Old women in sura 2

[Deliverance]

Salam ladies,
While i was reading chapter the Cow i came to a part which made me sceptic about the translation,see:

"Surah Al-Baqara"

(282)"...if two men be not (at hand) then a man and two women, of such as ye approve as witnesses, so that if one of the two erreth (through forgetfulness) the one of them will remind."

This sounds discriminating and denigrate the women so i looked up every part in the quran at hand,wich mentions women in the Translation.The words in arabic where not all the same there are words to describe the gender itself,words for spouses,girls and mutual ladies.
The arabic word used above is ٱمۡرَأَتَانِ                                                                                                                               

And i came to know that it is used for women beyond her Menopause look:
Sure 19
"(4) Lo! I fear my kinsfolk after me, since my wife is barren. Oh, give me from Thy presence a successor (5) Who shall inherit of me and inherit (also) of the house of Jacob. And make him, my Lord, acceptable (unto Thee). (6) (It was said unto him): O Zachariah! Lo! We bring thee tidings of a son whose name is John; we have given the same name to none before (him). (7) He said: My Lord! How can I have a son when my wife is barren and I have reached infirm old age? "
" وَإِنِّى خِفۡتُ ٱلۡمَوَٲلِىَ مِن وَرَآءِى وَڪَانَتِ ٱمۡرَأَتِى عَاقِرً۬ا فَهَبۡ لِى مِن لَّدُنكَ وَلِيًّ۬ا (٥) يَرِثُنِى وَيَرِثُ مِنۡ ءَالِ يَعۡقُوبَ‌ۖ وَٱجۡعَلۡهُ رَبِّ رَضِيًّ۬ا (٦) يَـٰزَڪَرِيَّآ إِنَّا نُبَشِّرُكَ بِغُلَـٰمٍ ٱسۡمُهُ ۥ يَحۡيَىٰ لَمۡ نَجۡعَل لَّهُۥ مِن قَبۡلُ سَمِيًّ۬ا (٧) قَالَ رَبِّ أَنَّىٰ يَكُونُ لِى غُلَـٰمٌ۬ وَڪَانَتِ ٱمۡرَأَتِى عَاقِرً۬ا وَقَدۡ بَلَغۡتُ مِنَ ٱلۡڪِبَرِ عِتِيًّ۬ا (٨) قَالَ كَذَٲلِكَ قَالَ رَبُّكَ هُوَ عَلَىَّ هَيِّنٌ۬ وَقَدۡ "

So in my humble opinion the translation isn´t really correct

Wa salam wa regards

[Khalid Zia]

Salam ladies,
While i was reading chapter the Cow i came to a part which made me sceptic about the translation,see:

"Surah Al-Baqara"

(282)"...if two men be not (at hand) then a man and two women, of such as ye approve as witnesses, so that if one of the two erreth (through forgetfulness) the one of them will remind."

This sounds discriminating and denigrate the women so i looked up every part in the quran at hand,wich mentions women in the Translation.The words in arabic where not all the same there are words to describe the gender itself,words for spouses,girls and mutual ladies.
The arabic word used above is ٱمۡرَأَتَانِ                                                                                                                               

And i came to know that it is used for women beyond her Menopause look:
Sure 19
"(4) Lo! I fear my kinsfolk after me, since my wife is barren. Oh, give me from Thy presence a successor (5) Who shall inherit of me and inherit (also) of the house of Jacob. And make him, my Lord, acceptable (unto Thee). (6) (It was said unto him): O Zachariah! Lo! We bring thee tidings of a son whose name is John; we have given the same name to none before (him). (7) He said: My Lord! How can I have a son when my wife is barren and I have reached infirm old age? "
" وَإِنِّى خِفۡتُ ٱلۡمَوَٲلِىَ مِن وَرَآءِى وَڪَانَتِ ٱمۡرَأَتِى عَاقِرً۬ا فَهَبۡ لِى مِن لَّدُنكَ وَلِيًّ۬ا (٥) يَرِثُنِى وَيَرِثُ مِنۡ ءَالِ يَعۡقُوبَ‌ۖ وَٱجۡعَلۡهُ رَبِّ رَضِيًّ۬ا (٦) يَـٰزَڪَرِيَّآ إِنَّا نُبَشِّرُكَ بِغُلَـٰمٍ ٱسۡمُهُ ۥ يَحۡيَىٰ لَمۡ نَجۡعَل لَّهُۥ مِن قَبۡلُ سَمِيًّ۬ا (٧) قَالَ رَبِّ أَنَّىٰ يَكُونُ لِى غُلَـٰمٌ۬ وَڪَانَتِ ٱمۡرَأَتِى عَاقِرً۬ا وَقَدۡ بَلَغۡتُ مِنَ ٱلۡڪِبَرِ عِتِيًّ۬ا (٨) قَالَ كَذَٲلِكَ قَالَ رَبُّكَ هُوَ عَلَىَّ هَيِّنٌ۬ وَقَدۡ "

So in my humble opinion the translation isn´t really correct

Wa salam wa regards

Imrah is a common word in Arabic - it means a woman. And it does not mean:

women beyond her Menopause

- -

It not really clear how you came to this. Now, re-interpretations and new reflections are fine, but, one must not impose morality derived from Western Enlightenment, unto the Quran. Else, you are just kidding yourself with self deception and intellectual dishonesty. 

