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[19:54-55 Tell also of Ishmael in the Book. He was true to his promise and was a messenger and a prophet. He exhorted his people to prayer and almsgiving, and his Lord was pleased with him.]

Salaam all

I am aware of brother Joseph's article regarding the genealogy linking the Arabs to Prophet Ishmael in which he shows clearly that Quran is silent about such  physical connection and suggests a spiritual lineage.  It is true, the physical connection is derived from the Old Testament and the Islamic Hadith literature.

Ishmael is not recognized as a prophet of God in the Bible.

Genesis
13:16  I will make your offspring like the dust of the earth, so that if anyone could count the dust, then your offspring could be counted.

16:9  Then the angel of the LORD told her, "Go back to your mistress and submit to her."
16:10  The angel added, "I will so increase your descendants that they will be too numerous to count." to Hagar

17:16  will bless her and will surely give you a son by her. I will bless her so that she will be the mother of nations; kings of peoples will come from her."
17:17  braham fell facedown; he laughed and said to himself, "Will a son be born to a man a hundred years old? Will Sarah bear a child at the age of ninety?"
17:18  And Abraham said to God, "If only Ishmael might live under your blessing!"
17:19  Then God said, "Yes, but your wife Sarah will bear you a son, and you will call him Isaac. I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him.
17:20  And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation.

21:13  I will make the son of the maidservant into a nation also, because he is your offspring."


19:54-55  Tell also of Ishmael in the Book. He was true to his promise and was a messenger and a prophet.  He exhorted his people to prayer and almsgiving, and his Lord was pleased with him.

Ancient House of God [Baitul 'Atiq] rebult as Kabah by father and son, proclaiming a pilgrimmage to it, Abraham prays

2:129  Our Lord, send forth to them a messenger of their own to recite Your revelations to them, to teach them the Scripture and wisdom, and purify them. You are the Mighty, the Wise One.

It is in the light of  2:129, the traditions claim that Prophet Muhammad has allegedly said  'the prayer of my father Abraham'

Salaam Wakas,

Like you, we are all trying to go where Quranic evidence takes us.

if you (plural) are prevented from completing hajj/3umra, then how can you ensure the hady reaches its mahilla?

Either you do it yourself or a reliable person you hire does it for you.  Only after the sacrificial offering prohibitions end.  I do not know all the details.  Never got a chance to do it myself.  I am sure there are many do's and don'ts and how's.  I am just going by the steps mentioned in the Quran according to my understanding.  When I asked you why you are against the traditional understanding of Hajj, I only meant Hajj is Hajj in Kabah and not the annual Islamic conference.  As far as shaving and cutting is concerned, you do whatever applies to you. Shave head and beard or cut hair before and after ihram.  Shaving during ihram 'breaks' it like breaking the fast before its time.  There is penalty.

Peace Wakas,

Certainly, God has confirmed His messenger's vision* with truth/reality, surely you (plural) will enter al masjid al haram (the inviolable time of acknowledgement/SJD), if God wills, securing/trusting, unburdening/relieving your chiefs/representatives, and restraining/relinquishing not fearing. So, He knew what you did not know, and He made besides that a victory near/close.
* Arabic: 'al ruya' (dream/vision), see 17:1-7 and 17:6

48:27  Here is an example of being intercepted by a war or hostility that prevents one from completing the hajj duty.  The kafaroo hindered the Prophet from visiting the Ka'bah and the offering, being detained by them, has not reached their place of sacrifice 22: 33 and the Prophet had to return.  The vision of performing the Hajj in safety in a state of ihram in the near future  is made good to him by God.   Prophet does not know when the "near future" is, when the dream will be fulfilled, (in the meantime) God provided a Near Victory, not the "fathan mubeenan" mentioned in the first verse which probably refers to the fulfillment of the vision.

[see]

Peace sister Chadiga,

but the problem is, that spiritual leaders aren't personal trainer in  gym. Spirtuality should be for All people, not only for few individual.
hmm

Of course, that is why I said  "As far as the spiritual leaders, they cannot make you see, most they can do is make you get involved in spiritual exercises where you try to 'kill the ego' to prepare the soul for maximum absorption of divine light."  You do the work, you connect the dots and see . The trainer can only  show you the certain exercises that will give you the most benefit.  I gave such a mundane example to neutralize the mystical powers people associate with them.  It is not their fault.  Followers elevate them.  As with everything, we either use or abuse things.   

