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Messages - relearning

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General Discussions / Re: is quran crystal clear?
« on: August 16, 2016, 03:09:59 PM »
When determining if something is "clear" or not - is this subjective? yes/no

If it is subjective then it is not universal that means it is not crystal clear then.

and also your evidence of using this ayat missing one point. This ayat puts prophet in the center aiming him. We are not him. We are not the direct addressee of this sentence. So using this evident is pointless for us muslims who are more than a thousand years away from the historical context of the prophets time. So as we need history we need every bits of information to enlighten the meanings of quran for us. So missing context of both historical time frame of quran is the main obstacle stands in front of us to understand it.

Yes but first of all ask yourself do you have to? Are you forced to become a believer? Or is it a result of a choice? I mean you were born in a society which had fixed ideas and beliefs a religion and as you live among them you are shaped by them. Where is free will? So even your life adventure of reaching reality truth is also valuable i think. It is not just accepting the confort having the idea that you are in the winner side just because you were born in that society and accepted their all belief without any scrunity. So even at the end you turn up an atheist or teist or deist or a muslim or a budisth whatever if it is a result of sincere work it will pay off somewhere i believe. 

General Discussions / Re: is quran crystal clear?
« on: July 29, 2016, 05:57:24 PM »
yes i am familiar but that doesnt stop many diverse-opposite opinions about the muhkam ayats as well. so would you kindly visit the numbered articles and reply  or just forget it =)

Peace relearning.

What you say below contradicts Qoran, quote:

Just wanted to point out this: with historical, social and time context you can have a better understanding of quran. So using sensible hadeeth which arenot contradicting with qurans clear guidelines hadeeth can also help to some degree o understand its context. Rejecting hadeeth completely is kinda turning your back to an invaluble historical evidences.

Qoran claims that GOD s words are sufficient and no other source is needed:
وَاتلُ ما أوحِىَ إِلَيكَ مِن كِتابِ رَبِّكَ لا مُبَدِّلَ لِكَلِمٰتِهِ وَلَن تَجِدَ مِن دونِهِ مُلتَحَدًا

You shall preach/recite... what is revealed to you from your Lord. Nothing shall replace/abrogate His words. And you should not find/use any other source.

GOD bless you.

Salam good logic i disagree with you we need sources other than quran even to study quran. Turning to a dictionary will be even against the logic which comes from your interpretation of the ayat. its by the way 18:27 in my quran you stated 19:27. Quran only approach has its flaws which starts when you see that in order to understand quran you need mortal people's books, dictionaries and writers of such books even dont have to be saints or prophets or messengers they can even be non muslims. Quran asks us to use our mind, logic, to wander around the earth to see what happened old societies even this requires sciences such as history, Archaeology etc.

Sorry for writing in sequences but one final note which strikes me that when quran gives authority to male over her wife it lists three action that he can take as a measure towards disloyal wife.
1-Rebuke them
2-Seperate their beds
3-Hit them

I want to focuse on option 2. If it was a society in which monogamy was dominant then this sanction actually is against the male. It would be like punishing male instead of mean taking into notice of sexual desires of male and femaly anatomy. But if it is a polygamy it makes very sense because of jealousy between wifes in order to be his favour. (yes women nature again)

Just wanted to point out this: with historical, social and time context you can have a better understanding of quran. So using sensible hadeeth which arenot contradicting with qurans clear guidelines hadeeth can also help to some degree o understand its context. Rejecting hadeeth completely is kinda turning your back to an invaluble historical evidences.

Islamic Duties / Re: Is Using Miswak is Sunna do we have to follow?
« on: April 07, 2016, 07:51:10 PM »
Some say using Miswak before Salaat as was done by our prophet therefore we have to follow as Sunnah? Thanks for sharing.

It was a tool which was used at the time and before the Prophet by people for teeth cleaning. It was what was available for them for their time and technology. What you shouldnt miss is the aim of using this it is:cleaning ones' teeth before praying. Therefore main theme here is being clean as you are a muslim who lives in this century to clean your teeth you have very modern ways at your disposal. Though it is your personal choice and right to use either mswak or modern tools.

