Show Posts

This section allows you to view all posts made by this member. Note that you can only see posts made in areas you currently have access to.


Messages - Wakas

Pages: 1 ... 29 30 [31] 32 33 ... 38
451
General Discussions / Re: Joseph Islam's article on 4:82
« on: July 06, 2013, 05:29:33 AM »
peace Brother Joseph,

Re: http://quransmessage.com/articles/verse%204-82%20FM3.htm

I think there is an error:

Quote: No matter how accurate a source and indeed the source of the Quran remains 'perfect' (i.e. God), it is the infallible mind which interprets the source which causes the variance. Therefore, verse 4:82 remains more of a function of the 'interpreter' than the Quran itself.

I think you meant fallible.


Whilst I found the article interesting, I'm not sure if I agree with your interpretation. According to corpus.quran.com the word in question in 4:82 http://corpus.quran.com/wordmorphology.jsp?location=(4:82:12) is "accusative masculine indefinite (form VIII) verbal noun" and in this specific form occurs 7 times http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=xlf#(4:82:12)

According to my notes verb form 8 is "generally reflexive and, occasionally, passive in meaning" whereas you seem to have taken it as causative, i.e. "‘a cause for disagreement".

1) Can you clarify why you took it as causative?

2) When I inserted your understanding of this word into it's other 6 occurrences it didn't seem to fit well.

3) I also have another issue: if it does mean what you say then I don't particularly see how it is a statement of strength or uniqueness or demonstrates the grandeur of God's Word etc and it is not reasonably falsifiable, i.e. distinguishing between some and many differences is subjective. Perhaps I have not grasped the point you are making.


Please clarify. Thanks.

452
peace brother Optimist,

Thank you for the reply.

Perhaps it would help if you better understand what I mean by the regular/timed salat, as to me, it is obviously a physical act - although I do not like to use that term, as I do not say things like "physical charity" for example. It just sounds odd. See here.

In 4:102 I primarily take "'tadaAAoo / lay down'" (referring to arms) literally, whilst you seem to take it as referring to having them close by or not, not necessarily holding them. Fair enough.

I struggle to envisage an illness/rain that stops one holding a sword for example (or having it close by as you imply) but one can still physically prostrate etc. If you can, fair enough.

I reject your point (2) for the reasons I mention in the article. I'm not sure if you have understood the point however.


Re: morning and evening
I agree that an "all the time" interpretation is possible. That is why I said "seemingly". My main evidence for a minimum of two daily regular/timed salat are not those verses you referenced however.

453
peace brother Joseph,

Thanks for the clarifications. I have added that Lane's Lexicon reference to the article.

Quote
I tackled the primary meaning of 'SJD' as to show humility, submissiveness, to be humbled, show reverence, salute, honour, pay regards, respects etc. Physical prostration is just one method to show this. I also distinguished between two forms of physical prostration in humans. One done in respect, general reverence to other human beings and one done in worship / reverence to God.

Some SJD (reverence, show of humility, submissiveness) do manifest as physical prostrations.  One example in the worship of God is cited in verse 48:29

I personally do not consider 48:29 a clear example of this, but I accept it is possible it refers to physical prostration.

Thanks for the discussion. In my article, I basically have the same conclusion/thoughts as you have expressed.

I hope that my article allows people to weigh up all the evidence, then make an informed decision, as that was the primary purpose of the article. Personally, I found it interesting, as I'm sure others also, that there does seem to be a lack of clear examples demonstrating "sujud" means "physical prostration" in Quran, even though it is used many times referring to humans doing SJD.

454
peace brother Joseph,

Thanks for the quick reply.

Re: your premises
I agree with what you said, however the only thing I'd add is that when it comes to "different meanings depending on context" I have a preference for evidence - what I mean by this is ideally there should be a logical/practical reason why one meaning is chosen rather than another. For example I do not give much weight to reason such as "I like meaning A better than meaning B". I can appreciate that sometimes having such a preference can occur, as there may be no evidence either way, but this should be kept to a minimum.

###

Re: 2)
You never commented on: "If we accept that someone may prostrate physically (nose and forehead on ground) willingly, how can we understand this unwillingly? Does God push people on their faces forcefully so that they fall down on their noses and foreheads unwillingly?"

Please clarify.


Re: 6)
Did you cite the correct verse, i.e. 16:22?

Re: 8 )
Out of curiosity are you aware of a passive verb usage in Quran wherein the doer and receiver are one and the same person? I understand that this would take ages to check, but if you know of an example etc please let me know. I just thought it was a strange usage, hence my request.

Re: 9)
Can you clarify if this is your own opinion on what the shin represents or are you basing it on something?

Re: 12)
Can you clarify that you do not take the SJD in 4:102 to mean prostration as you said
"You have respectfully, yet without warrant, inferred a 'physical prostration'. If we simply allow the primary meaning of the word SJD to remain operative (i.e. SJD = humility, pay respect, honour, salute and humble), then salat can end once the spiritual experience of prayer is completed irrespective of whether or not this means a physical prostration. you do not"
but then later said
"'Fa'idha sajadu' (Then when they have prostrated)".

Do you mean "then when they have paid respect" or similar?

###

If I have understood you correctly, out of all the verse examples I highlighted, you consider none to CLEARLY refer to physical prostration (even though many are referring to humans doing SJD)?


Quote
I hope you do not see it as anything more than two believers attempting to mull over God's messages with sincerity in the midst of a proverbial campfire.

I like to think two akhwi*/brothers, but yes, of course that is how I take it.  :)
*or whatever the dual is.