[Deliverance]

Marhaba Khalid to the Forum,

Just read chapter 3 :40 in this ayat you read that Zakaria(pbuh)is telling that his spouse is not young anymore so is he and that and because of her mutual age.
I only want to hint that the translation should be checked i haven´t found a Tafsir about this theme.Feel free to refute my statement  with sources that count.


wa salam

[Khalid Zia]

Marhaba Khalid to the Forum,

Just read chapter 3 :40 in this ayat you read that Zakaria(pbuh)is telling that his spouse is not young anymore so is he and that and because of her mutual age.
I only want to hint that the translation should be checked i haven´t found a Tafsir about this theme.Feel free to refute my statement  with sources that count.


wa salam

Dear Deliverance,

قال رب أنى يكون لي غلام وقد بلغني الكبر وامرأتي عاقر قال كذلك الله يفعل ما يشاء

He said, "My Lord, how will I have a boy when I have reached old age and my wife is barren?" The angel said, "Such is Allah ; He does what He wills."

In this verse the literal translation of Imrati is "My woman" - in other words "My wife". Also here he actually talking about his age and not that of his wife. However the Imra' does not imply being young or old.

I only want to hint that the translation should be checked

Why? There isn't anything much there. Your basis:

And i came to know that it is used for women beyond her Menopause

Is not right. The verse you have indicated does not talk about Zakriah's wife other than that she is barren.

[Deliverance]

Salam khalid,
I have to research my statement because i found in "surat Jusuf" that the wife of the king has desires for Jusuf
".And women in the city said: The ruler's wife is asking of her slave-boy an ill-deed. Indeed he has smitten her to the heart with love. We behold her in plain aberration. (30)"
My question now is do have women in an advanced age feelings to fall in love with a young man?I know about old man taking very Young women as a Partner but the otherway round is not so common.

regards

[Khalid Zia]

Salam khalid,
I have to research my statement because i found in "surat Jusuf" that the wife of the king has desires for Jusuf
".And women in the city said: The ruler's wife is asking of her slave-boy an ill-deed. Indeed he has smitten her to the heart with love. We behold her in plain aberration. (30)"
My question now is do have women in an advanced age feelings to fall in love with a young man?I know about old man taking very Young women as a Partner but the otherway round is not so common.

regards

Salam Deliverance,

The verse you have quoted:

"And women in the city said, "The wife of al-'Azeez is seeking to seduce her slave boy; he has impassioned her with love. Indeed, we see her [to be] in clear error."" [12:30]

Nowhere is there mention of an "Older" woman. Simply a woman. Exact same is the case for the previous verse you mentioned. It talks about Zackariah being old and not his wife.


As to the question of relations between older woman and younger man - yes they do occur - but I am not expert on the matter.

 

[Deliverance]

Salam khalid,
These are the male persons with their female partner where the terminous "Imraat" is used.



3:35 إFemale  and Imraan
12:30 Female the royal of egypt
28:9 Female and the ruler of egypt
66:10 Female and Lot/Noah
11:69-72Female and Abraham

It is recognizable that these Person follow a ministry in an advanced age,also the Prophet Muhamad (pbuh) female Partners are mentioned in the quran but with other terminous not with the word"Imraat".

I dont know at what age the prophet was when the ayats where revealed but we can assume that the persons above had to be older than the Prophet when he demised.

wa salam

[Khalid Zia]

Salam khalid,
These are the male persons with their female partner where the terminous "Imraat" is used.



3:35 إFemale  and Imraan
12:30 Female the royal of egypt
28:9 Female and the ruler of egypt
66:10 Female and Lot/Noah
11:69-72Female and Abraham

It is recognizable that these Person follow a ministry in an advanced age,also the Prophet Muhamad (pbuh) female Partners are mentioned in the quran but with other terminous not with the word"Imraat".

I dont know at what age the prophet was when the ayats where revealed but we can assume that the persons above had to be older than the Prophet when he demised.

wa salam

Salam,

Yet, none of this alludes to the age of women. The 'Imrat simply means a woman. It gives no other indication. Alleging age of woman based on the alleged age of Husband - that just seems far-fetched. And look at what you say:

It is recognizable that these Person follow a ministry in an advanced age

Yet your examples are not all about Prophets. And the only one we know was in old age is Zakariyah. The only thing we can determine is that the word Imrat - does not refer to a girl but to a woman [beyond the age menstruation and having reached adulthood].

Also to imply someone of old age - added adjectives are used:

فأقبلت امرأته في صرة فصكت وجهها وقالت عجوز عقيم

And his wife approached with a cry [of alarm] and struck her face and said, "[I am] a barren old woman!" [51:29]


Therefore - the only meaning possible for the word "Imrat" is woman.