[2:196 And accomplish the Hajj and the Umrah for the sake of Allah.But if you are intercepted, then whatever offering you can afford; and do not shave your heads until the offering reaches its destination.But whoever of you is sick or has an ailment on his head, then he should offer an expiation by fasting or alms-giving or sacrificing.But when you are safe, then whoever profits by the Umrah with the Hajj, then whatever offering is easy to obtain]

Salaam Wakas,

Also, I do not see how that would necessarily make more sense than conference/symposium for example.

2:196  And accomplish the Hajj and the Umrah for the sake of Allah.

But if you are intercepted, then whatever offering you can afford; and do not shave your heads until the offering reaches its destination.

But whoever of you is sick or has an ailment on his head, then he should offer an expiation by fasting or alms-giving or sacrificing.

But when you are safe, then whoever profits by the Umrah with the Hajj, then whatever offering is easy to obtain

And complete/fulfil the conference/symposium and the visit for God.
So if you are prevented/restrained then (give) what is easy of the offering/gift and do not relieve/cancel your chiefs/representatives (of this duty) until the offering reaches its permitted/lawful place (al bayt al atiq, see 22:33),
so whoever from among you was sick (singular) or with him hurt/harm/annoyance from his chief then redeem from abstinence/fast or charity or observance.

You say symposium/conference, I say Hajj with 4 steps to accomplish
ihram- not in Quran, means to make certain things haram for yourself until you complete your rites- that is a stage of soul purification where you withhold your anger, hate, sex drive, swearing, killing involved with the physical part of yourself.   your mind and soul is focused on God in ihram state.
tawaf 2:158
sa'yi 2:158
arafat  2:198

You say visit, I say Umrah 2:158

But if we cannot accomplish the above because of some unforeseen events like war, accidents, sickness, then whatever sacrificial offering we can afford, offer where detained, then you are allowed to shave, a symbol of getting out of ihram going back to your life with your physical needs.  But if you have a physical problem with your head that requires shaving, for example, you are hurt and need stitches to the head where a part needs to be shaved during ihram, not after sacrificial offering, then offer either additional sacrifice, charity, or fasting for expiation.  Another scenario, you were prevented completely from participating yet conditions improved and now you are ready to perform your duty, then do Umrah and if you cannot find an offering, then do the fasting of 3 days at the location and 7 more days when you return home if you do not reside in the vicinity and have come  from far off places. you are not in ihram during umra.

Are you rejecting this understanding just for the sake of rejecting tradition?  I do not deny Hajj only peel layers to get to the core.

Salam Wakas,

How about approaching the subject from a spiritual perspective.  Many of the rites of Hajj can be explained symbolically like wearing of ihram indicates an artificial barriers we set up by the material of our clothing or running between Safa and Marwa could point out to our readiness to come running in carrying out God's commands with the urgency as opposed to procrastination or assembling at Arafat can be reminder of our inevitable assembly before God.  Why not shaving head or cutting hair mean that it is time now to pay attention to your physical needs when you neglected them before because you were paying attention to the cares of your soul?  Makes much more sense to me than symposiums/conferences.  Just another perspective.

Peace

Salaam Sardar,

I agree with you that those two movements are part of the salat. Prostration  in recognition of His glory and bowing in recognition of our own insignificance.  In addition, bowing can also be understood as responding to the adam in each of us, not acting arrogantly, giving his due whatever it may be.

Peace

Salaam Truth Seeker,

I have read that certain Sufi groups do have concepts where they chant their way to a higher plane so that they are 'one with God and He is one with them' in a literal sense.

Others have the idea that their spiritual leaders have 'special knowlege' that can only be passed on to others after they have served under their teacher for many many years. This is very worrying for me.

People have different stations [ lawwamah, mulhimah, mutma'innah, radiyah, mardiyah] and consciousness thus every experience is different. Are the seeing and the blind the same?  Outside of the Paradise, most cannot realize the Divine Presence.  The quest, seeking must be spiritual.  The vision of God is for the eye of the heart.  As far as the spiritual leaders, they cannot make you see, most they can do is make you get involved in spiritual exercises where you try to 'kill the ego' to prepare the soul for maximum absorption of divine light. like personal trainer in a gym. some are good some are not just like some seekers are more receptive than others.

