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Messages - Duster

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Discussions / Re: Belongings of Prophet Muhammad (Peace be on him)
« on: October 24, 2012, 08:11:10 AM »

“…This Quran has been revealed to me by inspiration (wahi) that I may warn you and all whom it reaches…"  I object to the translation of wahi as inspiration here in 6:19 because we are talking about a Scripture/kitab/divine words that will stay with us till the end.

Peace / shalom Hope.

How does this mean that wahiy cannot mean inspiration just because we are talking about a scripture till the end???

General Discussions / Re: Men of the Heights?
« on: October 08, 2012, 07:15:38 PM »
peace bro Joseph

Thank you so much for the detailed explanation. Very helpful indeed!!!  ;D

I guess my only concern with the 'elevated status' point of view was 7/47 as to why they were praying not to be part of the hell-fire people when they knew they had some knowledge that they were righteous. But then the explanation of the remaining humble and supporting verse 26/82 you have given is convincing ...... at least for me. I also note that in 17/79, no guarantees were given even to the prophet. This is possibly so that Allah's righteous servants always remain humble and continue to strive.


13th March 2013

This thread is now closed and a direct link to this post is now available at the dedicated Q&A page.


salaam dunster,

As I said, if there is a reason for it, then that is different.

And using just dictionaries ain't going to be much benefit either.

I can only assume you are making a general statement here, and not about my method, as I do not use "just dictionaries".

You did not answer my question to you about how to determine the role of whim/desire in such a person's choice. No matter, let me ask some further questions:

In a "living language" (i.e. one still spoken e.g. Arabic) can meanings of words change? Yes/No.

Is Al Quran the earliest extant work of Classical Arabic prose that we have in our possession today?

If you answer "yes" to both of the above, then clearly for believers in Quran, it is of paramount importance to determine how Al Quran uses its words. Once we recognise this, it is simply a matter of putting the evidence on the table and weighing the evidence for potential word choices.

Lastly, you may, apparently, disagree with my method, but my method is far more than what you imply it to be, so it would be more correct to say you disagree with a part of my method. Reflect.

Peace bro wakas,

Please see my answers to your questions >>>

If someone doesn't know the Arabic language, then it will only be whim / desire how they interpret the Quran. I have seen many groups do this and come up with all sorts of meanings. They all feel that their meanings slot best.

Yes, meanings of words do change in a living language, but they are usually properly documented or known. The problem arises when new meanings are given to words that Arabs have long used which don't have much trace in that context. How 1000 years of Arabs missed a particular understanding when it their language beats me. Not convincing and I am 'reflecting'. Yes - I disagree with your method.

I am not sure that the 'al Quran' is simply prose as does have some rhythmical structure to it. That at least is clear to anyone listening to it in Arabic.

What I am saying is that there should be a reason for it, whether it be logic, idiom etc.

peace bro wakas

I don't think that's right. When we write or speak in a certain language we don't ask the logic / reason behind why a word is used the way it is in different situations. Those that speak the language just know how those meanings are used in different situations.

For example in English, 'charge' has many meanings. I would know that I can use it as follows:

An electrical charge
Charge like a bull
A payment charge
Take charge of a situation
Being charged with a crime

However, what you are suggesting is similar to someone who doesn't know English and to come along and question the logic behind why 'charge' has been used in different ways and then question the logic. If you don't know the language, you ain't gonna have a clue. And using just dictionaries ain't going to be much benefit either.

That is why knowledge of the language is important. If you don't know the language thoroughly ...properly enough, then breaking up the words to see which one 'slots best' is only going to be based on personal desire / whims etc of the person who doesn't know the language.

This is where I really don't agree with your method bro. The risk here is that people start making up new meanings to words. Sorry but I sense something really ain't right here.

General Discussions / Men of the Heights?
« on: October 02, 2012, 01:59:46 AM »
salaam / peace / shalom all

In 7/46, who are these men of the heights? Any thoughts welcome.

Thanks brother Joseph. Very useful explanation!


The alternative to the above linked approach is an arbitrary one, i.e. you think a word means X here, but it can mean Y there, Z there etc - you have absolutely no way of determining if you are selecting meanings based on whim/desire or sound reason/evidence, and are not using a method that is systematic/robust/falsifiable.

That is why we need to understand the Arabic language first and realize that one word in Arabic can have different meanings in different usages and contexts.

Such a method to me is unacceptable, and not the precision/logic par excellence I have experienced with Quran. Let us assume the author of Quran is God, is God not a master of relaying guidance to us in a way that is precise, verifiable, logical, coherent etc? Yes/No.

It is probably because you don't understand Arabic as a spoken language. The Quran basically spoke to the Arabic people with words that were used by them. So knowledge of the language is a first. The Quran don't teach you the language. This for me - highlights the basic flaw in your Qur'anic approach brother.

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