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Messages - Mubashir

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Dear Br Daniel

You mention Paul introducing certain changes in Christianity to make it acceptable to new converts and to increase it's appeal.

Can we then not assume that he violated the commands of Jesus and rationalized his way into theology? Many people suggest that Christianity that exists today should be called Pauline Christianity and only based on selective application of what Jesus preached, taught and practiced.

We find a similar approach with Ahmedi Muslims who, through reinterpretation of Quranic verses and hadith reports justify the "reformation" of Islam through a Nabi after Muhammad named Mirza Ghulam Qadiani.

Thanks for your response Brother Daniel.

We do not have a definitive biography of Muhammad that proves existence of Waraqa. What is reported may or may not be true. We find such stories in secondary sources that Waraqa the Christian was the one who confirmed the Nabuwwat of Muhammad and Moses was the one who sent Muhammad back in the Mairaj story to bargain with Allah to reduce the number of prayers from 50 to 5 !!

Seems these were planted to prove that importance of Christian and Jewish sources to the ministry of Muhammad !!

I refrain from commenting on such stories as I have no way of confirming how true they are. If I find some support in the Quran referring to an incident reported in history, I may consider the possibly of it being true keeping my eyes wide open to read what is the underlying message there. Historical references in the Quran, as you know are there for us to learn some lessons.

As Paul had no interaction with any Muslim, I respectfully fail to see how the verse you quoted would apply to Muslims. I do concede, that an inference may be drawn from it, which I suspect you have done.

Thanks anyway.

General Discussions / Demand for Sharia Law
« on: February 10, 2014, 02:48:54 AM »

We read much these days, about demands for Sharia law in countries like Tunisia, Libya, Egypt, Yemen, Syria. Presently the Taliban in Pakistan are negotiating with the government to implement Sharia without delay.

My question is what is meant by Sharia law? Is it not based on different schools of fiqh? How best could it be implemented in the modern nation state? What would be the form of government? Would there be an Amir al Momineen for each Muslim country or a Khalifa? How practical and realistic is that (One Khalifa of a certain sect may not be acceptable to people of other sects). How would the state machinery function? How about the rights of women? Would they be allowed to work? How will the state deal with it's non Muslim minorities? Would they be required to pay jizya? Some define jizya as war reparations!
Would the state force people to pray? Will polygamy be allowed? How about the minimum age of marriage for girls? What would be the dress code for men and women? How would Shias fare in a Sunni state and vice versa given the nature of their bitter disagreements? What about their respective interpretation of Islamic law?

Those who want Sharia, point to Islamic punishments, the need to establish an interest free society, social welfare projects, the rights of the poor for sustenance and justice and say that the Quran clearly states that those who do not rule/judge according to the Quran are deviants.

Kindly comment. Thanks.

Dear Daniel, you wrote:

".....Former Books, where 1 Cor 7:17 commands 5 X for those of the circumcision (ie. Islam)  not to leave the circumcision, and those not of the circumcision are to be considered as a part of "The Ummah". The Bible says that is not important, living the life of submission (islam with small "i" )to God is what is important (1 Cor 7)..."

I think that "for those of the circumcision" in the above verse refers to the Jews and not Muslims, who where no were in existence at that time.

Not relating to the subject, but when we read the NT we don't find Jesus eating pork or consuming alcohol.  I have always wanted to know how then, can Christians justify choose not to follow some of the OT laws which Jesus (as I understood) did not revoke?


Dear Alta

The Quran, in my humble opinion, was referring to a current verifiable practice. History, being what it is, has it's controversies and quite debatable when did this practice emerge among the Christians.

Just my two cents !

General Discussions / Re: How best to respond to this objection?
« on: February 10, 2014, 01:17:21 AM »
Br. Sardar, Sorry for the delayed reply.

I know that there are a few Quranists who explain certain events in the Quran a particular way to prove that Allah does not change His laws, therefore there is no possibility of miracles. Besides, they suggest, Allah clearly states that to those bent on rejection, no miracle is enough. Which leads me to believe that the possibility of a miracle is acknowledged by Allah SWT.

Then there other Quran centrics, who believe that Allah can suspend His Laws of nature if and when He wills, therefore, the birth of Jesus, splitting of the sea, the staff turning into a snake, the chopping of four birds and then regaining life, is possible. They also refer to similar Biblical narratives and reason that if those were to be taken allegorically, Allah would have made that clear but that is not the case.

Not related to miracle, but relating to theology, Allah deemed it important to clarify that the notion of Trinity found in the New Testament is wrong and that Jesus is not divine. Point is that He corrects some wrong notions that people of the Book had. However, He did not do that for miracles.

