Messages

496

General Discussions / Re: 5:55

« on: October 17, 2012, 03:02:24 AM »

w/salaam,

Ahh, I never noticed that. I would assume it is determined by what is said in the verse, however I am not sure how accurate the corpus tagging is with regard to that. There are many other examples according to corpus, e.g.

http://corpus.quran.com/wordmorphology.jsp?location=(2:8:9)

http://corpus.quran.com/wordmorphology.jsp?location=(8:5:7)

http://corpus.quran.com/wordmorphology.jsp?location=(6:161:13)

http://corpus.quran.com/wordmorphology.jsp?location=(3:65:7)

http://corpus.quran.com/wordmorphology.jsp?location=(9:56:5)

etc etc.

Corpus seems to suggest "while". I have no problem with "while" or simply "and". It would be interesting to see if there was a pattern in the usage, but this would likely involve studying hundreds of occurrences.

497

General Discussions / Re: 5:55

« on: October 15, 2012, 07:02:59 PM »

w/salaam,

Background: http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=5&verse=55#(5:55:1)

The Arabic literally says "and they are those who RK3"

RK3 can mean bow, incline, (are)humble.

498

General Discussions / Re: Why should we face towards the Kaaba(mecca) while praying ?

« on: October 12, 2012, 04:42:12 PM »

w/salaam saba,

Thanks for your response. Actually, the common claim is that it is a physical mark (which you seem to agree with). I posted an alternative to the common claim. Ideally, the evidence is put on the table for each option, then weighed. If you prefer not to answer my questions, thats is your choice.


w/salaam hope,

Thanks for your input. The only thing I would correct you on is that it is the plural "you" that is used in 48:25, i.e. YOU (plural) did not recognise fellow believers, not only the prophet.

499

General Discussions / Re: Why should we face towards the Kaaba(mecca) while praying ?

« on: October 12, 2012, 03:14:33 AM »

w/salaam saba,

Athar also means physical mark, trace, 40:21, 40:82, 20:84. So what clear 'evidence' do you have that the mark here CANNOT be due to a physical prostration? Thanks Saba

Firstly, I am not disputing it can mean physical mark/trace, as is clear from what I wrote:

"The word "athar" (root: Alif-Tha-Ra) basically means "that which is left behind from something" hence its meanings such as trace/mark/impression/teaching/influence and is not necessarily a physical thing, see 5:46, 18:6, 20:96, 30:50."

And with regards to what "clear evidence" I have. Other than what I already posted, none.

You seem to neglect the other things I mentioned however. So, allow me to ask you:

1) Can "athar" mean a non-physical/literal mark in Quran? Yes/No.
2) Do all people who perform the traditional prayer multiple times per day have a physical mark on their forehead? Yes/No.
3) If you answer "no" to Q2 above, can you estimate a % who do, in your opinion. I personally think <5% but let me know what you think.
4) 48:29 says "fee their wajh" - what is the most common translation of "fee" in Quran? Is it "in" or "on"?
5) Does "wajh" always mean the physical "face" in Quran?
6) Does the word "sima" always mean physical mark / identifying feature?
7) 48:25 clearly states fellow believers were unknown/unrecognisable - how do you reconcile this with believers having a mark upon their forehead, if that is your view?


Thanks.

500

General Discussions / Re: Quran which was written during time of Prophet Muhammad.

« on: October 11, 2012, 09:45:20 PM »

salaam,

See: http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Text/Mss/

501

Discussions / Re: Jesus Crufixion

« on: October 11, 2012, 01:26:22 AM »

salaam,

I believe Ahmad Deedat wrote a leaflet/book about Jesus' crucifxion in The Bible, called "crucifiction or crucifixion?". You can likely read it online.

From my Quran studies in terms of what is most likely, it seems that it appeared to them that Jesus had died on the cross, but likely became unconcious/fainted. He then probably lived a period after before dying.

Not only does the above fit with The Quran, but also explains The Biblical/Christian interpretation of him being raised alive, and its associated myths.

Links available upon request.

502

General Discussions / Re: Why should we face towards the Kaaba(mecca) while praying ?

