Messages

[Sometimes, 'because God/Quran says so' is the only answer to a question.]

Salam HealerofWorlds,

Sometimes, 'because God/Quran says so' is the only answer to a question.

SalamunAlaykum,

I agree.

Thanks for responding, Nura. As mentioned, I have already read these articles as far as I remember.

On this basis it is not necessary to our belief in God that the Quran have a traceable isnad. Even if such a thing were to be established it should not matter to us.

I see what you mean. Thanks for responding. 

[[1]]

As-salamu alaykum "HealerofWorlds" *

I asked this person about the isnad of the Qur'an as they were claiming that denying hadith is denying the Qur'an. They told me about the "isnad of the recitation warsh 'An nafii'" and a diagramm of the chain.

For one to believe this argument, one would have to believe in the authority and authenticity of the Ahadith corpus in the first place. This is because it is potentially a 'hadith' or 'ahadith' (with its own isnad(s)) that inform us that Quran had an isnad or a particular recitation was attributed to a particular recitor. Thus the argument becomes 'circular'.

The Quran makes no claim of such a transmission. Rather, the Quran's own testimony appealed to the whole community to spread the message en masse as witnesses from the source which was God who transmitted the words from the mouth of His chosen prophet (22:78 et al).

Therefore, do we believe the Quran's testimony or an allegation based on other ahadith?

Furthermore, I have cited in the detailed article [1] below:

"Little significance, however, should be attached to the Qur'an being known according to transmitters belonging to a century and a half after the Prophet..." [2]

I know of no comprehensive Ahadith corpus that lists each and every isnad of every verse of the Quran. Therefore, to suggest that the Quran was transmitted in the same manner with 'isnad' would require the claimant to produce the evidence of an isnad for every verse which carries the 'matn' (content) for scrutiny.

Finally, as I have shared a number of times and as other respected members of the forum have already kindly shared in this thread as well: The veracity of the Quran is not founded on the claim that the faithful claim that the scripture was 'preserved'. After all, the scripture could simply lead back to a false prophet and thus, its preservation would be meaningless as would it's content. Blind acceptance is what many faithful do with the religions they were born into. Rather, one should accept the truth of a claim by the arguments it presents.

I also have an illustration which may assist to demonstrate that the two transmissions (The Quran and the Ahadith corpus) are not alike [3].

Maybe I should research more about these "different recitations of the Qur'an."

I trust that the reference already shared as [1] below kindly assists.

* Finally, may I kindly, humbly and respectfully request that you consider changing your Username please? For all intent and purposes, your Username could read 'God' or 'Allah' as it is a powerful description which in my humble view is only befitting the Almighty God and not one that should be used for oneself without context. For example, 'Allah is the HealerofWorlds' may be better. Therefore, when I have greeted you, I have used inverted commas as it is not an attribution I am assigning to you (of course). I trust that you will take my humble request with the sincerity with which it is imparted 

With respect and warm regards,
Your brother in faith,
Joseph


REFERENCES:

[1] THE SEVEN AHRUF, RECITATIONS (QIRAAT), HAFS AND WARSH
http://quransmessage.com/articles/seven%20readings%20FM3.htm
[2] BROCKETT. Adrian Alan, Studies in Two Transmissions of the Qur'an, University of St. Andrews, Department of Arabic Studies. PhD Thesis 1984, Part Two, The First Century and a Half, Page 93
[3] WAS THE QURAN REALLY TRANSMITTED IN THE SAME MANNER AS THE HADITH
http://quransmessage.com/charts%20and%20illustrations/en%20masse/enmasse%20FM2.htm

Salam,

Thanks for responding.

So basically as Nura said, it does boil down to "Because God says so". I have no problem with that.
I just wanted a different way to explain this to hadith followers but I'll see. I didn't do so bad in the first place.

Thanks for the articles. I believe I've already read them before, as well as the one Nura quoted.

As for my username, it is for Allah. It was never for me and I think maybe you should have assumed, that as a Muslim, I would already understand that. It makes no sense for a human to be a healer of worlds. "Healer" in my username refers to God. Thanks for the request though. Maybe I will change it but for now, I think I'll keep it. 

[does]

The Quran does not give religious authority to any other source other than itself when it comes to religious guidance of believers.

Yes, I agree.

However, what I meant was that there are Muslims who claim that denying hadith is denying the Qur'an because both were transmitted in the same way (I believe they weren't, simple). But then some bring forward the "Qur'an's isnad" because if we know how both were transmitted (through chains) then why would we take one and not the other? Is it as simple as "because the Qur'an says it is divine so we believe so"?  I don't have a problem in believing that Qur'an is divine. I believe it to be so.
The thing is that I don't want to be confused or stuck about this issue anymore where it comes to explaining why hadith are not divine and not a part of Islam.

I also know about the matn/content points about the hadith but that's not really my point here.

And Joseph Islam used the "Qur'an's isnad" argument in one of his articles too which I thought was a good argument until I found out that the Qur'an apparently has isnad too. Verbal, apparently.