Now, for the argument by Hadith believers that if most Quran centric have no problem believing in super natural events in the Quran, why do they not extend the same to Hadith stories?

I think the reply to them is that of the source of information. We know that the Quran is from Allah from the internal testimony it contains, therefore we believe in it.  We cannot say the same for Hadith books as neither they claim to be Allah's Word, nor Allah or His Nabi certifies them as divinely inspired books. They exist in two different versions (Shia and Sunni) and both sects claim to be the real Muslims based on their favorite books. These books were written down, based on hearsay generations after the Quran. When Allah declared completion of Deen, they were nowhere to be found. The first four caliphs did not make it an urgent business of theirs to collect, verify, compile and publish them for all times to come. They were smart enough to know what happens to stories based on hearsay over time and over generations!

For the Quran centric, to avoid taking hadith books as an authority in Deen should not be based solely on questioning certain super natural events described therein. They should have much more solid rational reasons, some of which I have listed above. Others have been explained on this forum by much more learned friends on this forum.


Just a quick question to those who enjoy Quran recitations.

Is it permissible to recite the words of our Lord and Master in a singing fashion? Granted the recitation has rhythm to it, but is this even appropriate? This is a serious message of warning and hope and a guide for proper behavior and our relationship to Allah SWT and His Messengers.

If we are working for a company, would we read the rules and regulation of the company in a singing way? How would the owner of the company react?

Just asking, and please don't get upset.

We hold Quran recitation competitions. Don't we need Quran comprehension competitions more then recitation competitions?

Thanks for referring us to Br Joseph's article Duster. He writes:

"...(1) Please do your best to try to learn the language if you can. There is nothing better than accessing the Quran directly for yourself. However, be aware that the Quranic Arabic is not spoken today. It is a classical dialect / language and the vernacular of the Quraish who were a specific people of a specific time. .."

Wonder if that particular dialect is still in existence today in Saudi ?

Salam Sis Saba.

I get your point about Dr Shabbir leaning more towards Salat the system than Salat the prayer. I am basing my opinion after reading Dr Shabbir's comments such as:

"...Ritual prayer or Namaaz was a small part of Aqamatis-Salaat, i.e. establishing the System that facilitates the following of Divine Commands.

• The ritual prayer was always congregational.
• Women and men both formed this congregation, women on the right side of men.
• The frequency and timing of the congregations were determined by the State as needed. It was never fixed as five times a day ritual.
• Namaaz was performed with the Emir (governor) reciting some verses from the Qur’an relevant to the situation at hand as the congregation listened to him. The Emir would recite a few verses in the standing position as did the congregation behind him.
• Masjid was not a temple of worship. It was the Assembly, the School, the Municipality, the Parliament and the Government House. So, after that recitation, the leader and people would discuss real issues about the community, entertain questions, present bills, announce decisions of the Shura (Counsel) and the Assembly would legislate. People came up with their ideas addressing the problems facing the community and for betterment of the society. Masjid was also the place where the leaders were elected..."

My point was that he does not completely reject Salat the prayer. BTW Parwez always prayed and I find that Dr Shabbir believes that was not the case, quite odd. Br Joseph has posted an Urdu video where Parwez explains his take on Namaz.

Yes, I have had several disagreements with other members of ourbeacon forum over this issue but at the end I have been allowed to agree to disagree! Needless to say there are those who do agree with me.

All the best !  :)

Thanks for commenting Sisters!

No scholar is perfect and Dr Shabbir has his share of strengths and weakness. With respect to Salat, if I have understood him correctly, he says it covers the ritual prayer but encompasses a much wider concept.

Personally, when reading the Quran, I visit the following website which has about 40 translations running together. If one does not make sense to me or appears contradictory or influenced by hadith (or Shaan e Nuzool) stories, I have an option to read others.

I find it quite useful and highly recommend to those of us who do not speak the language and even those who do.


In his preface to QXP (Quran as it explains itself, Dr. Shabbir writes:

The author of the Qur’an is none but Almighty God. Before the reader is an
English rendition of the Glorious Book by Shabbir Ahmed (1947 to ?) an
ordinary servant of God.

The work, although close to translation, is more of an understanding from
within the Qur’an itself. This Divine Writ calls itself An-Noor (the Light) and
light needs no extrinsic sources to show itself. Therefore, I have based my
presentation on two principles:

1. Focusing on the language in which the Qur’an was revealed.
2. Making use of Tasreef, that is, how the Qur’an repeats its messages from
very diverse vantage points.