455
General Discussions / Re: The Prophet's night journey
« on: June 09, 2013, 07:51:43 PM »
peace Irfan,

You raise some good issues. I did a study of this recently and my findings are shown below. Taken from here:

17:1 Glory be to the One who took with/by His servant (at) night from al maSJD al haram ila/to al maSJD al aqsa which We have blessed around* it that We may show him of Our signs. Indeed, He is the Listener, the Seer.
17:2 And We gave Moses the decree/writ and We made it a guidance for the Children of Israel: "Choose no guardian/protector besides Me."
17:3 Progeny whom We carried with Noah, indeed he was a thankful servant.
17:4 And We determined to the Children of Israel in the decree/writ, surely you will cause corruption twice in the earth/land, and you will reach great arrogance.
17:5 So, when came the first promise, We sent against you servants of Ours, possessors of great might, so they breached the midst of the homes, and was a promise fulfilled.
17:6 Then We granted you victory over them, and We reinforced you with wealth and children, and We made you more numerous.
17:7 If you do good, you do good for yourselves, and if you do bad, then it is for it (i.e. yourselves). So when came the last/after promise, to sadden/distress your faces/wills and enter al maSJD just as they entered it the first time, and to destroy what they had overcome/conquered (with) destruction.
17:8 Perhaps your Lord will have mercy on you, and if you revert then so will We**. And We made Hell a gathering place for the rejecters/concealers/ungrateful.
17:9 Indeed, this reading/quran guides to that which is more upright, and it gives glad tidings to the believers who do good work, that for them is a great reward.
*note the often overlooked "blessed AROUND it", not "it" itself but AROUND it.
** the wording of this warning statement implies it is addressing those in opposition at the time of this revelation
   
    In Traditional sources there is an elaborate story behind 17:1, commonly referred to as "the night journey" (isra) and "ascension" (miraj) involving prophet Muhammad being taken from the Sacred Mosque in Mecca to the Farthest Mosque in Jerusalem, but as usual there is variance within these accounts about the details. For example, some say it was a physical transportation, some say spiritual journey or vision/dream. There are many online articles discussing the details and problems surrounding this story. You may wish to research this (e.g. here, or here).
    If understood traditionally as a journey to Al Masjid Al Aqsa in Jerusalem, it should be noted that it was NOT built at the time, thus has been explained away as referring to the area/site, since "masjid" can generically mean "place of SJD" not an actual building. Whilst this is theoretically possible, many still treat it as a proper noun. Interestingly, if we take it as an area, traditionalist commentators often say the whole earth is a "masjid" (based on a traditional hadith) thus why this area is allegedly singled out is unclear, as it would certainly not be the farthest masjid. It is also debatable whether Al Masjid Al Aqsa can truly be described as "blessed around it" when the region is full of conflict/oppression today. Perhaps one could argue this was a reference to the past and/or at the time of revelation only.
    Similarly, it is also debatable whether the mosque Al Masjid Al Haram was built at this time, or even if it was it would have been rudimentary. Most consider it was not built at the time, thus regard it simply referring to the area/site. Again, many still treat it as a proper noun.
    Notably, in the same chapter, in 17:93, the messenger clearly implies he cannot ascend in the heaven/sky and is only a human. Not only does this rule out the physical journey/ascension theory, but implies if he were to ascend physically it would make him other than human which is the very opposite of Quran's message. Also see 6:35. Further, a physical journey has not been described using such terms in AQ elsewhere as far as I am aware, so we can safely rule out the physical journey option.

Who does 17:1 refer to?
    It can realistically only be Moses or Muhammad. Moses because he is mentioned in the next verse and it begins with "wa/and" implying a link to what was said previously. Muhammad because when AQ uses 3rd person singular delivery with the term "abd/servant" and does not explicitly name the abd addressed, it always or strongly points to the messenger of Quran, i.e. prophet Muhammad. Please see all occurrences here: Our abd - 2:23, 8:41, His abd - 18:1, 25:1, 39:36, 53:10, 57:9, God's abd - 72:19. Note how the start of the very next chapter, 18, and also 25 begin in a similar manner to 17. This weighs 17:1 in favour of referring to prophet Muhammad.
    It is clear from 17:1 the reason given for taking His servant from A to B was to be shown some of God's signs/ayat. Hence a possible link to Moses in 17:2 with "and We gave Moses the decree/writ", however if so, this would make this the odd one out, as when AQ discusses revelation it does not use these terms nor describe anything similar. Unless a link and explanation can be found of course. Thus, if anything, 17:1 seems to imply some other kind of signs/ayat.
    AMAH is NEVER mentioned along with Moses elsewhere in AQ, and in fact is exclusively mentioned along with the messenger of Quran. Taking these points into account, this weighs 17:1 significantly in favour of referring to prophet Muhammad.

    The use of "bi" and "ila" in 17:1 suggest God took with/by His servant from A to B. Since we have ruled out a physical journey, this only leaves a spiritual journey and/or vision/dream or some other understanding. The use of "night" may indicate during sleep, i.e. a dream/vision.
    Interestingly, the context for 17:7 is established by the dual mention of "masjid" in 17:1, and it just so happens to mention "enter al maSJD just as they entered it the first time", implying a minimum of two "masjid" are of relevance - coincidence? If so, what is it referring to? As stated in part 2 of this series on SuJuD, the most prominently known "AL maSJD" in AQ is AMAH, thus in terms of probability, would likely refer to that.
    The only times the words "enter/dKhl" and "maSJD" occur side-by-side are in 17:5 "enter al maSJD" and 48:27 "enter AMAH" - and it just so happens that in 48:27 it states "...God has confirmed the vision (al ru'ya) of His messenger with truth/reality, surely you will enter AMAH..." giving us a link to a vision/dream - coincidence? Perhaps, but later in chapter 17, in 17:60 it says:

17:59 ...and We sent to Thamud the camel as a visible sign, but they wronged her. And We do not send the signs/ayat except as a warning.
17:60 And when We said to thee: "Your Lord has encompassed the people." And We did not make the vision (al ru'ya) that We showed* thee except as a trial for the people, and the accursed tree** in the quran/reading. And We warn them, but it only increases their transgression.
*note how "show" (imperfect tense) in 17:1, and "showed" (perfect tense) in 17:60, i.e. an action done/completed by 17:60. The same word (arayna) is used in both cases, which is the same root as ru'ya/vision.
** see 37:62-66

    Note that even though the vision was shown to thee (singular, i.e. the messenger) it is a fit'na/trial for the people, meaning that it MUST have been relayed to them. This is compounded by the theme recurrent of sending the signs/ayat as a warning and the use of "We warn them / make them fearful...". According to the traditional explanations of 17:60 (which they link to 17:1), their source material is primarily the traditional hadith. For those following a Quran based islam, the strong preference is to have a self-contained explanation within AQ itself. If so, where is this vision explained?
    Furthermore, in AQ ru'ya/vision/dream is used in only three other instances, that is for Joseph (12:5, 12:100), the King (12:43) and Abraham (37:102), and it means dream/vision in ALL cases, specifically a vision foretelling a future occurrence/event, and in ALL instances the ru'ya/vision is explained. IF 17:60 and 48:27 are unexplained, then they would be the odd ones out in AQ, which would be highly unusual.
    17:60 also tells us the reason for the vision and that is it was a fit'na/trial for the people. This would serve to explain the whole content of chapter 17, which is a series of stories about messengership, and warnings, reasons for rejection, destruction of rejecting/deviant communities, paradigm shifts and God's will coming to pass. Hence likely why 17:2 uses "Choose no guardian/protector besides Me". Is this another coincidence? As a side note, in 17:60 it says it increases their transgression, possibly implying it may get worse before it gets better for believers.
    Thus, any understanding of AMAH should take these issues into account and be able to explain them. If we link these "coincidences" together, we have shown that 17:1 most likely refers to the messenger of Quran, there is an association between 17:1, 17:7, 17:60 and 48:27, and it is likely regarding a vision foretelling a future occurrence which will be blessed around, involving overcoming the opposition, which would serve as a warning/trial for such people, and is fulfilled upon entering AMAH securing, relieving your chiefs, restraining not fearing with a victory near (see 48:27 analysis). If so, is there an explanation of AMAH that can provide a fit?
    IF we take 'al masjid al haram' as "the inviolable time of SJD/acknowledgement" (i.e. the term referring to the time-period/event of the 'inviolable months') and 'al masjid al aqsa' as "the farthest/remotest time of SJD/acknowledgement" (implying a time of SJD/acknowledgement in the future), this would slot in perfectly with all that has been discussed previously. Around this future time is blessed, e.g. the believers have grown in numbers/power/authority, have overcome etc and a foretelling of this would serve as a warning/trial for the opposing people, and is completed upon entering AMAH, with a victory near. Much of AQ may have to be read to appreciate this progression in success for the believers. By "inviolable months" I am referring to "al ashhur al hurum" which are mentioned in 2:194, 2:217, 5:2, 5:97, 9:5 and refer to a time-period in which al hajj (the symposium/feast) is held, various regulations are in place etc. Please read these occurrences to familiarise yourself with this subject.
    Note how ru'ya/vision is a foretelling of a future occurrence/event, and how the above fits with our chosen meaning of maSJD and AMAH. In other words, maSJD, AMAH and 'al masjid al aqsa' must be a reference to a time-period. So we can say the prophet Muhammad experienced the vision and relayed revelation of chapter 17 during AMAH. Note that AMAH (i.e. the term referring to the time-period/event of the inviolable months) would have been a regular, or semi-regular, occurrence, e.g. every year perhaps. This is also suggested by AQ, e.g. 9:28, 28:27.
    It is interesting to note how traditional commentators explain away some points, e.g. the vision referred to in 17:60 (which they link to 17:1) is described as a "trial/ordeal/fit'na for the people" so they say this is because: Al Jalalayn (altafsir.com) "since they denied it and some of them [even] apostatised when he [the Prophet] informed them of it", Ibn Kathir (qtafsir.com) implies that since the prophet saw it with his physical eyes, rather than a dream, that is why, but unfortunately for him this contradicts 17:93. In my view, their explanations are unsatisfactory and certainly not based on AQ. They also do not seem to explain why it is placed in the context of a warning. The traditional story of isra and miraj does not come across as a warning, hence perhaps the silence on this point. To make things clearer, a translation of the verses is now shown below:

17:1 Glory be to the One who took with/by His servant (at) night from the inviolable time of SJD/acknowledgement to the farthest/remotest time of SJD/acknowledgement which We have blessed around it that We may show him of Our signs. Indeed, He is the Listener, the Seer.

17:7 If you do good, you do good for yourselves, and if you do bad, then it is for it (i.e. yourselves). So when came the last/after promise, to sadden/distress your faces/wills and enter THE time of SJD/acknowledgement just as they* entered it** the first time, and to destroy what they had overcome/conquered (with) destruction.
*i.e. Our servants, but this time they would be the present believers and perhaps their allies.
** THE maSJD, i.e. al masjid al haram / the inviolable time of SJD/acknowledgement, which would occur regularly, e.g. yearly.

