Messages

31

Discussions / Re: Mental Bondage by Aidid Safar

« on: April 02, 2014, 11:59:04 AM »

now, you can say its a waste of my time and ignore it. but i will only do so when there is a proper understanding of how this guy is cheating us.

salam Saba and have a pleasent day.

Well good luck with your pursuits. You asked for a view from the forum so I gave my view. Simple. Have you seen the articles on this site where salat is discussed as well as Zakat??? Or are you trying to push Aidid's views on us? Well maybe then you have come to the wrong forum!! A pleasant day to you too! Salaam       

32

Islamic Duties / Re: What is the real meaning of sola/salat?

« on: April 01, 2014, 09:26:56 PM »

Salaam, Waste of time if you ask me...also this has been talked about before..

http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=908.msg3562#msg3562

Little or no merit at all in these works....just look at the content on this site, you'll see the difference...people like Aidid Safar or qamar zaman from astaana etc only twist the Arabic. If you don't know Arabic or have a good way to analyze it in the Qur'an, then even more the reason to stay away from these kind of groups! Saba

33

Islamic Duties / Re: Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas

« on: March 05, 2014, 10:17:27 PM »

Hmmm. Interesting! . Thank u for sharing that. I will go through this thread again to get to the bottom of this. Thanks .br. Wakas. Saba 

34

Islamic Duties / Re: Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas

« on: March 05, 2014, 07:06:25 PM »

THEREFORE IN SUMMARY:
 

• SJD primarily means to show humility, submissiveness, to be humbled, show reverence, salute, honour, pay regards, respects etc
• Different creations of God show their humility and submissiveness in different ways
• Physical prostration is only one way humans show their humility (SJD)
• A physical prostration is not only performed by humans in worship but also out of deep respect for another. However, in a state of prayer to God, a physical rendition of the term is often implied.

[/u]
[/list]

Salaam br. Wakas, I am not sure I agree with you that you and br. Joseph are on the same page here. I re-read the whole of the first page of this thread where you discussed this with him......It seems you cannot accept that a word can have different meanings and as I think you can't speak Arabic, you find that troublesome as you can't determine what word to fit where. ....like an english person will know what a specific word means in various sentences....non-english speaker like a chinese will get confused if he or she only had a dictionary to go on...That is your problem with Arabic.

Anyway,,, I'll re-share the articles below of br. joseph to show what his views are on this..... I see it this way - sjd is prostration when it refers to humans when they revere Allah (swt).... masjid is a place where worshippers do SJD for Allah (swt). simple! you can make it as complex as you like, but that is it for me.  Saba   

REFERENCES:

[1] SAJDA e-TILAWAT - UNDERSTANDING THE TRADITION
http://quransmessage.com/articles/st%20FM3.htm
[2] WHAT IS THE QURANIC SUJUD (PROSTRATION)?
http://quransmessage.com/articles/sujud%20FM3.htm

35

Islamic Duties / Re: Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas

« on: March 04, 2014, 12:30:25 PM »

Here is another absolutely brilliant response to br Wakas's repeated desire to interpret SJD differently ..... Had to share!

Salaam Wakas,

Quran could have clarified if sjd meant physical prostration in 4:102 by saying something similar...

The Quran could have clarified lots of things, and yet it didn't. It didn't clarify what it meant by swimming, running, fighting, nor did it clarify many verses on punishments. Why should the Quran 'clarify' the meaning of a word that everyone already knows? The answer is the opposite - the Quran clarified the non-physical uses of the word which everyone already knew and accepted as being physical. The same way the Quran clarified that "swimming" SBH does not literally mean swimming in water, despite everyone knowing perfectly well that that's what it means.

By your standards and treatment of sujood we should now have to reinterpret yasbahu because God never clarifies that it also means swimming in water.

Or perhaps in 17:107-109 could have mentioned being on the ground in some way.

It does clarify that. You've just ignored it because you are forcing your own interpretation onto the verses. The meaning of being on the ground is absolutely clear in these verses, and even your idol Mustansir Mir takes this position. I don't know how God could've made it clearer without writing out specifically "get onto the ground people". Sujood is paired with KHRR throughout the Quran.

Anyone who has read Quran434.com will know otherwise. I relied significantly on Quranic usage, its internal logic etc.

You analyzed every occurrence of the word DRB to argue that DRB can mean something other than 'strike'.

Now you have overwhelming evidence that KHRR means to physically fall, and you ignore it.

Wrong. See 25:73, which is even quoted in my sjd article.

This can easily be interpreted as a physical action. It goes both ways, but I think the physical action here is a better interpretation.

I interpret it as criticizing the people who go to pray whilst thinking about what they had for lunch that day, or what they want to do. You see these people in the mosques, they do some lightning prayer and leave. The context of the verse is an extended description of the characteristics of the righteous people. Then this verse says:

Those who when they are reminded of their Lord's signs, they do not fall deaf and blind thereat.

