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Here is one thread where Dr Shabbir is attacking ritual prayer ...

http://www.ourbeacon.com/cgi-bin/bbs60x/webbbs_config.pl/md/read/id/314123119153857


br Mubashir do you really need me to dig out all the threads in which you have been a major part to show you how dr shabbir deals with those that almost attacked you for your views.... did dr. shabbir ever come to your rescue???

["A queer video: You might have seen Allama G.A.P. praying FOUR rak'ats completed in a brief HALF minute video. It was made to obviate a life threat on him in 1984."]

No scholar is perfect and Dr Shabbir has his share of strengths and weakness. With respect to Salat, if I have understood him correctly, he says it covers the ritual prayer but encompasses a much wider concept.

Oh come on br. Mubashir!!! you out of all ppl br Mubashir??? I have seen you almost banging your head against those who reject namaz on the ourbeacon forum and dr shabbir never comes to  your rescue, instead gives mixed messages galore... I am sure you know very well how many mixed messaged dr shabbir gives out on namaz... he has even gone so far as to deny that his guru Ghulam Parwez ever read namaz and even questions fasting!!!

http://www.ourbeacon.com/cgi-bin/bbs60x/webbbs_config.pl/page/1/md/read/id/314123119192345

I mean can you believe this ...."A queer video: You might have seen Allama G.A.P. praying FOUR rak'ats completed in a brief HALF minute video. It was made to obviate a life threat on him in 1984."

I can dig out many threads where dr shabbir has questioned ritual prayer and namaz.. really brother,,, do u really need me to do this??pls br Mubashir ...lets be honest here and stop defending the indefensible .I really didn't expect this from you... Salaam Saba

Salaam Saba,

I think he is referring to Bedouin Arabs when he says he spent time with them in the desert. They speak Arabic, we understood them when we went on an adventure to Palestine and in the desert in Jordan to see how they live.

Salaam Abbsrayray  .... I would have had more respect for him if he just said exactly what you said .. but he says about himself ...:

"In addition, the opportunity to socialize with the Bedouins was certainly a great advantage since even today they frequently speak the Quraish dialect."

http://drshabbir.com/library/QXP200808iv.pdf

I mean I agree Bedouins speak Arabic .... but how does anyone know they speak the exact quraishi dialect from 1400 years ago? I'm sure even amongst the desert people, words and expressions change over time. Isn't there a common Arabic that all arabic speaking nations use? but no one claims it is quraishi right?? pls correct me if Im srong sis as you will have more understanding of spoken arabic than me.... Saba 

One studying the Quraish really does not give them the knowledge on the Quran nor the understanding.

I agree with you sis. But imho ... all this talk of quraish is all a smokescreen. What quraish??? they haven't existed for upteen centuries!!! they were a particular tribe at the time the qur'an was revealed and Muhammad (saw) spoke in that dialect... And all this talk of dr. shabbir spending time in the desert and all to learn quraishi arabic ... have people gone mad? where are the quraish in the deserts now? and I bet you (not literally) my bottom dollar that NOT ONE.. not ONE of the those desert arabs that dr shabbir often refers to in his wild claims would understand salat the way he does as some form of keeping up divine commandments and not ritiual namaz/ He has so much prb with ritual prayers that you often see him talking against it and then sends out mixed messages imho.  Saba

[core]

w/salaam sister saba,

salaam br. wakas ... thank u for replying  .. Ok .. I have an honest q ...a translation movement that cannot decide what 'salat' means, how do you think it will do? ...... will it not fail on the first hurdle? .....Saba

Assuming it cannot decide on what a word means, it would include notes that discuss the various options.

Personally, I do not think there would be much variance on the word "salat". For example, it is clear from Quranic and Classical Arabic dictionary usage it has a core meaning of: go/turn towards in a close/positive manner, commonly between two (or more) entities. Depending on context and the entities involved, this underlying meaning can become specific, e.g. blessing, prayer, eulogy, oration, supplication.

Once this is explained, a meaning would be chosen for the translation that tries to best encompass such a word. The goal of such a translation is to empower the individual with accurate information, allowing the reader to weigh and consider the options, then make an informed decision.

Do you have an objection?