A diligent study of the Book using Tasreef helps us look at the Qur’an in its
Big Picture, and this method gives us a phenomenal advantage toward its

I have rendered the terms and linguistics of the Qur’an using the Quraish
(Quresh) dialect of Makkah since it is the Arabic dialect in which the Qur’an
was revealed to the exalted Muhammad bin Abdullah, the Final Prophet,
Messenger and Apostle of God. [570-632 CE]

19:97 And only to this end We have made this (Qur’an) easy to understand in
your own tongue (O Prophet). That you might convey thereby glad news to the
righteous and warn people given to futile disputation.

Being a young member of the Saudi royal medical staff, I had the good fortune
of learning the Quraish dialect in the 1970s under the auspices of King Faisal
bin Abdul Aziz and King Khalid bin Abdul Aziz of Saudi Arabia. I was blessed
with the opportunity to learn Islamic theology in the University of Madinah
after having learnt the subject under the guidance of the celebrated names of
Qari Baqaullah and ‘Maulana’ Ehtishamul Haq Thanwi in Karachi during my
college days in the 1960s.

In addition, the opportunity to socialize with the Bedouins was certainly a
great advantage since even today they frequently speak the Quraish dialect.
Learning the dialect, by no means, amounts to absorbing the Saudi theology.
Some of the well-known western scholars who learned Arabic by socializing
with the Bedouins:

 In the 1810s - The Swiss Muslim traveler-explorer, Johann Ludwig Burckhardt
(Sheikh Ibrahim bin Abdullah 1784-1817). ..............

more at:


Would appreciate comments from those who know the language and the challenges it poses to translators.  Thanks.

Women / If such are the priests, then God bless the congregation !!
« on: February 08, 2014, 04:31:07 PM »
Maldives Fiqh Academy VP Endorses Female Genital Mutilation

By Zaheena Rasheed | February 6th, 2014

Vice President of the Fiqh Academy Dr Mohamed Iyaz Abdul Latheef has endorsed female genital mutilation in response to a question posed by a reader on

Iyaz said several credible Hadiths from the Prophet Mohamed demonstrated female circumcision is obligatory in Islam.

“The Prophet (PBUH) said: ‘Five things are part of the Fitrah [nature] – circumcision, shaving the pubes, trimming the moustache, cutting the nails and plucking the armpit hairs.’ The circumcision in this Hadith applies to both men and women,” Iyaz said.

Today is international day of zero tolerance to female genital mutilation. Executive Director of the UNFPA Dr Babatunde Osotimehin said female genital mutilation threatens the lives and futures of women and girls and is “an affront to their human dignity, an assault on their health and an impediment to the well-being of their families, communities and countries.”

“Human development cannot be fully achieved as long as women and girls continue to suffer from this human rights violation or live in fear of it,” he added.
In 2011, then Vice President Dr Mohamed Waheed Hassan expressed concern over a reported increase in female circumcision in the Maldives.
“We are beginning to hear reports of this occurring, and I have heard on radio and television people justifying the practice. It is quite disheartening,” he said at the time.

Obligatory or recommended

Islam calls for female circumcision, but there is dissent between scholars on whether circumcision is obligatory (farz) or highly recommended (Mustahab), Iyaz said.
“A Hadith relayed by Aisha [Prophet Mohamed’s wife] says: ‘A bath becomes obligatory if one sleeps with your wife and the circumcised parts touch each other.’ The word circumcision has been applied to both men and women here.  The Hadith demonstrates that women must be circumcised as well,” said Iyaz.

He also quoted Saudi Arabia’s Fatwa Committee which expressed concern over the decline of female circumcision in Muslim countries.

“Circumcision of girls is a religious obligation that is slowly fading from many Muslim communities. It is an obligation or Sunnah that we must not let go of. It is the symbol that differentiates Muslims from non-Muslims.”

The fatwa said female circumcision must be carried out by specialised doctors, and added: “In a woman, the small sliver of muscle and the surrounding skin above the urinary tract is cut during circumcision.”

Iyaz said the Prophet Mohamed has ordered circumcision practitioners not to cut severely during circumcision.
Iyaz was elected as the VP of the Fiqh Academy in 2012. The organisation is a body established by the Ministry of Islamic Affairs to advise the government on Islamic jurisprudence.

In early January, Iyaz condemned MPs for approving the sexual offenses bill which recognises marital rape, and advised MPs who voted for the bill to repent.
Zero tolerance

More than 125 million girls and women have been cut in the 29 countries in the Middle East and Africa where female genital mutilation is practiced, the UNFPA has said in a press release today.

The organisation is committed to work with partners to end harmful practices including violence against women and female genital mutilation, the UNFPA said.
“We strongly believe that when young people, especially young women claim their right to health, including sexual and reproductive health, education and decent work, they become powerful agents for social and economic development.”