Salaam Chadiga,

I see these terms manifesting in the Prophet Abraham.
how you see this terms manifesting in prophet abraham? i don't understand, sorry.

Sorry for confusing you.   [Insan al- kamil] operates on two planes: horizontal by extending oneself into the universal life which is that of all beings and vertical by coming out from ego grip and projecting the will into God's. In fact, I was stuck couldn't move because I wanted to move up and sideways at the same time.  Abraham was able to transcend the linear move and expand up first.

it is this view of God, what i'm completly not agree with. Sufismus states - as Buddhismus too- that we and God(or the 'nothing' or 'universal power' ) can be one-what lead to the conclusion from satanist: that in fact we ARE God. What else is the claim from Sufis leader /saints/holy priests to become ONE WITH GOD??? for me blasphemy

For the Sufi, to follow the prophet means to extend the soul to the life of all beings, to 'ibadah and to dhakara with all and in all as mentioned in 17:44  and also means reduce the soul to the divine remembering of the one soul 2:25

The Sufi wants neither "to be God" as in the extinction/fana concept ; nor "to be other than God" as in the permanence/baqa concept.  There is no fana in God without universal charity and there is no baqa in God without submission to the Origin.  Prophet represents both universality and primordiality just like islam is everywhere and which has always been.

Hope hopes that this is a bit clearer.

[Indeed those who are near to your Rabb, do not express pride in performing His worship, declare His glory and to Him they perform sajdah.]

Peace Sardar,

22:77 O You who have chosen to be graced with belief! Bow down, prostrate, and serve your Lord. And do good to the society so that you may prosper. [Rukoo‟ (Bowing) and Sajdah (Prostration) are not confined to the ritual physical motions. They convey a more   sublimemessage of being humble and submitting to God‟s commands\]

Bow down to Allah in humility and perform SAJDAH

7:206 Inna allatheena AAinda rabbika la yastakbiroona AAan AAibadatihi wayusabbihoonahu walahu yasjudoona
Indeed those who are near to your Rabb, do not express pride in performing His worship, declare His glory and to Him they perform sajdah.

[Satan was correct in his assessment of them and they all followed him except for a band of true believers]

Peace Duster,

He did not know.  It was conjecture," thann"  see 37:20  Satan was correct in his assessment of them and they all followed him except for a band of true believers

Peace ladies,

Prophet Muhammad is not only al-Insan al-Kamil "Whole Man" but also the  al-Insan al-Qadim (Ancient Man).  I do not remember much now, I used to study Ibn Arabi but stopped when I realized his theory was based on a hadith that the world would not have been created without Muhammad.  Anyway, the reason I used the terminology was to point out that  the Whole or Universal Man means to come out from oneself and to project one's will into the absolutely "Other"; the Ancient or Primordial Man means to return to our substance. It is a combination for man's spatial and temporal symbolism.

I see these terms manifesting in the Prophet Abraham.

Peace to all,

In Sufi terminology, there is a term, insan al-kamil which Ibn Arabi uses it to describe the Prophet Muhammad meaning the perfect human.  It is based on hadith.  I believe the term fits Abraham better.  He represents the ideal human servant that I will never attain yet must strive to, nevertheless.  He is the one chosen as God's friend for a reason.  He was a man of staunch faith in God thus he knew that nothing could cause him harm against the will of God.  He gave us the first faith lesson with the fire incident that if we resign ourselves entirely to God, there is no need to fear or grieve,  The same lesson is repeated in the sacrifice incident. 

As 7:170 states, "We shall not deny the righteous their reward." or 9:120, "God will not deny the righteous their reward"

So what was his reward?  He was promised to be made an imam over mankind 2:124 The Jews, the Christians and even the idolatrous Arabs claimed him as their ancestor even though they did not practice his religion.  That is his legacy. Peace to you Abraham!

Peace to all,

Just wanted to share with you  Iqbal's expression of what it means to be entirely resigned to God:

To enter into Islam is to step on the altar of love for being sacrificed
People think that it is easy to become a Muslim.

Peace Joseph,

When attempting to study the Quran from the Quran, I humbly feel we must be willing to undertake a consistent, airtight approach and be willing to concede where our opinions are not formed by the Quranic narratives entirely. This would at least for me, be the most intellectually honest and sincere response. I trust, in this general sentiment that you will at least appreciate my perspective.

Thanks for taking the time to explain.  I am slow to understand. Now I've got it.