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Messages - relearning

#46
yes  you are correct it also uses plural for males. But overall picture of quran ayats show clearly quran addresses a society in which polygamy is the most type of marriage.
#47
and one last example to support that quran must be evaluated within the surroundings it was sent i.e cultural social local historical frame of the society it was sent to and that it is not in totally in compliant with every ages' understading and terms. It has universal directives but besides that it has lots of parts which must be evaluated according to the historical, cultural social and time frame it is surrounded by:

2:223
Your women are a tillage for you, so come to your tillage as you will, and send ahead for your souls, and be Godwary, and know that you will encounter Him; and give good news to the faithful.

here it says your women implying polygamy of of arabic culture. Also it is using again manly view of the women. Men were always dominant in arabic society at that time (still now i guess). From todays' point of view many might claim it is objectifying women or putting them in a second level after the men in the society.

I do believe that quran has universal values but besides that it has many parts that must be evaluated according to our unique situations in time and history and space. Without using our minds to derive from quran and to bring new modern outcomes to answer today's needs our society will be threatened by sects like isis or similar ones. We must withdraw from the statemens such as quran's ayats are utmost decisons and end of history that everything is stated all we must to is to adhere its solutions. Instead we must understand that there are basic seeds of solutions in quran which aimed to solve firstly in the area it was sent according to their customs. We must see the patterns and update these seeds to become a solution tree according to the needs of different cultures and times needs. So my view of quran just has not final say on human history but it gives some light, som clues for people who want to use their mind. Otherwise it becomes a source of dogma like the present situation of islamic societies.
#48
9:28 O you who have believed, indeed the polytheists are unclean, so let them not approach al-Masjid al-Haram after this, their [final] year. And if you fear privation, Allah will enrich you from His bounty if He wills. Indeed, Allah is Knowing and Wise.

9:29 Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.
#49
" If truth stands clear from error then there's no need for the state to prevent ideological expression." i have an objection to this. For example in internet can a state allow some news group to spread fake and false news although it is true that truth stands clear from error these kind of spreading erroneous news or information would not be tolerated even within secular states. so if one god is truth and paganism is error and deserves punishment then i dont believe (personally may support) an islamic country would allow this based on quran teachings which is threatining idolatry.
#50
to continue support my view i would like to give another example as well.  suratul masad number: 111.

111:1 May the hands of Abu Lahab be ruined, and ruined is he.
111:2 His wealth will not avail him or that which he gained.
111:3 He will [enter to] burn in a Fire of [blazing] flame
111:4 And his wife [as well] - the carrier of firewood.
111:5 Around her neck is a rope of [twisted] fiber.

so as we do believe quran is fully detailed and succinct and mostly here we dont tolerate second resources (islamic history and hadeeths) as creditable. Here are some questions:

Who is abu lahab and his wife?
Why they were threaten such terrifying way? What did they do? Even satan, devil is not threatened that way anywhere in quran.
What did they to deserve such blazing fires so what we should to avoid such horrifying end?
What is the crime of the wife apart from being the wife of abu lahab?

we have no information nothing. If quran was timeless and spaceless these issues wouldnot come into mind ever. These two figures only known to the local arabs of living in the era of prophet.

#51
amira i personally may support your view but could you bring some ayats to support that both muslims and pagan can live peacefully both spreading their religion from quran.
#52
dear ilker i am from turkey as well in istanbul. here is another one i share with you to support my time and history frame:

58:3 (mücadele suresi)
And those who pronounce thihar from their wives and then [wish to] go back on what they said - then [there must be] the freeing of a slave before they touch one another. That is what you are admonished thereby; and Allah is Acquainted with what you do.

Here thihar is a custom of arab men did in the past by saying their wifes your back is like my mother's back and hence produce a divorce statement. but quran says if you do this free a slave. These both practises of thihar and freeing slave is an old world local custom.
#53
when reading quran i got the feeling that it aims to create an islamic society. It is purpose is not to create individuals not related each other moving freely by their own. Even at the time of migration muslims who didnt choose to migrate are scolded in quran. So i am not sharing your view that islamic society is a made up religion.

but thanks for sharing your views.
#54
Ayats for fighting pagans:

But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful." (trans. Yusuf Ali).

for example ayats dealing with slave girls.

Ayats for waiting period after divorce.