Discussions / A sobering slap on the face of terror by Ghamdi
« on: September 28, 2013, 02:02:32 PM »
Dear All

With my apologies for those who do not know the Urdu language, in view of recent Peshawar Church and Nairobi Mall killing, I cannot help sharing a clip from Ghamdi:

General Discussions / How best to respond to this objection?
« on: September 27, 2013, 04:19:10 PM »
[Recently I read the following on the net, aimed at those who wish to Judge ahadith and all secondary sources by the Quran]

Many Quranites tend to point out hadith, which may seem strange or too supernatural in order to believe it. This is nothing more than an "appeal to emotion" fallacy. Here is the testimony of one Quranite who became an agnostic...

"...I was in the middle of laughing at the stories and silently mocking them, when suddenly it hit me that they are no more absurd than the belief that Jesus was born of a virgin, that Moses split the ocean and turned a stick into a snake, or that Solomon had conversations with animals..."

So here we see a Quranite who left Islam because he found the virgin birth and Solomon's conversations with animals to be absurd. These are to be found in the Qur'an. Will the Quranites accept this as an argument? They will say that these stories are not absurd and that people must put faith in them. Well then why don't the Quranites do the same with the hadith that they find strange? Who draws the objective standard as to what is too absurd to be true?

This is nothing more than an "appeal to emotion fallacy" and it is to be ignored.

Prophets and Messengers / WHAT HADITHIST WONT TELL YOU
« on: July 05, 2013, 11:49:21 AM »

The falsifiers (of the attributes, personality and deeds of our dear Prophet as described in Hadiths and other man-made literature) have presented a concoction of medieval Arab, Pagan, Jewish and Christian culture as good examples of the messenger. However, if you look at the context of the verse 33:21, the good example has been described as the messenger's courage and his constant remembrance of God. They extended this good example to irrelevant individual or cultural behaviors. For instance, they sanctified the beard and turban, ignoring the fact that the Meccan idol worshipers, such as Amr bin Hisham (aka, Abu Jahl) and Walid b. Mugiyra also had long beards and big turbans.

What is worse, the actions and words ascribed to prophet Muhammad PBUH have depicted him with a character that is far from exemplary.

The hadith books portray the prophet as a phantasmagoric character with multiple personalities. That character is more fictitious than mythological gods and goddesses, such as Hermes, Pan, Poseidon and Aphrodite. He is a pendulous character, both bouncing up to deity, and down to the lowest degree. He is both wise and moronic. He is sometimes more merciful than God and sometimes a cruel torturer.

He is both perfect and criminal, humble and arrogant, chaste and a sex maniac, trustworthy and a cheater, illiterate and educated, rich and poor, a nepotistic and a democratic leader, caring and a male chauvinist, a believer and a disbeliever, prohibiting hadith and promoting hadith.

You find numerous conflicting personalities presented as an exemplary figure. Choose whichever composite character you like out of thousands of different examples. Those with preconceived ideas may go fish out hadith to support any personality or role model they want to carve out of the hero called Muhammad PBUH.
Want a terrorist? You will find a few hadiths to justify it. He did after all, according to Bukhari, justify killing women and children in battle.

Want a lamb? You will again find a few hadiths to depict him that way. When the children of Taif stoned him, he prayed for them.
Hadith books contain almost anything you wish, especially about Muhammad PBUH. You may find an extremely kind and nice Muhammad PBUH besides a cruel torturer one.

You may find Muhammad PBUH to be a person with great morals on one page and on another page, you will see him a pedophile.
You will find Muhammad PBUH pointing at the moon and splitting it into two pieces letting one piece fall into Ali's backyard, and on another page, you will find a Muhammad PBUH incapable of reading a simple letter.

Hadith books, by their very nature, are perfect sources for such abuse. They contain fragments of hearsay that were produced within several centuries with multiple authors, numerous agendas, inconsistent language/terminology, unreliable and fragmented contexts, and divisible or severally liable authorities.

An "expert" can subject almost any hadith he dislikes to one of the rules of procedure called usul ul-hadith with multiple standards. The evaluation of the narrator by using another hearsay, partisanship, tribalism, racism, or personal scrupulousness, is called "jarh" and "tadeel" simply meaning, "trash" and "save."

For instance, the most prominent Sunni hadith collector Bukhari who grew up in Bukhara, collected hadiths two hundred or so years after the departure of Muhammad PBUH. This story collector, while bragging about how meticulous he was, claims that he once traveled for about a month to hear a particular hadith from a narrator. When he visited him, he saw him deceiving his horse to the barn with an empty bag. Consequently, our meticulous Bukhari gave up from collecting the story he was going to report! In other words, he used the tool of "jarh" (trash) to cross over that particular narrator.