    Some may claim that this understanding contradicts several passages in AQ in which the prophet Muhammad clearly states he does not know the future. However there is no contradiction, as none knows the future, including Muhammad (5:109, 6:50, 7:188, 10:20, 18:110, 27:65, 46:9, 81:24). Only God knows the future and this knowledge can be attained only through divine revelations/signs (3:44, 3:179, 11:49, 12:102, 30:2, 72:26-28). The messenger only follows what is inspired/revealed to him, and this particular vision is relayed in the revelation itself. This is also suggested when the vision is fulfilled in 48:27 "...He knew what you did not know...". Or some may claim the switch in addressee in 17:7 is problematic, however this is fairly common in AQ, i.e. switching from past to present audience etc, e.g. see 2:142. This is commonly known as "iltifaat" (see here).
    An interesting observation is that the traditional explanations of 48:27 follow a basic outline to what was found above, see Asad's note 38 on 48:27 (my insertion in bold): "Shortly before the expedition which ended at Hudaybiyyah, the Prophet had a dream in which he saw himself and his followers entering Mecca (read: al masjid al haram) as pilgrims. This dream-vision was destined to be fulfilled a year later, in 7 H., when the Muslims were able to perform their first peaceful pilgrimage to the Holy City (read: al masjid al haram)". In other words, a successful entering of AMAH by the believers at some point in the future. Surprisingly, most mainstream traditional commentators do not link the vision of 48:27 to chapter 17. To them, the vision of 48:27 is not explained in AQ. If my findings are correct, then this would imply somewhere along the way the chapter 17 vision was disassociated from the 48:27 vision, and the former distorted for their own ends. For example, in this case, a fixing of the 5-daily salat. For those who do not know, according to tradition, it was only after the alleged isra and miraj did a fix of 5-daily salat come into observance, as prior to this it was 2-daily for the mumineen/believers (click: further reading).
    It is strongly recommend to re-read the analysis above and ponder over the findings presented here. Also try to insert 'act/institution/etc of SJD' to see if it works. I personally could not make much sense of these possible understandings in this instance.

456
peace Joseph, all,

I recently compiled a brief list of Qs from my original article, to allow readers to more easily go through the issues raised in the article.

#####

From here.

For those who consider "sujud" to mean "physical prostration":

1) Re: SJD to/for adam/mankind - 2:34, 7:11-12, 15:29-32, 17:61, 18:50, 20:116, 38:72-76
Issue: if taken as a commonly understood physical prostration, it seems odd that angels/controllers or iblees (made of 'smokeless fire') could do this in a defined physical visible form, but it is possible - what is your view?

2) Re: 22:18, 55:6 - SJD to/for God who is in the heavens/earth, and the sun/moon/stars/mountains/trees/creatures and many of the people
13:15 ...to/for God SJD who is in the heavens and the earth, willingly and unwillingly, and their shadows in the mornings and late-afternoons.
Issue: Contextually implying that the same SJD is done by the shadows as well as who is in the heavens/earth, meaning it is unlikely for it to mean prostrate here - what is the "sujud" of inanimate objects?
If we accept that someone may prostrate physically (nose and forehead on ground) willingly, how can we understand this unwillingly? Does God push people on their faces forcefully so that they fall down on their noses and foreheads unwillingly?

3) Re: 16:48-50 Can they not look to a thing God created? Its shadow turns to the right and the left, SuJaD to/for God and/while they are humble.
Issues: If we take the above as prostrations/prostrating (as some translations do), then this would clearly imply that no matter which direction the shadow faces it is STILL prostrating to/for God, i.e. God is everywhere, which links with "to God belongs the east and west so wherever you turn there is God's face/regard", see 2:115. This strongly and clearly implies direction is irrelevant here - what is your view on this?
Since SJD is in the Arabic plural (more than two) we can infer that each and every point in the shadow's movement is a SJD. How is it showing this SJD?

4) Re: 27:24 "And I found her and her people SJuD to/for the sun instead of God! And the devil had made their works/deeds appear good to them, so averting/hindering them from the path, so they are not guided."
27:25 "Will they not SJuD to/for God who brings out what is hidden in the heavens and the Earth, and He knows what you hide and what you declare?"
Issues: Note it says the hoopoe "found" (wajad) them, not "saw" (raayt) them as in Joseph's dream in which he saw the moon/sun/planets SJD to/for him. Of course, moon/sun/planets do not physically prostrate as humans do, so what Joseph saw was something else - how were the sun/moon/planets giving sujud to Joseph?
So let us assume it means a traditional prostration in 27:24, how can one identify whom the prostration is done to?

5) Re: 84:21-22 And when the Quran/reading is recited to them, they do not SJuD. No, those who have rejected/concealed are denying.
Issue: Interestingly, if sujud=prostration here then this implies God wishes the audience to not only accept what is said but ALSO get down on their hands and knees and prostrate physically (to whom/what?). This seems unusual. What is your understanding of this?

6) Re: 48:29 Muhammad is the messenger of God, and those who are with him are stern against the concealers/rejecters/ingrates, but merciful between themselves. You see them inclining/humbling and SuJaD, seeking bounty from God and pleasure/approval. Their distinction is in their faces/attentions/considerations/wills/purposes, from the trace/teaching/influence of the SuJuD.
Issues: Perhaps the majority of people would not have a trace of prostration on their face from physically prostrating in prayer for example, even if it was done many times per day, so this understanding, whilst superficially plausible, actually falls short - what is your view?
It should be noted that in the prior context, 48:25, it clearly implies some believers were unknown/unrecognisable, which makes it even more unlikely it is referring to a physical mark on one's face - response?

7) Re: 2:58, 4:154, 7:161 ...enter the gate SuJuD
Issue: Clearly they cannot enter the gate prostrating - response?