Interesting .. so like footnotes you mean... Would you then do the same with verses 9:128-29 where you would mention...there are groups such as 19 group / submitters that believe these verses are not from the Quran - inspired by satan ... i.e. include more and more footnotes?  If you just want a translation and discussion on the words what is wrong with what quran corpus is already doing? It allows for discussions on some words ..but tries to stay a word / word translation because it is in the footnotes that all sorts of problems occur. also wouldn't  a meaning for salaat = go/turn towards in a close/positive manner not confuse ppl more? i mean they will then start to think ..hmm what does it mean here .. does it mean blessing, prayer, eulogy, oration, supplication??? Will this not get more confusing??? I find the more choices you give of a word , the more the fluid nature of the text is lost and it gets more difficult to read.  Also I do think that if you are going to translate a book in english you need people that can speak english natively or well and understand the book rather than mainly through dictionaries and tools...It is the pick and choose - cherry picking from dictionaries to suit your own views that causes a lot of the problems with such qur'anist groups. what do u think>?

I mean look at the carnage that took place here between you and br. Farouk Peru .. it turned into a slanging match.

http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=601.msg2104#msg2104

In his preface to QXP (Quran as it explains itself, Dr. Shabbir writes:

The author of the Qur'an is none but Almighty God. Before the reader is an
English rendition of the Glorious Book by Shabbir Ahmed (1947 to ?) an
ordinary servant of God.

The work, although close to translation, is more of an understanding from
within the Qur'an itself. This Divine Writ calls itself An-Noor (the Light) and
light needs no extrinsic sources to show itself. Therefore, I have based my
presentation on two principles:

1. Focusing on the language in which the Qur'an was revealed.
2. Making use of Tasreef, that is, how the Qur'an repeats its messages from
very diverse vantage points.

A diligent study of the Book using Tasreef helps us look at the Qur'an in its
Big Picture, and this method gives us a phenomenal advantage toward its
understanding.

I have rendered the terms and linguistics of the Qur'an using the Quraish
(Quresh) dialect of Makkah since it is the Arabic dialect in which the Qur'an
was revealed to the exalted Muhammad bin Abdullah, the Final Prophet,
Messenger and Apostle of God. [570-632 CE]

19:97 And only to this end We have made this (Qur'an) easy to understand in
your own tongue (O Prophet). That you might convey thereby glad news to the
righteous and warn people given to futile disputation.

Being a young member of the Saudi royal medical staff, I had the good fortune
of learning the Quraish dialect in the 1970s under the auspices of King Faisal
bin Abdul Aziz and King Khalid bin Abdul Aziz of Saudi Arabia. I was blessed
with the opportunity to learn Islamic theology in the University of Madinah
after having learnt the subject under the guidance of the celebrated names of
Qari Baqaullah and 'Maulana' Ehtishamul Haq Thanwi in Karachi during my
college days in the 1960s.

In addition, the opportunity to socialize with the Bedouins was certainly a
great advantage since even today they frequently speak the Quraish dialect.
Learning the dialect, by no means, amounts to absorbing the Saudi theology.
Some of the well-known western scholars who learned Arabic by socializing
with the Bedouins:

 In the 1810s - The Swiss Muslim traveler-explorer, Johann Ludwig Burckhardt
(Sheikh Ibrahim bin Abdullah 1784-1817). ..............

more at:

.........http://drshabbir.com/library/QXP200808iv.pdf

Would appreciate comments from those who know the language and the challenges it poses to translators.  Thanks.

Salaaam br. Mubashir .. i can't imagine why you out of all people would share QXP like this, when i would expect u to know how Dr. shabbir interprets and misinterprets the qur'an in my view .....

With regarding Tasfreeful ayaat.. .. i agree with br. Joseph's view on this and the QXP where he says ...

For example, albeit I agree with Dr. Shabbir's understanding of the concept, I with respect do not concur with many of his renditions in the QXP which he does in the name of 'tasreef al-ayat', yet which I personally find extremely outlandish. Students of the Quran can only give their perspective and allow the readers to discern.

http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=393.msg1178;topicseen#msg1178

Personally I don't trust Dr Shabbir ... or his academic work .. For example, I shared my view here ...

http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=949.0

Also ...Dr Shabbir's academic misrepresentation is shared here ...when he spoke about Imam Razi's horrible confession ..

http://quransmessage.com/expose/dr-shabbir-razi%20FM3.htm

Saba 

Salaam Saba,

VERY SAD indeed people misinterpiting the Allahs beautiful words and spreading lies against our Creator. This is only leading people astry, but again if people want to behave like sheep than so be it. How clear can the Quran get? No one truely has access to the meaning nor understanding unless Allah grants them that, as Allah clearly repeats in His Holy Quran. I think this group will benifit going to Saudi Arabia and educating them about no hadith first and teaching the Talaban extremist... 