Ayats for cutting hands of thiefs. Or ayats for prisoning or whipping for fornification or adultery. Ayats for handing a murderer to the victim's family (And do not kill the soul which Allah has forbidden, except by right. And whoever is killed unjustly - We have given his heir authority, but let him not exceed limits in [the matter of] taking life. Indeed, he has been supported isra 33)

Ayats for promising golden bracelets silver dressings for men, or girls waiting in tents all are aiming arabic culture.

we can take the general guideline not the literal ones for example prepare horses for the future wars. (8:60
And prepare against them what force you can and horses tied at the frontier, to frighten thereby the enemy of Allah and your enemy and others besides them, whom you do not know (but) Allah knows them; and whatever thing you will spend in Allah's way, it will be paid back to you fully and you shall not be dealt with unjustly.) But instead we draw general guidelines by using our mind that now we know that we must use todays weapons ready for defense.

"Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great" is also becoming obsolete in todays world women also becoming members of working class and even some maintaining their family instead of men.

inheritance for men having two whereas female taking one part in todays society it is already obsolete.

Usury or interest ban. Todays modern world stands upon the financial system of which usery is the backbone of it. And all islamic society came out with is profit share which is just a masking name of interest names in banks.

Ayats dealing with your wife when they are in dissented view or they dont obey you the procedure is to give advice to seperate beds and in the end to beat. This ayat mainly aims arabic society with poligamy because if it is not the second option of seperating bed with wife for todays monogamy is only a punishment to husband but in that era of the world man had more than one wife so seperating beds would have an impact on wife.

These are some i can remember. By the way ilker are you from turkey because i am and from your name i deducted this.
#55
My general understanding of quran that it is direct audience is the arabians lived in the era of its revelation. Not everything in it concerns us accept general guidelines. Quran must be understood in a historical frame which is bound by time and place of it is origin. I dont take everything literally from quran therefore your being feeling guilty or not regarding being doubtfull of anything in quran for my humble view is unnecessary.
#56
my two cents is that: Quran's direct audience is arabs of its revelation time. So quran speaks in term of their understanding of prize and punishments. Giving examples for local arabs (not universal i believe in this respect). So accepting them as metaphors solves my problem of such ayats.
#57
thanks your kindly reply. my question in its own frame points a dilemma in an islamic society. your points are a different subject. I say for example would you be please that in an islamic society (is not it an aim for believers by the way) will you or other muslims be very ok with idolators to spread their religion and practise it. That is the question. you may answer yes am pleased with it or no i am not.

i am not assuming there is no idolworship in an islamic society. But i am not relating any sect to idolworship it seems unfair to me. But your points distracts my frame of question to another level dear friend. i also believe someone without any religion can have a good relationship with god. But it is different than what i ask here. I dont believe of being priviledged by born in anyway. bu simply please answer my question thanks.

#58
General Discussions / Re: Noah's Age 950 Years
April 13, 2017, 02:36:36 PM
well what attracts my attention is that people in the history who are accompanied to great prophets and were shown great miracles how can they go on refusing such signs. they must be so headless or so uncapable of understanding the true signs. When we review early human history it is easy to spot that people of old times easily given a high statue like 'god' to sun moon stars even natural phenomenons even stones. So how come these people can be so much reluctant not to believe a miracle which is just happening right in front of them considering for example noah living 950 years or in the event of other prophet's miracles a simple example jesus making bird from clay and by blowing it turns to be a living bird or in the event of abraham fire not touching him. Or moses many signs and miracles brought but only few following him. So what makes these ordinary people to easily accept stones stars moon sun fire gods easily but resist mindlessly such open signs miracles! is it because human kind in its nature irrational? or so obvious signs make him suspicous about it? like the saying "the only free cheese is in the mouse trap". is there a bug in human mind? =)
#59
yahya are you from turkey? doubt is essential in human life without doubt at first you cant reach any certainity it encourages you to dig everything around you and put them into scrutiny double check them etc. so having doubts is no threat to your belief i believe. Actually you must have doubt! I dont think god will like people whom are like sheep following mindlessly who is infront of them. so even challenging god sincerely is the way to go i think that will even please god i believe. so keep having doubts and sincerely continue to search the truth even it is in contradiction to what you have belived so far. by the way turkish people can we get in touch in a specific forum subject here?
#60
General Discussions / Re: 5:101 and 57:14
April 13, 2017, 02:19:36 PM
yahya are you from turkey? doubt is essential in human life without doubt at first you cant reach any certainity it encourages you to dig everything around you and put them into scrutiny double check them etc. so having doubts is no threat to your belief i believe. Actually you must have doubt! I dont think god will like people whom are like sheep following mindlessly who is infront of them. so even challenging god sincerely is the way to go i think that will even please god i believe. so keep having doubts and sincerely continue to search the truth even it is in contradiction to what you have belived so far. by the way turkish people can we get in touch in a specific forum subject here?