« on: October 10, 2012, 09:46:40 PM »

w/salaam saba,

In verse 48:29 it says "The mark of them is on their faces from the traces of prostration (sjd). Given your definition which I note does not include physical prostration, how do these marks appear? Saba

Good question. See TS' post above. However, the latter part of that post is missing, which also covers the question, shown below:


Source

48:24 And He is the One who withheld their hands against you, and your hands against them in midst/interior (of) crowding/MaKKah, after He had made you victorious over them. God is Seer of what you do.
48:25 They are those who concealed/rejected and hindered you from/concerning* al maSJD al haram, and prevented the offering/gift from reaching its permitted/lawful place. And if not for believing men and believing women whom you did not know, that you may trample them so would befall you from them sin without knowledge, that God may admit in His mercy whomever He wills. If they had been apart** surely We would then have punished those who concealed/rejected among them with a painful retribution.
48:26 When those who concealed/rejected had put in their hearts disdain, the disdain of the ignorance, then God sent down His tranquility upon His messenger and upon the believers, and made them adhere to the word of righteousness/God-consciousness, and they were more deserving of it and worthy of it. And God is fully aware of all things.
48:27 Certainly, God has confirmed His messenger's vision*** with truth/reality, surely you (plural) will enter al masjid al haram, if God wills, securing/trusting, unburdening/relieving your chiefs/representatives****, and restraining/relinquishing not fearing. So, He knew what you did not know, and He made besides that a victory near/close.
48:28 He is the One who sent His messenger with the guidance and the system/obligation of truth, so that it would expose all other systems. And God is sufficient as a witness.
*Arabic: AAani is a preposition and can mean: from, of, for, about, concerning.
**implies they are all mixed together. One possible meaning of MKK is "crowding" hence the rendition above (Ref: one, two, three). Could also be a reference to 8:33.
*** Arabic: 'al ruya' (dream/vision), see analysis of 17:1-7 and 17:60
**** see discussion of 2:196 above. Many translators interpolate "hair" and imply the "wa/and" which follows means "or" to make their rendition fit better.

48:25 implies both believing men and women were present and out in public and were unknown to the believers addressed. Note the possible link between this and the utilisation of AMAH in 2:148-150 in bringing you all together and completing of God's favour.
"not fearing" likely implies that it is possible to enter AMAH fearing, and perhaps previously the believers did so. See in conjunction with 2:114.
As a side note, 48:25 clearly implies that it would not be possible to identify believers amongst the people, thus interpretations of 48:29 that imply a physical mark upon believer's faces (from prostrating) is highly unlikely.

503

General Discussions / Re: Why should we face towards the Kaaba(mecca) while praying ?

« on: October 10, 2012, 09:26:30 PM »

w/salaam Joseph,

As I'm sure you are aware, I too have a preference for quality over quantity. And I'm sure you are also aware I have spent much time/effort/money in improving the standard of quality when it comes to Quran study, via StudyQuran.org and other projects etc.

You may have asked your moderators to run a tight ship but in this instance let's be clear, we are talking about the creation of a new dedicated thread to discuss something in detail, on something that is not the original topic of this thread. Hardly worthy of a threat to ban such a member.

As you will know, there is already a plethora of misinformation abound. I seek not to add to it by allowing this forum to become a repository for a quagmire of thoughts in flux. Hence my focus, and I trust you will respect my outlook on this matter.

I hope you are making a general statement only, and not one specific to me. Anyone who has read my thousands of posts on Quran topics, read my articles etc will know that I am very careful in what I write, and it is rare to find the content unevidenced by way of Quran and/or reason. And lastly, I am open to discussion on anything I have written, in fact, I welcome it. As I like to say "I'd rather be corrected in this life than the next".

Regards,
Wakas

504

General Discussions / Re: Why should we face towards the Kaaba(mecca) while praying ?

« on: October 10, 2012, 09:14:02 PM »

w/salaam TS,

The reason for the new thread was simple. This thread is about "Why should we face towards the Kaaba(mecca)  while praying ?" and I was asked a question on marks on one's face from sujud. Now, whilst I'm sure one can link the two, to me, it is off-topic.

I am a member of several forums and moderate some, and to me, it is disrespectful to derail another's thread and discuss something off-topic. It seems you do not mind this in this instance.

As per your forum rules:

(l)     Links to external websites must be relevant to the topic. Where they are deemed to be inappropriate, they will be removed.

505

General Discussions / Re: Why should we face towards the Kaaba(mecca) while praying ?

« on: October 10, 2012, 02:44:16 AM »

salaam all,

My understanding is as follows:

The Quranic evidence weighs the evidence in favour of SuJuD meaning "to submit/honour/pay respect".

"masjid" meaning "time of SJD"

"al masjid al haram" meaning "the inviolable time of SJD" (i.e. the term referring to the time-period/event of the inviolable months).

This understanding provides a logical, coherent and practical answer throughout, and helps answer some of the most difficult questions in Quran exegesis (e.g. 17:1, 2:142-150).