I am American, born and raised, and Live in the U.S. Both my Parents are Palestinian. I was brought up in a Sunni Muslim upbrining. Except there was no covering the head, and we had freedom to an extent, well as long as my dad did not find out that is. My mom was not your typical traditional muslim, I deeply feel she really never believed in the Hadith or what it says in there because I and some of my siblings broke every single rule that was in there and she just yelled at us and let it go.


I love Allah more than my own soul and I will never back down from correcting people when they are misrepresenting the Truth that is in front of their eyes.  I know what Allah is capiable of and I fear him to the CORE! He  has done me many favors and fulfilled my du'a that if I even put them down here, people will think I have gone delusional. (p.s Ismail, Cancer is cured by Allah even without ANY TREATMENT or URINE) Subhanahu

Salaams Abbsrayray ... thanks for sharing sis 

Saba,
To me, whom the author is, is irrelevant, hence why I sometimes do not mention it. If someone asks, and it happens to be my work, I have no issue saying it is.
I believe the Reformist Quran Translation (RQT) is based somewhat on the free-minds.org translation. The authors of RQT are stated clearly on book sites that sell it. Edip Yuksel has no say in translationmovement (it's not even something to have a say in, at the moment, as it is not even begun) however that does not mean he will not have a say in the future, if it went ahead. The reason I linked to it was to get feedback on the idea/concept.
With regard to my views and discussions on free-minds, I think you exaggerated/misrepresented my position somewhat, but it is good you posted a link so others can read and make up their own minds.

salaam br. wakas ... thank u for replying  .. Ok .. I have an honest q ...a translation movement that cannot decide what 'salat' means, how do you think it will do? ...... will it not fail on the first hurdle? .....Saba

[A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily]

Salaam,

I am confused... So brother Wakas wants to translate the Quran and include the bible in it? or get verses out of the bible to include in the Quran to make more of an understanding of the Quran that can not be translated? I saw something about that Allah shaped the earth in a egg form. Astagfer Allah that is a distortion of Allah's words, He would have said round if He wanted to, He does not need someone to speak or correct His verses to make it up to date on what they think it should say. THIS ANGERS ME VERY VERY MUCH! Brother Wakas, if you understand Arabic, Haram Aliak, Ittaqillah!!!!

Freeminds.org? No disrespect but Alhumduillah I know my deen and that I need to pray 5x a day. Not one living soul on the planet can ever convince me the Quran says differently about prayer  than the Five Allah mentions in the Quran. I  never go off reading the Quran as my only source, I listen to it, research it and ponder on it til my eyes are ready to pop out. And only than when I am convinced what the verse says I accept it.

Salaam Abbsrayray,

Br. Wakas does nto believe in 5 prayers. I think he believes in only 2 and he has debated this topic numerous times on free-minds and directly with br. Joseph (who believes in 5 prayers). The debate with br. Joseph is here:

http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=477.msg1501#msg1501

On the free-minds, he is constantly debating this topic and also puts out challenges like here:  A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily  - http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606088.0

He also debates the topic of 'SJD' a lot ..prostration and has his own meaning of what Masjid is which is also debated quite hotly on the free-minds forum.

I think it is sad and doesn't help us as quran followers when people are debating major base things of our religion such as the number of prayers or even if they exist.....can u imagine what kind of impression that would give to Sunni's and Shia's when they look at us and all this bickering ... they will say .. look !!! they can't even decide on the prayers ... hey I'm better being a traditionalist!!! .. anyway.. thought I'd share ..

Also.. if u don't mind me asking... where are you from and are you a fellow sis? I love your passion... Saba 

Salaam br. Wakas. Also another question. Isn't the reformist translation from the free-minds groups? Isn't that something that Edip Yuksel has translated (as part of the 19 group) with someone else? I see that 2 verses have been omitted from this translation (9-128/129). I know Rashad Khalifa and Edip were part of the same submitter group once.  How much influence does the 19 Edip Yusel / rashad khalifa (submitter) translation have on this movement you are referring to please? Thanks Saba

If their quality of work is as they say it is, I would love to know a) if they have published hard copies b) If they can publish in other major languages such as Indonesian.

