it had an earthquake soon after Islam's spread across Asia(Qaryatayn?). All document's stopped after this period(was after Quran).
-"Verily, Ṣafa and Marwah are among the symbols of Allāh."
The Ka'ba stands exactly between the two mountains. (These mountains are so small that they are included INSIDE the mosque) They are at the ends of the long walkway on the right side, where pilgrims can walk inside between the two rocks that are known today as Ṣafa and Marwa. This description fits Petra perfectly.

You are right to say they passed by those remnants. But, they should have been able to do this 'Day and Night.' This is physically impossible on camels with the modern Mecca, and Yathrib would be hard enough. The Hejaz has some of the world's toughest terrain(Desert, Volcanoes). The Quran tells us they had 2 covenants, which Allah changes to only the Ka'ba. Could this be Al-Ula and Petra? They are close enough and have biblical documentation.

Crone states: "Mecca was a barren place, and barren places do not make natural halts, and least of all when they are found at a short distance from famously green environments. Why should caravans have made a steep descent to the barren lands of  Mecca when they could have stopped at Ta'if?" Taif is well documented.

I said the Quraish are successors to these nations because each chronological story tells the Quraish to look around them and they can see the clear signs of Allah's wrath. It is the strongest argument the Quran makes, and compares with Sodom and Gomorrah.

Yes, but I feel, respectfully, that you are making a theological argument. From the linguistic perspective it appears to me that this word 'Silm' can never mean Peace, so I was wondering how Shabir Ally got to this conclusion, based on the Arabic text. Peace would have to be Salam, not Silm. I don't think Submission is a secondary definition of Silm.

You are right  Thanks, I always wondered about this.

[fee assilmi kaffatan]

Shabir Ally made the interesting claim that 2:208, is referring to Peace, not Submission.

Khan, Pickthall, and Shakir all translate it as Submission. Dr. Ghali and Ahmed Subhy Mansour translate it as Peace.

Ya ayyuha allatheena amanooodkhuloo fee assilmi kaffatan walatattabiAAoo khutuwati ashshaytaniinnahu lakum AAaduwwun mubeen

Can anyone prove that this refers to Peace using Arabic linguistics?

You provided strong evidence that the Sacred Mosque is in Mecca. But on what basis is the modern Mecca, KSA the Mecca of the Quran?

"However, it is accepted that even though there seems to be connection given the proximity of the two verses, that this not incontrovertible evidence that they are part of one location."

As you stated:
1. a location of a Main City which had an established community settlement.
2. We can also deduce that the 'mother tongue' of this town was 'Arabic'
3. Town B is most likely known as 'Yathrib'
4. A powerful community
5. clear evidence (at least in archaeological finds)

This can refer to at least 3 cities prior to the seventh century:
1. Petra (2 Earthquakes: prior and after Islam's spread across Asia) The Sunnat of Allah is the destruction of the towns where the Messengers were rejected.

2. Madi'an Saleh

3. Al-'Ula: 380 km North of Medina. It used to be an important trade centre for the old caravan route.... first led to Babylon passing through Taima and the second route led to Petra and Syria. Al Ula was under controlled by four civilizations namely Didan, Labyan, Maeen and most famous the Nabateans.
Mabiyat archaeological sites occur at 15 km to the south of Al Ula near Mugheira village. Its history goes back to the Umayyad and Abbasid periods. Ruins of buildings, remains of an irregular wall enclosure and pottery shreds can be seen on the site area. The Antiquities Department conducted excavations in 1948-1985 and covered the buildings of A LARGE ISLAMIC CITY.

Doesn't the Quran say that the Quraish were among the descendants, or successors, of the people of 'Ad, Thamud and Midian. The Quraish, according to the Quran, should have been able to SEE the remnants of these nations. This is physically impossible with modern Mecca, so the true Mecca must be North of Yathrib.

[valley of Mecca]

Isn't this all with the presupposition that the Mecca was a physical location at the Prophet's time?
What if later 'Muslims' had that verse re-interpreted so as to lead the true believers away from the real Qibla?

24   And He it is Who hath withheld men's hands from you, and hath withheld your hands from them, in the valley of Mecca, after He had made you victors over them. Allah is Seer of what ye do.   
25   These it was who disbelieved and debarred you from the Inviolable Place of Worship, and debarred the offering from reaching its goal.

The Arabic word for Valley is Wadi. Why is this translated so many different ways? It appears as if Makkah was a stronghold for the disbelievers. All the Quran states about the 'Meccans' is that they prohibited worship and donations from reaching another physical location. There is no evidence that the Sacred Mosque is inside Mecca.

(SI) within [the area of] Makkah
(Khan/Ali)the midst of Makkah
(Pickthall/Shakir)the valley of Mecca
(Ghali)hollow (Literally: the belly, i.e., the midst of makkah) of Makkah

The very first mention of the word "Mecca" appears this year in the Continuatio Byzantia Arabica (Crone-Cook 1977 page 22,171). Before this Mecca did not appear in any literature, nor on any maps of Arabia.

What evidence do we, using the Quran alone, have that the modern Mecca includes the actual Sacred Mosque mentioned in it. Isn't just like traditions passed down. What if it's a long-forgotten city or Jerusalem?