Literal: they do not fall on the reminder/verses deaf and blind


I interpret this as a continuation of the description of the righteous people. We are told that the righteous are the ones who stay late into the night in sujood and qiyaam, they pass by trivial talk with dignity, and they do not prostrate when they are reminded to without heart and khushoo3 in a mechanical fashion.

I don't know how else to interpret this verse in a non-physical manner. You argue that KHRR means to be humbled elsewhere in the Quran. How is one humbled deaf and blind? Or the other interpretation is to "fall" on the verses (ayat) as if to attack them. Again, not in line with the context at all. In your article you state that it means to fall on the verses - ie: read them without care, as if deaf and blind. This is ok, it fits, but I don't consider it the correct interpretation.
Clearly the intention here is to warn against mechanical prostration and prayer done without heart. That is why the non-righteous simply "fall" at hearing God's verses, whereas the righteous fall in sujood - because it is not sujood without the emotional component, otherwise it simply becomes falling to the ground deaf and blind.



But let's assume that it does not mean physical falling for the sake of avoiding an argument about this particular verse - we are still left with 6 out of 7 incidences where KHRR definitely means falling.

If we remove all the verses that have KHRR Sujjadan and 17:109, we are left with 7 occurrences.

Of those occurrences KHRR means to physically fall each and every time except for this one that you don't want to interpret as falling. 38:24 is not 100% clear, so let's exclude that. And 34:14 means both falling down and death. (The worm gnaws at his staff so he falls (dies)).

So - we have 6 out of 7 occurrences that clearly mean physical falling, with only 1 verse that is unclear and can be both.

So by your standards, this is a pretty clear indication of what KHRR means.

In the exampels you gave, can you clarify if they have the same structure as the example we are discussing in 17:107, quote from article:


i.e.
idiom + accusative word

When I find an idiom followed by an accusative adjective I'll let you know. Off the top of my head I can't think of any.





But let's summarize what we know -


1. Like swimming, running, and other Arabic words, the accepted definition of Sujood to pre-Islamic Arabs is prostration. We have examples of pre-Islamic poetry that clearly shows us they thought Sujood = prostration. From the Encyclopaedia of the Quran, Vol. 4 Page 219:

Sujūd was known among the peoples of the Middle East in pre-Islamic times as a gesture of respect at royal courts and as an act of adoration in Christian worship. Pre-Islamic poetry cites a few examples of prostration (sujūd) before a tribal chief in recognition of his superiority and as an expression of one’s submission (cf. Tottoli, Muslim attitudes, 5-34).
The act of prostration hurt the pride (q.v.) of the Arabs (Q 25:60; 7:206; cf. 16:49; 32:15; 68:42-3) because it appeared to them as a humiliating gesture and an alien practice (cf. Kister, Some reports, 3-6).


2. KHRR is used as physically falling in every single other case (or all except one if we accept your contention regarding 25:73)

3. Idioms where the action happens and a non-literal word is added for intensity are common. (I'm so hungry I can eat a horse, it is raining cats and dogs, etc.)


4. The phrase is falling to the chins. lil-adhqaani. Not 3alaa al-adhqaani, which would be the normal way to say it in arabic.


5. We have an actual recorded example of this phrase as a popular Arab saying. It was common enough and well known enough to end up in Lane's Lexicon as an idiom! Lane specifically recorded for us examples of trees and stones falling to their chins!


6. You've challenged me to explain how the idiom could work and I have explained it. In turn, please explain verses such as 19:58

إِذَا تُتْلَى عَلَيْهِمْ آيَاتُ الرَّحْمَن خَرُّوا سُجَّدًا وَبُكِيًّا

You are arguing that sujjadan is a metaphor, or a non-literal meaning of the accepted word, whereas bakiyyan (crying) is literally physical crying. God never clarifies how to cry, just as he never clarifies how to perform sujood, and relies on our knowledge of the language. So either we must assume that one is literal and one isn't, or that SJD did not originally mean prostration and there has been a massive conspiracy to get people to perform physical prostration when the original word had no such meaning.



7. The Quran pairs SJD with KHRR repeatedly. 12:100 (kharruu lahu sujjadan), 17:107 (yukhirruuna lilidhqaani sujjadan), 19:58 (kharruu sujjadan wa bakiyyaa), 32:15 (kharruu sujjadan) - why is God using the word "fall" throughout the Quran with SJD to a bunch of people who think SJD means prostration??


8. If the point of KHRR is to express humility in 17:107 and 17:109 and elsewhere, then why not use the many words used in the Quran already for humility?? Why repeat KHRR with sujood so many times instead of saying "humble yourselves sujjadan" ? There are many choices, for example DR3, KHBT, KHSH3, 3NW,



Peace

Words like Sujud are well known to Arabic speaking people all over the world. Even in the Qur'an it can mean physical prostrations...!!!

http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606251.30

36

General Discussions / Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz

« on: March 03, 2014, 09:53:36 AM »

Repeat your arguments and fancies as many time you like... make new rules, give new fatwas, start a new sect if that's what you want

Salaam - Pot calls the kettle black again br ArmanAziz???

