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Salaam Sardar ...Can I please ask without sounding rude, why do you have to keep asking similar questions over and over again with regards salath and Ourbeacon forum people and what they believe? Are you still not sure about this? I'm just asking a basic question of you... Thanx Saba

[synonym]

Salaam Ismail.. I agree with you too. I do think that in some cases when the Qu'ran talks about glorification it is speaking about salaat too as you rightly say, sometimes these terms are synonyms. thanx. Saba 

synonym
noun
plural noun: synonyms
1. a word or phrase that means exactly or nearly the same as another word or phrase in the same language, for example shut is a synonym of close.
"'the East' was a synonym for the Soviet empire"

[ALSO]

Salaam Ismail ...thanx for that ....in your opinion then in verse 11.114 Allah (swt) says establish salaat at two ends of day and also in another verse ....24.58 the mention of salat al fajr is there....

ALSO In another verse..30.17... Allah (swt) says give glory (subhan) to Allah in the morning.

So in your view can we conclude that when Allah (swt) is referring 'subhan' (glory) like in 30:17, it can also mean covering the period of salaat like in 24:58...;.In other words ...sabih can = / include salaat in some cases??? thanx Saba

Ok - got it.. np! 

Salaam Ismail... In your view, is establishing prayers in congregation (salaat) one way in which humans glorify  / praise Allah? thanx Saba

Salaam Sardar, Well.... would you ever ask someone who can't speak Urdu to understand Mirza Ghalib by giving them a dictionary? Would you? Don't get me wrong, but dictionaries have a prupose but not as a substitute of learning the language. Dictionary alone is very dangerous I think. What I do is simply compare translations and use a word-word reference and leave it to Allah to guide me ....Word-word helps as you know when people are unnecessarily inserting words or twisting meanings. Someone once told me when people give long explanations to simple things, then know there is something not quite right.... Saba

[context]

Salaam Sardar,

Basically from what I get from all of this is that br. Joseph is saying that 'yes' that the primary meaning of SJD means humility to pay respect, honor etc etc. But it is the context that tells us if a physical prostration is the meaning ... one way of showing respect to Allah (swt) is through physical prostration. No doubt about it ..... IMHO a lot of Qur'anists don't like this real fact. That is why br. joseph  says"the condition when they have completed their reverence to God (i.e. their prayer). This may or may not include prostration."

So this means that physical prostration can also be the correct meaning

Br. Joseph tells us clearly his view in another article that:

"SJD means to become submissive, humble, to make obeisance, lowly, to pay respect, or to even bend down (bowing) and prostrate. This root word forms other words such as 'Masjid' which is a place where 'SJD' takes place."

"A study of the Quranic narratives clearly reveal that the term 'Sujud' admits different shades of meanings and carries different nuances depending on context. The term 'Sujud' does not always imply a physical prostration to the ground."

He also said in a post which I quoted earlier that ....

"A physical prostration is not only performed by humans in worship but also out of deep respect for another. However, in a state of prayer to God, a physical rendition of the term is often implied."

...also as Sword showed here ----> http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1200.msg5571#msg5571 in another post ...in verse 48.29, a physical prostration is meant according to br. Joseph...

I reckon that as some Quranists can't speak Arabic,  this may be a big problem for them as they may think that 'traditionalists' will take whatever meaning they want.  But this is wrong...so so wrong ...IMHO its only certain Qur'anists that don't know any Arabic and mainly use dictionaries that find this a big big problem...so a lot of them fight over meanings arguing non-stop.... Just like English speaking people know what a word means in a context .....so do people who speak Arabic.

Therefore, I agree with br joseph that in verse 48.29, a physical prostration is the proper meaning. I don't think there is any proof against it ... just a lot of 'maybe' 'maybe' 'maybe' and more 'maybe' from a lot of Qur'anists. That is also where the marks on the forehead come from.

Also I have a q for you br Sardar...you clearly believe in 5 salaat and prostration.. so why do you keep asking these questions? you see i think that asking these q over and over again you are only going to cause trouble between those who have different views on this and have said all they have to say.. I think it causes trouble...don't take it personally or anything but putting questions out just for the sake of arguments is not really nice unless if you have a question that you are unsure about...just my two cents ..... Saba

Wakas,

You mean the 1-7 q's? It remains unanswered because 'i think' your questions are pathetic and ridiculous to answer and I can't be bothered with your new Quranist ideas.... Have you thought why I and 'maybe' others don't answer your q's at times and don't read your really long posts? Because they don't make sense half the time.  So pls don't be sneaky and say things like 'remains unanswered'... trying to catch me out or show that your questions have stumped me. Maybe people don't answer your q's because they can't be bothered with what they think is nonsense!!! have u thought of that? anyway, I told u what I thought of you answering q's with other q's. You have no proof to show that this verse does not mean physical prostration and the marks are bec. of it.... All you have are new questions!.