8 ) Re: Re: 7:120, 20:70, 26:46
20:70 Then the magicians were cast* SuJaD. They said: "We believe in the Lord of Aaron and Moses."
*Arabic: uL'QiYa is in the passive perfect form, meaning the object (i.e. magicians) received the action expressed in the verb, an action done/completed upon them. Using cross-reference the most likely meaning of this word is "cast" and is a likely play on words due to the casting done in the previous context.
Issues: IF it is translated as physically thrown/cast down (as done in most translations), since it is passive, then one must ask who/what physically threw them down? The answer is of course nothing/no-one, they did it themselves, thus a physical throwing/casting interpretation becomes illogical. To negate this point, an example similar to this in AQ using another passive verb would have to be cited.
Further, looking at the following verses, is it likely they made a statement whilst physically prostrating on the ground? - yes/no/unsure

9) Re: 68:42-43 The day the shin shall be exposed/uncovered/removed, and they will be called to the SuJuD but they will not be able. Their looks/eyes humbled/lowered, humiliation will cover them. And indeed they were called to the SuJuD while they were sound/well.
Issue: It should be noted that having one's shin removed is unlikely to prevent one from doing a physical prostration, hence some translators claiming they will be unable to prostrate simply due to their shame, but if this is the case, the obvious question becomes: why mention a shin at all? - response?

10) Re: 17:107-109 Say: "Believe in it or do not believe in it. Those who have been given the knowledge before it, when it is recited to them, they fall to their chins SuJaD."
Issue: do you take it as a physical prostration to the chin or not, or something else?

11) Re: 84:20-22 So what is the matter with them that they do not believe? And when the quran/reading is being recited to them, they do not SJuD. No, those who rejected/concealed are denying.
32:15 Only they believe in Our signs whom when they are reminded by them, they fall SuJaD, and glorify with praise of their Lord, and they are not arrogant.
Issue: this clearly suggests that whenever Quran is recited the audience should physically prostrate - what is your view?

12) Re: 4:102 ...and thou uphold/establish the salat/bond for/to them, then let a group from among them stand/uphold//establish with thee and let them bring their weapons; then when they have SaJaD then let them be behind you (plural)...
Issues:
---it would imply that salat ends upon SJD, but if salat=prayer and SJD=prostration here, then we know traditional Muslim prayer has at least two prostrations per unit of prayer, not one, thus the verse by itself is not clear or does not make sense. The only way for it to make some sense would be to say traditional Muslim prayer normally consists of two prostrations, and since it is during wartime this can be reduced to one prostration. There is no such thing as a unit of prayer according to The Quran, nor do traditional Muslims do it in this manner (i.e. prayer does not end with prostration), but this explanation is just to show what sense could be made of this verse according to the traditional understanding.
---it implies that one must take AND hold their weapons/goods with them (by use of 'tadaAAoo / lay down', later in the verse), but if it is understood as traditional Muslim prayer then physically bowing, kneeling and prostrating like this would be impractical and somewhat dangerous, e.g. prostrating with swords!
---it says if impeded by rain or illness then one can lay down weapons but does not say anything about being excluded from prostrating. So the obvious question becomes what kind of rain/illness would prevent one from carrying weapons yet allow one to physically prostrate? It would seem there is no easy answer to this problem.
---We are also left with another problem, because if we accept that the regular/timed salat involves recitation of AQ which is strongly evidenced by AQ itself, and agreed upon by almost all [see 2:43-45, 4:103, 5:12-13, 7:169-170, 8:2-3, 19:58-59, 29:45, 31:2-7, 33:33-34, 17:78], then we know we are commanded to SJD when it is relayed to us [84:20-22, 19:58, 32:15], but if we were to do this in the regular/timed salat and we know salat ends with SJD according to 4:102 then it would last less than 20 seconds!
Views on these 4 issues?



457
peace,

Thank you for the reply.

Can you please point out to me another event during the prophet's lifetime where angels are alleged to have performed tasks?

You may find the following interesting:

#####


fa idriboo fawqa al-aAAnaqi wa idriboo minhum kulla bananin = so strike above/over the necks, and strike from them every/each finger/extremity.
[8:12]

Some use "smite". Translators are divided when it comes to the issue of who is being addressed by this command, even though the verse itself clearly states who is being addressed at the start, and that is the angels/controllers. In terms of what is more likely, it should be noted that this verse is likely addressed to the controllers than to the believers, due to the Arabic construction (i.e. no obvious break in addressee throughout and the first "fa" refers to the controllers, thus the second "fa" most likely does also) and it is in the imperative mood, meaning it is a command to be followed. Thus, it is impractical and illogical to command all believers when in battle to strike above/over the necks and each/every finger from the enemy. Especially since there is no need for doing both! Therefore it more likely refers to the controllers, as we shall now examine:

When your Lord inspires* to the angels/controllers** “I am with you so keep firm those who believed. I shall cast terror into the hearts/minds*** of those who reject; so strike above/over the necks, and strike from them every/each finger/extremity.” [8:12]

*imperfect tense, i.e. an action in the process of being done.
**angels is better translated as controllers, i.e. forces in control of certain functions/laws. There are some controllers we know about, e.g. those found in nature: F=ma, E=mc² etc. and some we do not know about.
 ***qalb is often used like the English word "heart", meaning the physical organ, but more often for the locus of feelings/intuitions etc.