Notes:
For SJD above you can substitute from "submission", "paying respect", "honour", i.e. any of the SuJuD meanings above.
By "inviolable months" I am referring to "al ashhur al hurum" mentioned in Quran.


If you require evidence and clarification for the above, please state so here and I will provide it, and if you wish to discuss such an understanding in detail I can create a new thread.

506

General Discussions / Re: Why should we face towards the Kaaba(mecca) while praying ?

« on: October 09, 2012, 06:13:56 AM »

w/salaam TS,

Is the admin of the forum yourself or Brother Joseph or QM Moderator - or are you all one and the same person? Please clarify.

You claim "advertisement" yet my post was on topic AND I was asked by fellow forum members to back-up what I said and clarify.

It is better that you provide your conclusions first clearly. Then if need be, an appropriate link to back it up with reference to the author or the analysis.

Which is what I did. In any case...

If I have understood you correctly, you wish me to state my conclusions first then present evidence later? Sounds a bit like putting the cart before the horse if you ask me, but if this is how you do things here, let me know and I shall.

507

General Discussions / Re: Why should we face towards the Kaaba(mecca) while praying ?

« on: October 07, 2012, 07:04:01 PM »

salaam Hope,

I already gave a reply to that, see above.

salaam saba,

I hope you have read my articles. In part 3 I discuss the meaning of "qiblah" in more detail but I can give you my findings in brief. In order of likelihood:

1) focal-point - focus/centre of interest or activity
2) direction - general aim or purpose; a general way in which someone/something is developing
3) point-of-approach - a way in which to approaching something
4) counteraction - to oppose and mitigate the effects of by contrary action

508

General Discussions / Re: Why should we face towards the Kaaba(mecca) while praying ?

« on: October 07, 2012, 02:31:46 AM »

w/salaam saba,

With this statement you are showing me that you are expecting the Quran to define meanings for you. Otherwise what is the point of the statement you make?? Why should the Quran clearly show you the meaning of any word. The Quran was revealed in Arabic, a language that existed before revelation. The Arabic language should be known. The Quran only used a pre-existing language and not define it. Saba

Again, that is not what I am doing. I have a preference for putting the evidence on the table and weighing each option. Naturally, if you disagree with an aspect of my method you will not give much weight to a particular option. That is up to you.

You, and others, seem to be under the impression that those who passed down the language to us, or told us about Islam etc are infallible, because you seem to assume what they tell us about a word meaning in Quran is 100% truth. No need to question it.

Perhaps you should consider what they say about words such as "hijab", "zakat", "hadith", "sunna", "hikma" and many others. Is all that they tell us the truth?

As I said, if you, or others, have an evidence-based rebuttal to what I wrote, feel free to write one up. Until then, peace.

509

General Discussions / Re: Why should we face towards the Kaaba(mecca) while praying ?

« on: October 05, 2012, 09:50:41 PM »

salam saba,

I said:
2) The word "qiblah" does not clearly mean "prayer direction" in any AQ occurrence, nor does the root QBL in any form.

You said:
How can you prove 'clearly' that in verses 2.142-145 does not mean prayer direction?

I did not say I could "prove clearly" that it does not mean "prayer direction". I said it does not clearly mean that in any AQ occurrence. If you know of such an occurrence let me know.

You said:
when Arabic dictionaries say that one of the meaning is prayer direction and it can clearly fit in these verses?

I did not make a reference to Classical Arabic dictionaries in the statement of mine you quoted. "clearly fit" is not the same as "clearly mean". One could fit several meanings into those verses but showing it clearly means one over the other, is a different matter. If you have such evidence let me know.


Perhaps I could have been a bit clearer in my statement, and change it to:

"The word "qiblah", and its root (QBL), cannot be shown to clearly mean "prayer direction" in any AQ occurrence.

510

General Discussions / Re: Why should we face towards the Kaaba(mecca) while praying ?

« on: October 05, 2012, 09:40:08 PM »

salam dunster,

Thanks for acknowledging words can change in a living language.
 
If you do not wish to call it "prose" then let's simply call it a "text", i.e. something of substance, a few tens of pages at least. This should allow you to answer the question I asked.


And lastly you said:
"...but they are usually properly documented or known. The problem arises when new meanings are given to words that Arabs have long used which don't have much trace in that context. How 1000 years of Arabs missed a particular understanding when it their language beats me."

I can only assume that once again you are making a general statement which has no relevance to me as I cant recall having given a meaning to a word that has no basis in a Classical Arabic text, e.g. Classical Arabic dictionary, and/or based on its grammatical word form. If you do find such an example from me, let me know.