Salaam br. Daniel. I think a lot if not all the work is sourced from a concordance from Hanna Kassis and Edward Lanes lexicons which are already published. I think the root list also links to the excellent qur'an corpus site. http://corpus.quran.com/  The corpus site is something that its part of university project I think. I know br. Joseph uses Edward Lanes Lexicon bec. of consistency etc but i think he mentioned he uses many other dictionaries too including arabic ones, such as he shares in the link below and also can translate directly from the arabic. 

http://quransmessage.com/articles/thobe-jilbab%20FM3.htm

What do you make of this? http://translationmovement.com

Salaam br. Wakas. don't take me wrong, but I often note you giving links to works that are your own or you have a part in but dont make it clear that its yours. Why don't you just come out with it and say its yours? It would be very helpful .....For example, I know the link you gave Abbsrayray is your work / site
www.Quran434.com ... but why not just say it like here is my interpretation etc etc? Also br Daniel mentioned the linkg with the studyquran site but then why not say that http://www.studyquran.co.uk/  is something you have worked with too for example ...

http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=7717.0

Why not just be clear and say .. here is my interpretation and my views, rather than make it appear like its an external study? After all, these projects are very noble projects mashallah. Just say its your work or you have input in the work pls next time. it just makes things clearer for everybody and those that don't know your work and so then know where you are coming from. 

However I do like root list site very very much .....really useful and a great project but as far as translation goes, there will always be dispute over exact meaning.   thanks Saba 

[Also]

Salaam.

Al Hamdu Lillah, I am trying to write a comprehensive, strictly Qur'anic review of the lawful and unlawful as regards non veg food.

The following is an off-the-cuff answer:

Supposing, all the boys in a school have gathered for the morning prayers.

There, the Principal announces, by naming three boys belonging to the 4th Standard that they are allowed to attend classes.

After the prayer meeting, all the boys, including the named ones will march to their respective classes.

Nobody will think that what the Principal meant was that only the named ones should attend classes.

Similar is the case of (5:1) as regards allowing the named category. The context here seems to be any possible doubt or a question regarding the continuation of the traditional culture of eating Al An'am. I have already dwelt on this in a previous post.

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

Salaam Ismail. I don't see what your analogy has to do with the question. Why does Allah have to mention grazing livestock which the Arabs already knew to eat this if the intention was to make all animals halal anyway? Can't you see this??? Also it would have made far more sense to mention the lawfulness of other animals like dogs and cats etc especially as the followers of previous scriptures didn't eat this as lawful food. The Qur'an would have expected to clarified this. How else can the food of believers be lawful to people of the book and vice versa?? (5:5). It a simple argument but without meaning to sound rude you are not providing any convincing arguments. So I'll ask again politely ......

"Why did Allah mention grazing animals for lawfulness in verse 5-1 if all animals were halal anyway?"

and

How can the food of believers (if dogs and cats be eaten) be lawful for the people of the book (5:5)?

["Why did Allah mention grazing animals for lawfulness in verse 5-1 if all animals were halal anyway?"]

As for "especially ...", I do not have any particular resource to answer it. 
Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.

Salaam ...Thanks for being frank. Actually this was the relevant part for the thread topic...but even more importantly, if you have a more convincing answer now or in the future than you have already given for my main question I have repeated many times.. please do share br. Ismail.

"Why did Allah mention grazing animals for lawfulness in verse 5-1 if all animals were halal anyway?"

Saba 

["especially at the time around Arabia when prophet muhammad (saw) was preaching?"]

Thanks for sharing br. Ismail. As per my post, I was referring to "especially at the time around Arabia when prophet muhammad (saw) was preaching?"  I am sure all sorts of things were sacrificed. I mean even the Quran recognized that humans were possibly sacrificed otherwise why would prophet Abraham even consider slaughtering his only son thinking it was from Allah (irrespective of whether or not Allah actually commanded it)? !!! But my question was more specific. Pls let me know if you have any info on that. As yet, I have not come across any info. Thanks Saba