Verse 5-1

O ye who believe! Fulfil your indentures. The beast of cattle is made lawful unto you (for food)

You can do what you like, but as has been shown so many times to you.... you have no proof - just verses out of context!!!!   Saba

37

General Discussions / Re: verse 86:5-7

« on: March 03, 2014, 09:08:20 AM »

Salaam Sardar, I'm just wondering, br. joseph has already provided here a detailed article on this discussing this yet why are you asking him about another obscure translation of Maudoodi when he has clearly stated his opinion on these verses? If you haven't read the article .. please see link below!! Thanks Saba 

http://quransmessage.com/articles/verse%2086-7%20FM3.htm

38

General Discussions / Re: jews are apes and pigs

« on: March 01, 2014, 02:10:36 AM »

As-salam alaykum

Please see article below which shares my humble perspectives in the form of an analysis on this matter.

THE SABBATH BREAKERS: APES & SWINE - A METAPHORICAL OR LITERAL READING?
http://quransmessage.com/articles/sabbathbreakers%20FM3.htm

Regards,
Joseph

Salaams .. thanks for sharing!!!  Saba

39

General Discussions / Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz

« on: February 28, 2014, 11:17:57 AM »

Salaam Armanaziz. Or may be it is you that does not accept crystal clear verses like 5.1 that makes it clear what we are allowed to eat......have you heard the phrase pot calling the kettle black? Lets not go over this again......it's really getting boring now!!!!!!

40

General Discussions / Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz

« on: February 28, 2014, 04:27:57 AM »

Salaam...

I know this is gruesome (warning link) - but I cannot see how any of Allah's scriptures ever approved eating of all animals whether 'implied' or 'expressed' ...!!!!!!!!!!!


Is this the world's most gruesome food market? Dogs, rats, bats and monkeys among the animals roasted WHOLE in Indonesia

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2569111/Held-tiny-cages-animals-await-fate-alongside-remains-dogs-rats-monkeys-creatures-flame-roasted-WHOLE-Indonesian-market.html

41

General Discussions / Re: Joseph Islam's Article "THE SEVEN AHRUF, RECITATIONS (QIRAAT), HAFS AND WARSH"

« on: February 23, 2014, 10:32:12 PM »

Salaam Abbsrayray.... I think the whole discussion comes down to the following.....

Joseph Islam  - Says  - No such thing as the Qur'an being revealed in 7 modes, recitations, different versions etc etc
Bassam Zawadi  - Yes there are!! That is because the Hadith says so!

Joseph Islam  - Prove from the Qur'an that the Hadith are 'authorized' by Allah as religious sources of interpretation from where you get all these 7 modes etc etc.
Bassam Zawadi  - No comment!!!

One is arguing from the Quran (br. Joseph) and the other from Hadith (br. Bassam)

  Saba
 

42

General Discussions / Re: verse 86:5-7

« on: February 22, 2014, 08:57:23 PM »

Salaam br. joseph and thank u for your article which i have gone through...although we can find more hidden meanings, I understand i think why you have kept as close to the qur'an's verses and the classical arabic dictionaries as possible... I suppose if you go out side the arabic language as it has got to us then someone will find all kinds of different interpretations of other verses where people disregard the arabic language and make up their own definitions. I have seen enough of this as people say that 'nisa' does not mean women but means weaker members of society... we already know what has happened to the meaning of salat, saum, jinn, insaan etc.!!!...We have seen enough of that by certain groups in other forums as well as here.!! I suppose when u can't prove your view with support from either the qur'an or lexicons, your argument will be attacked or you could 'potentially' ..make anything up... I get it...that is if u cannot trust the language that we receive, then how can we trust anything the qur'an says? It would become like bedlam with the qur'an! ...so i understand why you kept it strictly the way you did. but i also noted that there was much room left for interpretation in what you said as you left it quite general too at the same time. Was this intentional?....thanx, very helpful. Saba   

43

General Discussions / Re: verse 86:5-7

« on: February 22, 2014, 05:09:30 AM »

For those interested, this has been discussed several times on the free-minds forum.

Salaam Wakas - I'm sure people know where free-minds.org is if they want to go there. The question was asked here....on this forum.... do you have a view on this to share here!? Saba


@br. Joseph ....... thanks for your article..still going through it .....!!! 

44

General Discussions / Re: verse 86:5-7

« on: February 20, 2014, 07:32:19 PM »

Salaam br Joseph. I look forward to your perspective on this too....Saba

45

General Discussions / Re: Br Joseph and forum members: What are the 5 books that influenced you most?

« on: February 17, 2014, 08:42:13 AM »

Salaam .. I'm not sure about others but I know that br. Joseph provides his areas of interest / research below:

http://quransmessage.com/articles/about%20the%20author%20FM.htm

I can only imagine what his references will be or how wide they will be ...quite broad as a research scholar I'm sure... however as far as I am concerned, i try to read the qur'an and study it and then the bible where the qur'an speaks of stories in Biblical terms...After all, the qur'an doesn't do away with the Bible, but expects you to know about it. A large part of the qu'ran is dedicated to biblical stories. However law - shariah or what I use to judge - then its the qur'an for sure. Saba