Looking at the quality of the 7275 hadiths he allegedly picked out of 600,000 reported hadiths (99% defective material!), we can easily infer that he was not very lucky or did not have very good eyes in witnessing thousands of more deceivers with their horses.

Ironically, this Bukhari narrates hadith from drunkard and oppressive Umayyad governors, and hundreds of hadith from Abu Hurayra who according to Bukhari himself was considered a congenial liar and fabricator by his prominent peers such as Omar, Ibn Abbas and Aisha. Either Bukhari was himself a deceived horse or another deceiver.

Let's sidetrack here and do a simple calculation. Bukhari, in his introduction, uses a first-class sales pitch according to the standards of the medieval era. He, or the later editors and promoters of his collection, try hard to depict the portrait of a devout, genius, scrupulous, and steadfast scholar. Although his Christian counterpart, St. Paul, was more articulate and more cunning in his self-promotion, history is a witness to the fact that Bukhari has done a similarly good job in another market.

In the introduction of the collection called Bukhari, we learn that this celebrated hadith collector endured long trips, occasionally from one country to another, just to collect one hadith. We also learn that he was very careful in his evaluation of the chain of narrators; he was so pious that he performed ablution and prayed before recording each of his hadiths.

We might be surprised to see, in the same section of this solemn promotional introduction, some funny animated clips too. For instance, we learn that some of the prophet's companions witnessed a group of monkeys stoning an adulterer monkey in the jungle (perhaps that provided some inspiration and imagination for later hadiths narrations involving the story of the holy hungry goat).

Well, let’s do some calculations…

- Let's assume that Bukhari told us the truth regarding the 600,000 hadiths he listened to and evaluated.

- Let's also be extremely generous to Bukhari and assume that on average it took him only one hour to go, interview, and evaluate each of the 600,000 hadiths, 99% of which he would later trash.

- Let's assume that he started wandering around, seeking hadith narrators, listening to them, and evaluating the chain of narrators from dawn until dusk.

- Let's assume that all his days were summer days, so that he worked ten hours a day without a break.

Since we do not have any claim by Bukhari or another "holy" person regarding Bukhari's ability to inflate time, create time within time, or slow down time, we assume he worked like a super human being limited by the natural law.

With these assumptions, Bukhari who lived 60 years, between 810-870 AC, would need 60,000 days, or 164 years. In other words, he would need more than a hundred years to be able to do what he was bragging about.

Yes, this Bukhari and his ilk have hijacked Muhammad PBUH, and have replaced the light of the Quran, with the darkness of ignorance.
Arabic fancy jargon are frequently used to impress non-Arabs to overwhelm them into believing that the "experts" indeed have an incredible amount of special knowledge; perhaps specially granted by God.

The "expert" might evaluate the trustworthiness of one of the narrators listed in the chain, by various contradictory rules already established by previous hadith scholars. The hadith can then be classified in one of the numerous ranks of authenticity and thus discarded in favor of another one.

Only a handful hadiths, which are called mutawatir (allegedly narrated by many people), may escape ending up in the trash via an arbitrary scrutiny of a determined scholar.

Ironically, there is not even a consensus on the mutawatir hadiths. They do not call it "trash can" but they have invented fancy names to label how deep and stinky their cans are, labeling them mursal, hasan, daif, mawdu, etc.

If you are a muqallid, that is a blind follower of a particular sect or order, then you pick what they have already picked for you.
Your choice might be more limited with the leftover hadiths evaluated by the scholars, but you can be sure that by even staying as a muqallid in a particular sect, you will find plenty of room for wiggling around to make up your own religion.

But, you can be sure that your choices will be limited to medieval Arab, Jewish and Christian cultures. If you are living in a modern metropolitan city, you may not be able to escape developing multiple personalities separated from each other by two millennia.

Considering that most of the hadith narrations are ahad, that is allegedly narrated by only one person from Muhammad PBUH, their authenticity can always be challenged by how you may personally deem the chain of narrators and the hadith books.

This provides many opportunities to hatch and mutate numerous custom-made religions, sects, sub-sects, orders, or sub-orders out of the mishmash collection of medieval culture.

This peculiar aspect of hadith collection is well described by the prophetic verses of the Quran: "Shall we treat the muslims (peacemakers, peaceful submitters/surrenderers) like the criminals? What is wrong with your judgment? Do you have a book where you can find anything you wish?" (68:35-38).

NOTE: Extracts, narration, paraphrases and replication from multiple sources. Please contact LMU if you require references.

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