The verse seems to imply then: God will instil/cast terror into the heart/minds of those who reject, and then nature's forces take their course, resulting in affecting anything above the neck, e.g. the throat/mind/thoughts/senses/breathing and limbs/fingers of the rejecters, i.e. likely causing impairment of their performance. Instilling a sense of terror/fear in someone often results in their mind/thoughts/senses being affected/paralysed, and often results in trembling/shaking, especially transferring to the hands, which would likely result in weak fighting skills (swordsmanship or accuracy of arrows) when in battle. It is also interesting to note that when someone is fearful or anxious/nervous, their throat often becomes dry and precipitates an involuntary gulp reaction, i.e. a manifestation of fear/anxiety. Physical manifestations of anxiety: trouble concentrating, feeling like your mind's gone blank, dizziness, shortness of breath, muscle tension, fatigue, headaches (source).

The above understanding may also help clarify the confusion some translators have about 8:17 on who really did the defeating and who really did the casting (Arabic: rama, root: Ra-Miim-Ya). As it likely refers to the use of "cast" (Arabic: olqee, root: Lam-Qaf-Ya) done by God in 8:12. Also see 33:26 for comparison. Interestingly, if we take "rama" to mean "throw or cast" as in arrows or pebbles in 8:17 as done by some translators, then obviously the believers did not strike above the necks and each finger, making this interpretation even less likely. As is common, there are conflicting accounts between the traditional tafsirs on 8:17 and what was thrown, e.g. Asbab Al-Nuzul by Al-Wahidi (arrow), and Tafsir al-Jalalayn (pebbles), and Tanwîr al-Miqbâs min Tafsîr Ibn ‘Abbâs (dust). See M.Asad's note on 8:17 which mentions several possible explanations.
Interestingly, some traditional interpretations take 8:12 to mean the "angels" literally struck off the necks in battle (but neglect to mention the fingers!), but if this was the case, then there would be little need for 8:17 to re-affirm who really did the defeating, i.e. God, as it would be rather obvious. To resolve this problem, some say just as the believers were to strike the necks with their swords the heads of the enemy would fall off, and this was the angels at work! It is a fanciful explanation, but again, they neglect to mention the fingers, or the logic of this application. Thus, the division amongst translators as to whom the command refers is likely related to their misunderstanding of DRB, hence their awkward explanations.

To conclude, 8:12 is addressed to the controllers, and DRB does not mean a literal/physical "strike" e.g. by sword, as is commonly understood, unless taken metaphorically. Thus, may be better rendered as "put forth" or "put into commotion" in these two occurrences.

458
Islamic Duties / Re: Regarding Maghrib Salah as per verse 17:78
« on: June 02, 2013, 04:12:53 AM »
To clarify, "salat" is singular in 17:78.

459
Islamic Duties / Re: On Wudhu
« on: May 30, 2013, 02:16:02 AM »
peace,

In addition, the Arabic word used in the verses is "al ghaiti" which literally means "hole in the ground", i.e. old style toilet. Thus, it is unlikely to include flatulence unless it is implied that people made a hole in the ground when emitting such.

460
Prophets and Messengers / Re: Virgin Birth of Prophet Jesus PBUH
« on: May 15, 2013, 02:04:45 AM »
Of course. That does not negate what I said however.

461
salaam Bassam,

Quote
Seeing that interpretations of the Qur'an can differ and one can't clearly show the other to be wrong, the central theme of Quran Onlyism fails.


Traditional Muslims recognize that not all of scripture is literally 100% clear, while Qur'anists make it appear as if that is the case.

Is differences of opinion are possible, then isn't that a tacit admission that not all of the Qur'an is clear?


It seems to me you are claiming things about the "Quran-centric" position that are not true.

Please clarify, are you implying:

1) Those who advocate "Quran-centric" or "Quran-only" claim 100% of Quran is clear and there is only one interpretation possible for every verse?

If so, please state who said this, with link. Thanks.

2) Are you aware of verses such as 3:7, 3:159, 39:18, 42:38 and 58:11?

If so, can you tell us if they allow for the possibility of variance of opinion with regards to dealing with matters. Yes/No/Unsure.

462
Prophets and Messengers / Re: Virgin Birth of Prophet Jesus PBUH
« on: May 13, 2013, 09:30:33 PM »
salaam,

What I am saying is judging by the Quran verses it seems to allow for the possibility that Mary was a hermaphrodite/intersex. Such people can have BOTH sex chromosomes, i.e. X and Y, e.g. XXY, when a non-intersex female only has XX, thus cannot produce a male baby (e.g. Jesus) by herself.

normal:
female: XX (eggs are X)
male: XY (sperm are X or Y, thus the male determines sex of baby)
intersex: variable, e.g. XXY (egg can theoretically have both X and Y, i.e. could be XX, XY, X, defective etc)


If so, then "virgin birth" is theoretically possible according to science. Please read the links I provided.

463
I recommend also reading:

Misconception: Islam and The Quran orders hands to be cut off for theft

The verse in question will be given then a discussion will be presented. It should be noted that like all punishments relating to members of a society, they are only enforceable if such a society is governed by the laws of The Quran. In such a society, it is a requirement for believers to provide for those in need [2:177, 2:215, 2:219, 5:89, 59:7].