[Deliverance]

فأقبلت امرأته في صرة فصكت وجهها وقالت عجوز عقيم

And his wife approached with a cry [of alarm] and struck her face and said, "[I am] a barren old woman!" [51:29]


Therefore - the only meaning possible for the word "Imrat" is woman.

Salam this Quote you´ve made belongs to Abraham not to Zakariyah ,so these Prophets are very old and their Partners supposed to be even old ,the bible is describing the wife of Abraham like the quran.
http://biblehub.com/genesis/18-11.htm

Lot i is the cousin of Abraham and should be also be at the same Age like Abraham(pbut).The Age of Noah is described in the Quran at it confirms that he is very old during his ministry .

Comming to the age of the King and Pharao of Egypt i have no knowledge about,but it could be a form of heir Dynastie that makes the succesor the ruler of Egypt.

Wa salam

[Deliverance]

further Research of the word "Imraat" led to refute my statement of the translation to "old women".In Sura 27:23 the Queen of Saba is called Imraat .
And the wife of Abraham was called Sarai and it was changed to Sarah what means "ruler" also the root of imraat is  a-m-r
 what also means ruler so the better Translation is chieftain instead of women.

Sorry and thank you Khalid 

[Deliverance]

when looked up this word again i remembered a term which the mystical sects of Islam uses to describe the state of a Soul the novice have,it´s called "nafs al-ammara" they say it this stage someone is not trustworthy because he tends to Forget,to lie intentionaly or not,one who insinuates to evil.
Sura 12:53
"I do not exculpate myself. Lo! the (human) soul enjoineth unto evil, save that whereon my Lord hath mercy. Lo! my Lord is Forgiving, Merciful. (53)"

Sura 18:71
"So they twain set out till, when they were in the ship, he made a hole therein. (Moses) said: Hast thou made a hole therein to drown the folk thereof? Thou verily hast done a dreadful thing. (71) "

Here it is "imraa" and can be translated as grievous or abominable.

Rajul is used i think for Man in a high position so it could mean:"...then one Man(known trustworthness) and two guys(People have doupts about them)...."

Doesn´t it make more sense in case of different memories by the man and the two guys it is not bad to use harsh words like men uses somtimes.

wa salam 

[Wakas]

peace,

You may find this useful: source

Misconception: Two female witnesses are equivalent to one male witness

Background: Some think that a male witness is equivalent to two female witnesses in all cases, due to misusing one verse and applying it to all situations, irrespective of context.

This is only true for financial/business transactions:

O you who believe, if you borrow debt for a specified period, then you shall record it. Let a scribe of justice record it for you. No scribe should refuse to record as God has taught him. Let him record and let the person who is borrowing dictate to him, and let him be conscientious of God, and let him not reduce from it anything. If the borrower is mentally incapable, weak or cannot dictate himself, then let his guardian dictate with justice. And bring two witnesses from amongst your men, if they are not two men, then a man and two women from whom you agree of the witnesses, so that if one of them errs/forgets, then one can remind the other*. The witnesses should not decline if they are called, and you should not fail to record it no matter how small or large including the time of repayment. That is more just with God and better for the testimony, and better that you do not have doubts; except if it is a trade to be done on the spot between you, then there is no blame on you if you do not record it. Have witnesses/evidence if you trade. No scribe shall be harmed nor any witness; for if you do so then it is vileness on your part. Be conscientious of God so that God teaches you; and God is aware of all things. [2:282]
*note that it says if one errs/forgets then one can remind the other, implying both females may not be needed to testify if one can remember without problems. Secondly, there may be no need for witnesses to testify at all if the written agreement is not disputed by either party.

The Quran implies that the man has a wider duty of care than the female, regarding maintenance of the family/household [2:228, 2:233, 4:34, 65:6], and since women are biologically endowed with certain qualities such as pregnancy and breastfeeding this naturally makes them more likely to raise children, so generally speaking men are likely to have more experience in financial transactions. Another reason for this one-man and two-woman witness arrangement could be the protection of women from being subjected to high pressure by the party breaching the contract, which is mentioned at the end of the above verse. The presence and support of other women might reduce the pressure and possibility of perjury.
This case is also unique in the sense that it requires witnesses to be chosen, which is different to being an accidental witness to a crime for example.
Elsewhere in Quran it states the underlying principle of transactions/trade and that is it must be mutually agreed upon [4:29], which would also mean the witnesses would have to be agreed upon, as implied in 2:282. Thus, it could be argued that this core principle could be applied in a situation when no men were available and only women witnesses were available, as long as the transacting parties agreed. This hypothetical is not explicitly discussed however.

For other situations, such as a sole accusation by the husband against his wife of infidelity a female's testimony is equal to and effectively cancels out a male's testimony [24:6-9].

Likewise, in other examples in which witnesses are required, no differentiation is made between males and females [4:15, 5:106, 65:2].

[Deliverance]

okay this is a better translation