I reckon this all goes back to the same problem you have with these verses.... You don't want to admit that physical prostration is what the qur'an wanted to say. So now you are trying to question 'sima' and 'athar' etc etc..attempting to change its meanings.. Can you tell us all with your 'grand knowledge' that physical prostration is not the meaning in this verse ....and the marks are not left by prostration? Why can this not be possible? and if your answer is 'maybe' it can ..then I rest my case!!! Saba

Salaam Sardar... i think enough is said on this topic already, what clarifications do you still want??? Can't you make up your mind with the evidence that is given already??? Please read the Qur'an for yourself.... in my view its pretty clear where these marks have come from and they are from prostration. Nothing that a Quranist may say will convince me otherwise because I see no proof. Also it was my thinking you already believe in prayers, sujud etc etc ..so why are you repeatedly asking these questions? Saba

Salaam Sardar, there are many.... here is one you started

http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1027.msg4005#msg4005

There are others:

http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=571.45
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=477.msg5219#msg5219

I just searched a few.

Bro Sardar. Salaam. I think you know the answer to this q of yours and I also think you know that some so called 'Qur'anists' that change the meanings of words so it can fit what they believe are not going to agree with you or me....so why bother asking this question? The Qur'an says it is bec. of prostration. Now to change the meaning - some Qur'anists will first try to change the meaning of sajda with all kind of lengthy articles and then change the meaning of 'marks'..and say .. voila!!! look this does not mean prostration!!.I also think this may have already be covered on the forum but you can look it up if u want to. Saba

[I THINK]

I consider this a significant clarification of your view, and such clarification is important because without it, it can mislead others about your view and/or what The Quran says. A case in point being forum member saba who was under the impression you took it to mean a physical prostration only in 4:102. No-one can really blame her if they read those two aforementioned articles.

Salaam Wakas. Here you again once again going over the same old same old again. Let me tell you what I THINK. Having read the exchange between you and br. Joseph, I think he completely made his position clear and defeated all your wrong arguments. That is my view. PERIOD!  I don't see any contradiction. From what I can see...4:102 still speaks about PHYSICAL PROSTRATION. Yes, 'sujood' can have the main meaning of humility etc but given the situation of 4:102 it implies physical prostration. That is what I understood from the response you are talking about .... that it first means 'humility' etc and one of the ways it is shown is by physical prostration as in 4:102. To be honest, I am also getting sick and tired of your constant bickering and nit picking over this issue. In future, please don't involve me in your discussions about this topic. Thanks! Saba

Hmm very interesting response Zack!! there was always this thing in my mind that muslims sometimes do think of Allah (swt) as something away, separate and detached but throughout qur'an Allah (swt) has spoken about his mercy, forgiveness as if He really cares about us all....doesn't mean Allah won't test us, or send calamities etc - of course he will test and all and sometimes fiercly...but that doesn't mean we should lose our face every time we are tested. there is some good articles on this site about Allah (swt) mercy and love called generous and forgiving lord - http://quransmessage.com/articles/generous,%20forgiving%20lord%20FM3.htm ...even every sura starts with Bismillah iRAHMAN RAHEEM - most compassionate and merciful.... I like the understanding of we are created in his image ... we have love, so does he, we can get angry, so does he, we look for justice and he is the most just etc..so we must have attributes so that we can understand Allah (swt). thanks for sharing. Saba 

I know what article u are talking about and I have read it too.... its this one right???

http://quransmessage.com/articles/invented%20prayer%20FM3.htm

well ... from where i am seeing this ..br. Joseph made a very good observation and said ....

There is clear evidence in the earliest Non-Muslim sources within approximately a decade of the Prophetic ministry which confirms that the earliest Muslims both prayed and fasted. There would be absolutely no perceivable interest for aggressed Christians to invent such Godly rituals and attribute them to the 'Saracens' (Arab Muslims) who they saw as oppressors.

now it might not be convincing for you but the part I highlighted in red is very strong from where I am seeing it.... and also u forget that the main purpose of the article was to argue against what certain quranists say that 'salaat' was something that was invented later with Persian influence....sorry but wrong as the article showed !!!  Saba

now, you can say its a waste of my time and ignore it. but i will only do so when there is a proper understanding of how this guy is cheating us.

salam Saba and have a pleasent day.

Well good luck with your pursuits. You asked for a view from the forum so I gave my view. Simple. Have you seen the articles on this site where salat is discussed as well as Zakat??? Or are you trying to push Aidid's views on us? Well maybe then you have come to the wrong forum!! A pleasant day to you too! Salaam