The male thief, and the female thief, you shall mark, cut, or cut-off their hands/means as a recompense for what they earned, and to serve as a deterrent from God. God is Noble, Wise. Whoever repents after his wrongdoing and makes amends, then God will relent on him. Truly, God is Forgiving, Merciful. [5:38-39]

The above verses are commonly translated to mean physical cutting off the thief's hand or hands, however whilst this understanding is a theoretical possibility, when all the information is reviewed it is only one of several possibilities, hence the above translation. Firstly, it should be noted that the verse makes clear whoever commits theft but repents after and makes amends, then this is acceptable to God, thus no punishment can be administered in this case. This of course would only apply to those who do this before they have to be tried and found guilty. To prove this, see the verse below in which being punished is contrasted to relenting:

There are some who await God's decree whether He will punish them or relent on them. God is All Knower, All Wise. [9:106]

And how repenting and making amends shows a true repentance, thus reinforces the notion that a true/sincere repentance is accepted:

And whoever repents and takes corrective action, certainly he turns toward God with true repentance. [25:71]

The Arabic word translated as "cut" in 5:38 is "iqtaa" and occurs 14 other times in the same verb form (QaTaA) in The Quran, and with the exception of 59:5 and possibly 69:46 all other occurrences mean the non-physical or metaphorical action of "cutting off relationship" or "ending" [2:27, 3:127, 6:45, 7:72, 8:7, 9:121, 13:25, 15:66, 22:15, 27:32, 29:29, 56:33].

The derivatives that are read in the 2nd verb form (QaTTaA) occur 17 times. This form, which expresses intensity or frequency of the action, is used both to mean physical cutting off [5:33, 7:124, 20:71, 26:49, 13:31] and metaphorical cutting off [2:166, 6:94, 7:160, 7:167, 9:110, 47:15, 47:22, 21:93, 22:19, 23:53] as well as physically cutting/marking [12:31, 12:50]. It is interesting to note that even though 12:31 uses the more intensive verb form and both "cut" and "hands" together, it does not mean "cut off". The less intensive form is used in 5:38.

Secondly, the Arabic word for "hands" (aydi) is often used in The Quran in a metaphorical/metonymical manner [some examples are 2:195, 2:237, 3:3, 3:73, 5:64, 6:93, 8:70, 9:29, 23:88, 28:47, 30:36, 38:45, 48:10, 48:24, 111:1], and often has a meaning of power/means. It should also be noted that this word is in the Arabic plural meaning 3 or more hands, whilst only two people are referenced: the male and the female thief. Some have commented that this plural usage causes problems for the common interpretation of hand cutting.

Thus, it is possible to understand the punishment for thieves in three alternative ways, (1) cutting off their hands, or (2) cutting or marking their hands, or (3) cutting their means to steal, or cutting their hands from committing the crime. It is up to the society to choose one of these meanings or a combination of them depending on the severity of the crime and their ability to enforce the penalty.

It should be said however that the only working example given in The Quran of theft and its punishment is in the story of Joseph, in which option 3 is done by detaining the one guilty of theft, so that they can work to repay/compensate for the theft.

They said, "By God, you know we did not come to cause corruption in the land, and we are no thieves!"
He said, "What shall be its recompense, if you are not truthful?"
They said, "Its recompense is that he who has it in his bag, then he is its recompense. Like that do we recompense the wrongdoers."
[12:73-75]

Furthermore, 12:79 makes it clear that Joseph (described in 6:84 as one of the guided and a good doer) was acting in accordance with God's law in detaining only the one guilty of theft:

Joseph said: “God forbid that we would detain anyone except he whom we found our belongings with. Indeed, we would then be wrong doers.” [12:79]

Thus, one possible meaning of 5:38 is to apply it in the manner provided by Joseph's example.

One other potential problem is created if 5:38 means to physically cut off the hand or hands of the thief, when we consider what were to happen if a person had no hands or had been punished before hence had no more hands to cut/mark or cut off.
Also, when lashes are given as punishment for proven adultery, The Quran states not to let pity/compassion prevent you from carrying out such a punishment [24:2], but it says no such thing for the alleged hand cutting-off verse, when many consider this punishment to be worse. This adds to the possibility that it should not be taken to mean this.

Lastly, whatever interpretation is chosen, it is important to keep in mind the recurring theme of equivalence in The Quran, thus the punishment should be proportionate to the crime:

And those who, when gross injustice befalls them, they seek justice. The recompense for a crime shall be its equivalence, but whoever forgives and makes right, then his reward is upon God. He does not like the wrongdoers. [42:40]

To conclude, when all the above information is taken into account, it is clear that to physically cut off the hand or hands of the thief is not the only possible understanding and taking into account the law of equivalence would perhaps only be reserved for significant theft which led to harming others, hence harming the perpetrator. If a Muslim in authority, like Joseph was, were to apply the punishment for theft like Joseph did, then they would be following the example of one of the guided and a good doer, as stated by The Quran.


464
Prophets and Messengers / Re: Virgin Birth of Prophet Jesus PBUH
« on: May 08, 2013, 05:18:46 AM »
salaam Sardar,

The most common view is that Isa/Jesus was a "virgin birth". Based on my own studies of Quran my view is similar but perhaps with a possible explanation from Quran itself, consider the following:

In terms of the "miraculous" nature, there is some weighting that Mary was hermaphrodite/intersex. This is mainly based on:

So when she delivered she said: "My Lord, I have delivered a female," and God is fully aware of what she delivered, "And the male is not like the female, and I have named her Mary, and I seek refuge for her and her progeny with You from the outcast devil." [3:36]

Also Mary, the daughter of Imran, who maintained her chastity. So We blew into him/it (fee hi) from Our Spirit, and she believed in the words of her Lord and His Scripture; and she was of those who were dutiful. [66:12]

And the one who protected her chastity, so We blew into her (fee ha) from Our Spirit, and We made her and her son a sign for the worlds. [21:91]

hi = him/it
ha = her

It would still have required a very unique event, but Mary being hermaphrodite/intersex would explain it somewhat. This is my current view.

#####


Background reading:
For example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/001669.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex

Quote
True Gonadal Intersex. Here the person must have both ovarian and testicular tissue. This may be in the same gonad (an ovotestis), or the person might have one ovary and one testis. The person may have XX chromosomes, XY chromosomes, or both. The external genitals may be ambiguous or may appear to be female or male. This condition used to be called true hermaphroditism. In most people with true gonadal intersex, the underlying cause is unknown, although in some animal studies it has been linked to exposure to common agricultural pesticides.