I should also add that in divorcing process firstly men are given the order when you divorce your wifes.. (it firstly addressing male sexes because they are in charge they are the main addressee of the quran this feeling you will get when you read quran throghly. Also it states it never sent female prophets 016:043) so it has a male centric view which coincides with the fact that arabs were and are a male dominant society.

Without historical and social context you cant understand
1-beating wifes in case of their being disloyal 4:34 It was a man dominated society it was given authority over women.

2-and maidens with swelling breasts, like of age, 78:33 Arabs used to marry girls at their very early puberty ages.

3- They will be adorned therein with bracelets of gold and pearl, and their garments therein will be silk. 22:23 wearing gold and silk favoured for arabs.

4-Companions restrained (as to their glances), in (goodly) pavilions (tents) 55:72; Arabs lived in tents.

5-and all the river descriptions main theme being water which arabs lacked in deserts.

6-jinn: arabs already have a belief of jinn it was not introduced by quran as a new type of God's creature. It was believed and was seen as a source of power or to explain some phenomenons in the nature. Allah just corrected their wrong belief of seeing them as a source of power or authority beside God.

What i mean generally without understanding the context of quran which speaks to arabs at a given time and location we will lost the coordinates namely meanings of quran. Seeing quran as a timeless and locationless position giving it a situation over history of human kind is false position and it even goes against the qurans' order of to use our minds.

I dont agree with the point "a" because it is against the development. It creates dogma fixed ideas and it is the end of change both in the good and bad sense. We try to close the history of humankind by a false assumption that quran is a seal ended every dispute and again assume quran as clear as that anyone with average mind would benefit from. It is not, it's just a revelation reflected through Arabian customs and an Arabian prophet. It is not the end of human progress and development. Instead its showing us the general guidlines that we must take notice and derive from new insights which will accomodate today's needs. So any approach to quran accepting its ultimate end of human history and taking it literally will end up a great failure attempt of civilization experiment.

I agree with point "b" because everything can be expressed with relative to something. There must be a frame that something must relate and find its place so that it can have a meaning. Quran without its historical and cultural aspects wouldnt be understood. And that doesnt make it less valuable. Quran for example is in Arabic so language is a context frame a dictionary is a tool in that sense hadeeths and any historical evidence are also required to understand Quran. Again that doesnt mean to take what hadeeth and historical context say as ultimate truth.

Women / Re: Is Head covering compulsory according to Quran?
« on: April 04, 2016, 05:55:10 PM »
Salam all Head covering is not ordained by Quran it says cover your bosoms with a piece of cloth that's all. Don't go into any Hadith but follow only Quran.

you can indeed follow a hadith if it is not contradicting with Quran's clear prescriptions, orders, directives. Total rejection is as wrong as total submission.

Peace relearning.
How are humans being tested? What is a test?

Only GOD has the choice of how to test us.

The main message is the same in all the scriptures. Submission and total loyalty to GOD Alone.
Since Qoran was the last scripture ,GOD has made sure all the generations that follow will have access to it.

GOD bless you.

What are you saying about that only God has the choice of how to test us is factual or normative?

As for if the message was same then what i say why their sources werenot protected to that level of Quran so what you are claiming that all the message being same would be followed by all generations easily from all different religions. Because at the current picture religions doesnt seem to unite in this very core point but even a religion itself is being dividing into sects which increase with each day passes.

Our brains do funny things to us. Even though we say we don't follow the later Islamic traditions, we read everything through a lense.

The text says nothing about corruption of previous scripture, but because our minds have been formed by traditions, we read it as if it does.

The Qur'an being "A Guardian" implies the opposite to what is being interpreted here. Guarding something assumes that it is not corrupted. Why would the Qur'an Guard something that is corrupt? That is an insult to the Qur'an.

We can be Qu'ran centric, but reading with a starting mindset, we can be far from the Qur'ans message.