Even though I don't think this is necessary but to avoid someone being rude or something, I'd like to say that no, I don't belong to a sect. I'm a Muslim. So I made this post here because I wasn't sure how to respond to this "Qur'an's isnad" argument when it was brought to me.
Maybe I should research more about these "different recitations of the Qur'an."

SalamunAlaykum,

The other day I was having a debate/argument with someone about the Qur'an and hadiths. I asked this person about the isnad of the Qur'an as they were claiming that denying hadith is denying the Qur'an. They told me about the "isnad of the recitation warsh 'An nafii'" and a diagramm of the chain.
So I googled it, according to the wikipedia page the man Imam Warsh seemed to have lived quite a long time ago. So apparently there are "verbal" isnads of the Qur'an (or recitations? I'm not well versed on this topic) so I'm not sure how to respond to this 'argument'.

Maybe the way I wrote this sounds a little confusing but some replies would be nice.

[cleansed]

SalamunAlaykum,

But there are women who have really bad pain during their menstruation. My sister being one. She once had such pain, she felt like fainting. I think for some it's mostly the first day and for others the first few days. I myself also have pain but it's not so bad as some women. I didn't used to pray during my menstruation but now I usually do. (I think I would probably end up missing a prayer or more though if the pain was really bad which I think has happened before, it hasn't been that long since I've started praying during menses). I actually came on here to make a post about menstruation as I'm confused about this topic again.

The following verse:

And they ask you about the menstruations? Say: "It is harmful, so retire yourselves sexually from the women during the menstruations, and do not approach them until they are cleansed. When they are cleansed, then you may approach them as God has commanded you." God loves the repenters and He loves the cleansed. - 2:222.

"He loves the cleansed." 
That made me think, does Allah not love those who are unclean i.e menstruating women? It makes me feel kind of hurt if women are not allowed to perform salah which to me means not going near Allah in a way...

And it makes me also wonder, does that mean men get more reward because they pray during this time (the men who even pray ofc) whilst women don't?

O you who believe! when you rise up to prayer, wash your faces and your hands as far as the elbows, and wipe your heads and your feet to the ankles; and if you are under an obligation to perform a total ablution, then wash (yourselves) and if you are sick or on a journey, or one of you come from the privy, or you have touched the women, and you cannot find water, betake yourselves to pure earth and wipe your faces and your hands therewith, Allah does not desire to put on you any difficulty, but He wishes to purify you and that He may complete His favor on you, so that you may be grateful. - 5:6.

So I wonder, if women are not clean during their menses they can how can they "purify" themselves with wudu before salah?

"In a Book kept hidden" - 56:78.
"Which none toucheth save the purified," - 56:79.
"A revelation from the Lord of the Worlds." - 56:80.

I believe some use this to prevent women from reading the Qur'an during their menses?

I know that when reading the Qur'an, we also need to use our brains but just because it does not say clearly "Do not pray when you're menstruating", does it actually mean we're allowed to pray? The verses I've quoted confuse me a little bit.

I'm also not sure about this topic. I pray during menstruation. I feel that if Allah wanted us women to stay away from prayer for a few days (the importance of prayer is mentioned several times in the Qur'an), it would have been written and mentioned.
Allahu Alam.

Qur'an – 25:16 "For them therein is whatever they wish, abiding eternally. It is ever upon your Lord a promise requested."

Qur'an – 50:35 "There will be for them therein all that they wish, – and more besides in Our Presence."

Qur'an – 39:34 "They will have whatever they desire with their Lord. That is the reward of the doers of good –"
(See also, 16:31, 21:102, 36:57, 43:71)

That should be enough. Jannah will be a place of true happiness. God knows what is in our hearts, what we want and what makes us happy. We have to trust Allah.  :-)

No one is denying that women have to dress modestly. Also point out from the Qur'an where it says that headscarf is compulsory?
But why do you think men can walk around shirtless with half pants?

Salamun Alaikum.

I'm not sure about the exact words this person used but I once had a discussion with a non-Muslim who seemed to feel that it didn't make sense that the soul would (or could?) fall asleep in the grave as it is the body that sleeps and our body is only a shell to house the soul. They seemed to believe that the soul cannot sleep. I'm not too sure what the Qur'an says about this.

Does the Qur'an mention that we'll be raised in our bodies, or will only our souls be raised? If the latter, then that would mean that the soul will be asleep in the grave?

I know this isn't an important question but it's still interesting.

Thanks for any answers.

It does not say in the Qur'an that men only need to cover from waist to knees. As far as I know, that's stated in a hadith.

The Quran is for all people. If a person lives by the sea, they should keep in mind that Jannah will be many, many times more beautiful. Besides, we don't know what Jannah is going to be like, we have been given very little information about it. Allah SWT said we'll have all that we desire. That's enough, wherever you live.

I have a question about this. Why do you think it's only compulsory for men to cover from "navel to the knees"? So a man can walk around shirtless? In front of women? That is not decency or modesty in my opinion.

Yes yes, that's what I mean! ^
There must have been a reason. I think I will want to ask this one to God one day. Hehe.

^ Interesting, will look more into that.