Complex or Undetermined Intersex Disorders of Sexual Development. Many chromosome configurations other than simple 46, XX or 46, XY can result in disorders of sex development. These include 45, XO (only one X chromosome), and 47, XXY, 47, XXX -- both cases have an extra sex chromosome, either an X or a Y. These disorders do not result in an intersex condition where there is discrepancy between internal and external genitalia. However, there may be problems with sex hormone levels, overall sexual development, and altered numbers of sex chromosomes.

Quote:
An individual that produces exclusively large gametes is female, and one that produces exclusively small gametes is male. An individual that produces both types of gametes is a hermaphrodite; in some cases hermaphrodites are able to self-fertilize and produce offspring on their own, without a second organism.


465
General Discussions / Re: Who Determines What is Absurd?
« on: May 08, 2013, 05:12:50 AM »
salaam Bassam,

But whose subjection opinion is the correct one when it comes to determining what is absurd?

The Quran is the criterion. Here is a short list:

Quote
What does The Quran say?

The following is a brief list taken directly from The Quran on how to process information, read, study and understand it:

16:98 - seek God's spiritual aid, away from the forces of satan/opposition (e.g. emotional instability, personal desire, self-delusion, arrogance, prejudice, deviation).
3:7 - ground oneself in solid principles, maintain sincerity.
6:56, 13:37, 30:29, 42:14-15 - be wary of following desires as opposed to following God's revelation.
3:195, 4:135, 5:8, 8:61, 28:54, 42:40 - remain true to its principles of justice, equivalence, fairness, compassion, opting for the good/better response etc.
6:114, 12:111, 15:90-91, 17:89, 16:89, 18:54, 39:27 - try to utilise and appreciate its complete system of concepts.
4:82 - anything from God will not have contradiction/inconsistency/variance. This also applies to our understanding as well. If we formulate a correct interpretation of The Quran, we will find that everything falls into place. This is one of the most crucial criteria.
5:101, 20:114, 25:32, 73:20, 75:17 - do not rush our learning, read what is easy of it, gradually build knowledge and acceptance to strengthen one's heart, and ask God to increase our knowledge.
73:4-5 - in order to receive a weighty or profound word or saying, we need to arrange the likenesses in The Quran, e.g. cross-reference concepts/words/topics.
21:10, 30:30, 41:53, 51:20-21  - its information and teachings should map to our reality (within our psyche, experience and to the furthest horizons). All signs, internal and external can point to the truth of it and act as a verification mechanism.
29:20, 3:137, 3:190-191, 45:3-4 - knowledge of archaeology/biology/physics/history/sciences/philosophy etc will all help to better understand it.
6:75-79, 21:57-67, 36:78-79, 21:22, 23:91, 2:258, 12:26-27, 22:5-6, 2:260 - promotes logical thinking.
2:269, 8:22 - strong affinity towards use of wisdom and reason.
49:6, 45:24, 6:116, 53:28, 2:111, 21:24 - disapproves of conjecture/guesswork and promotes examination of evidence.
34:46, 6:50, 2:219, 3:191, 10:24, 16:44, 30:21 - shows the importance of reflection, to deeply consider/think.
47:24, 23:68 - "tadabbur" means to ponder over something giving careful consideration to its consequences.
41:44 - language is not a barrier, belief/acceptance of it will help understanding.
25:33, 17:41 - it contains the best response/explanation.
39:18, 42:38 - listen and consider other views and follow what is best of them.
6:116, 12:106 - majority opinion can be baseless.
2:2, 3:138, 10:37 - a guide for the god-conscious/forethoughtful, there is no doubt in it, thus understandings which raise doubt about it must be carefully reviewed.
17:45-46 - to not believe in the hereafter can act as a barrier to its understanding.
12:3, 18:54, 17:89, 7:176, 12:111 - look to its internal examples, stories within it give us lessons, it is a clarification for all things.
2:170, 7:28, 6:112, 7:70, 26:74, 43:23 - advised not to blindly follow the teachings of our ancestors.
17:36, 39:9 - seek knowledge, verify, use your God-given senses.
25:1, 2:185, 6:114-115 - it is the criterion with which to determine/judge.
7:204, 9:122, 6:104-105 - give it full attention, focus, spend time studying it.
19:76 - it increases guidance for the guided, i.e. those who continuously turn towards, seek it and follow it.
22:46, 7:179 - open your heart and mind.
13:17 - any interpretation must always be understood in a way that is focused on benefiting mankind and our development.
15:1, 17:82, 36:2, 2:97, 45:20, 10:57, 56:77, 85:21 - any understanding should reflect its attributes, such as: wisdom, mercy, healing, noble, glad tidings, blessing, clear etc.
17:9 - guides to what is straight/upright/establishing.
20:2 - it has not been sent to make us suffer unnecessarily, thus any interpretation should bear this in mind.
22:54, 34:37 - those closest are those who believe and do good works, implying god-consciousness/righteousness and understanding could go hand in hand.
56:79 - purity of mind/heart will grasp it. Work on this aspect of oneself as you seek guidance.
3:79, 75:18 - apply what you learn/know.
39:27-29 - variance rejected, no crookedness, one consistent source is the preference.
4:87, 31:6 39:23, 77:50 - stick with a solid/proven source, not a baseless narration/hadith. The Quran is the best, most truthful and only obligatory hadith.

Pages: 1 ... 29 30 [31] 32 33 ... 38