I dont mean the Quran must guard corrupted texts etc. I meant why this favour bestowed on us looking at the situation Quran contains ayat that it is under the protection of god and as it seems in the world we have one text mainly regarding quran but for other inspirations they are not given priviledge of being preserved in their original states many bible text including old and new its like through the eyes of a third human being i dont see any god talking there. Lots of canonizations gospels a diversity of sayings from old times. They are just reflections of what is left from inspirations and transferred from generation to generation like legends fables. I mean would not you envy Quran's physically being guarded if you were a jew or christian? Or what i understand from being guarded regarding quran is wrong and there is no promise for text to be guarded by god?

So are we guilty, are we sinner, for not doing this, while our Muslim brothers and sisters suffer terribly ? I'm really depressed by these thoughts !

You are depressed because you are isolating verses from context of history and time. You are just making something a problem of yours which you have no authority power to solve instead it keeps you away achieving your responsibilities taking that you are a young man in that case either from your education or your business or from family responsibilities. When the war decreed upon muslims it was the prophet by whom God ordained this task. Also it was not untill muslim community reached a mini level of state which has boundaries and a leader and army. The task was not event decreed when they were in Macca. You are isolating verses and then pretending as if the ayat which you read just pointing out you then seeing that you cant act according to what it asks from you you get depressed. What you can do best is to evaluate your situation and act from a wider angle which would produce results even in the long term. People dont want to take the longer term tasks but just want quick solutions in that case yours is just to go to syria kill a few ISIS members and then get killed. I think this is useless and fighting with mosquito while ignoring the swamp!

And i dont think we are sinners just because you dont see we fit one ayat you interpret that way. You may say you feel as sinner because of your understading though I still dont agree. But you may be a sinner because you label your religion brothers as sinners because of the way you understand from Quran which actually having the same terrible understading of ISIS members according to whom we are all sinners! So while you blame ISIS you are also carrying the same type of logic that your understading of quran give you a right to label as sinners. I think first you have to fight with the invisible ISIS understanding which is in your mind. Sorry i was hard on you but i dont mean to hurt you it just you are even behaving like ISIS but just you  dont have a gun to point to us and say like ISIS instead you say it with words for the time being. What future holds we cant be sure! =)

Islamic Duties / Re: a question about the "middle prayer"
« on: March 31, 2016, 07:18:23 PM »
no your english is ok better than mine it looks! Anyway what i said Quran could easily solve timing or the number of prays in a day by just making it easy for the believers a mass population most of them consists average lay persons like me. But As Quran claims its crystal clear it explains fully detailed and then we have had such situations that it comes to the point: Quran is not crystal clear of one hundred percent and did not explain everything fully. Quran is a holy book but it has a frame of time and space a historical context. Without this in mind we would face contradictions because in one side we will see that Quran claims it is fully explaining everything related religion and in the other side millions of people divided even just because of one word which might imply some dualities or which quran avoided to give clear instructions or explanations for both contemporary and future generations of believers or nonbelievers as well. As i said in my example have you seen any believer to argue what provisions did jews ask from god thorugh moses? because there is no space for commenting over a fully explained matter. But when it comes to matters such timings and number of daily prays, women's rights and garments and of beating them because of their ill-conduct, polygamy numbers and conditions, prisoners of war and rights of women among them, divorcing terms and conditions, age of marriage, women's testimony, inheritage, punishments regarding thiefs, apostates, waging war against disbelievers, freedom of religion etc. Now one may say these are all explained by my scholar or teacher or sect leader then there are others who explained it in the other way around. So there is a text which have space for different views and conclusions draw from it. So my idea is to put quran into context bound by time and historical facts. For example i was very much shocked confused when i heard omar second caliph when he didnt act according to ayat of 9:60 regarding giving zakat to the ones whose heart inclined to islam as he said it was when we were weak now that we are strong we dont need it. Or when he said he wont cut the hands of thiefs because either there was a famine or people were not supporting poor in the society enough. So in both cases context and benefit of society is considered by Omar. That means we dont have a fixed dogmas but we have flexibility in determining what rules we can implement which doesnt have to be word by word with quran but in harmony with its general guiding.

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