What is the real meaning of sola/salat?

[Wakas]

w/salaam brother Joseph,

By "we" I meant truthseekers/readers of the forum, including Hamzeh, whom I was addressing. I sometimes use "us" also in replies on forums, e.g. "can you tell us what you mean by..." etc.

We haven't actually discussed salat timings that much, e.g. in the QM thread you linked to, you and I only made about 5 posts each when discussing it. Hardly exhaustive.

In any case, you said it yourself on salaatforum, quote:

In 'any' epistemic debate one has the right to demand a response keeping in view where the burden of proof lies (with the one who asserts a claim).

Quite simply, you made some claims in your salat timings article, and I wrote a rebuttal to them, and even highlighted those I consider clear and irrefutable errors. No-one so far has shown otherwise.

As I said, take your time in responding, we can wait some more.

[Joseph Islam]

By "we" I meant truthseekers/readers of the forum, including Hamzeh, whom I was addressing. I sometimes use "us" also in replies on forums, e.g. "can you tell us what you mean by..." etc.

Wa alaikum assalam Wakas,

Thanks for your response.

Therefore I understand that no one has explicitly requested a response from me on your article and you are speaking on behalf of others. From what has been said so far then, all I can respectfully ascertain is that you are the only one expecting a response from the article you have written.

Like I shared, it is important that I use my time wisely and effectively and in order for me to prioritise my work effectively I need to understand context and demand.

I humbly feel it would be better if you do not speak on behalf of others as for all I know, maybe readers are satisfied with my responses that I have made on this topic to you and others. Also it creates a false sense of importance or creates credibility to your attempted rebuttal where there may not be any. I feel it more accurate that you say that it is you that is awaiting a response as that would be a fairer reflection of the situation at hand and clearer for me.

Finally, as you know an 'epistemic debate' is held by at least two people and with their consent. I do not feel a debate is viable if it is one person that is attempting to solicit a response by themselves. You have written some sort of article in which you claim you have rebutted my claims. That is all. From my experience thus far, when I have given up my time to discuss your views, I have respectfully found them to be without warrant on this topic as is somewhat your approach to the Quran. I have already cited the links here and here.

Therefore, as I shared in a related post to you:

...God willing and time permitting, I will go through them if I can.

Kind regards,
Joseph

[Hamzeh]

Asalamu Alaykum brother Wakas

what I ment was is there any people you know who actually try honestly without changing the meanings of the Quran to mean that Salat is actually commitment only. Or that it is not a worship and has form. Because you mentioned some try to explain them and some dont bother. I was curious on the ones that do bother to explain that salat as being not actually form and the way the traditional way is taken.


I found brother Joseph to go in depth in his articles explaining salat. That salat is a worship that includes form. That there are many requirements such as wudu before. And the steps involved in prayers. And how to deal with prayer when in danger or scared. That even the volume of voice required.  That one must understand what they say and there is also a direction. And the form its self. The sujud and ruku. Also I think this thread below is a good explanation of how its been passed on and that God has expected man to learn from another or bow down with those that bow down. The thread goes in much better details.  And not to forget all the other threads that brother Joseph wrote on. To be honest I found it to be very convincing. 

http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=380.0

As much as I think salat is required.  I still try to keep a open mind to someone who can explain it other wise. 
 
There is a big difference trying to correct the true religion of islam that was traditionally lost through secondary sources with the Quran. And by changing the meanings of the Quran to satisfy the needs of people.






Salam

[Duster]

I found brother Joseph to go in depth in his articles explaining salat. That salat is a worship that includes form. That there are many requirements such as wudu before. And the steps involved in prayers. And how to deal with prayer when in danger or scared. That even the volume of voice required.  That one must understand what they say and there is also a direction. And the form its self. The sujud and ruku. Also I think this thread below is a good explanation of how its been passed on and that God has expected man to learn from another or bow down with those that bow down. The thread goes in much better details.  And not to forget all the other threads that brother Joseph wrote on. To be honest I found it to be very convincing. 

Shalom / peace ... I gotta agree with this>>>>. I am also fully satisfied with bro Joseph's response on this topic.

[Truth Seeker]

Salaam,

I also agree with Hamzeh regarding Joseph's articles about salaat. Along with the articles, he has extensively debated the topic on other forums as has been mentioned.

Those lengthy discussions could go on forever but to tell you the truth, I feel that the topic has been thoroughly exhausted so I don't know why Waqas is trying to bring Joseph back into the discussion by using a mysterious 'we'.

[adam]

Salam All,

I think i have to apologize for starting this thread.I have noticed from previous discussions the exchange of words from brother Wakas and brother Joseph and i did not mean for it to creep up again.

I feel a debate will not help in clearing up any misunderstanding.

A last request for those here that i feel have greater knowledge than me.

1- What English translation of the Quran is best?
2- Can we trust the meanings to the words given in Arabic? for example; the Persians translate khimar to mean specifically a head cover when it does not necessarily mean so. what about other words? Is there a possibility that those that have power in religion are able to put a meaning to a word and thus render a sentence differently?

As we all know, the dirt inserted into Islam started during the conquests of the Abbasid dynasty and maybe even before that. with all the fitnah's, and in-fighting happening during that time it is clear that what we have now as "guidance" is a product of all that. The Persians never liked the Arabs, and so when they held the caliphate, anything Arabic in language and tradition were all corrupted and changed to suit the Persian way of living.

A product from these conquest were forced conversion. not by the sword but by economic, social and political means. The Muslim rulers did not need to force a conversion to non Muslims because they could collect a certain tax from them. Why force them to convert? those who actually converted were those living at the lower levels of society. Converting to Islam because it benefited them socially and economically. but their real spiritual roots were maintained and injected into the Islam they adopted. Hence, that is why we have many similarities with Zoroastrianism.

3- How to break away from the bullshit? bullshit that has transformed into truth after a thousand or so years? can i still trust an Arabic Quran to hold the same meaning it had during the time of the first 4 caliphs? the spelling and words may be the same, but what about the meaning it renders throughout that 1400 year period?

If i am wrong to question all this do let me know and i will gladly try an understand why

Peace All

[good logic]

Greetings adam.

Indeed can you trust anyone or anything?

I think you can only trust in GOD.

Again what I say has to be subjected to checking as per [17:36], here it goes:

The way we observe our Sola, Salah,Salat... is not based on Hadith. Qoran teaches us that its rituals were in existence and were delivered and practiced by prophet Abraham way before Qoran and prophet Muhammad's time:


[Qoran 4:125] Who is better guided in his deen than one who submits totally to God, leads a righteous life, according to the creed of Abraham: monotheism? God has chosen Abraham as a beloved friend.

[Qoran 22:78] You shall strive for the cause of God as you should strive for His cause. He has chosen you and has placed no hardship on you in practicing your deen - the religion of your father Abraham. He is the one who named you "Muslimeen" originally. Thus, the messenger shall serve as a witness among you, and you shall serve as witnesses among the people. Therefore, you shall observe the Salat and give the Zakat, and hold fast to God; He is your Lord, the best Lord and the best Supporter.

[Qoran 2:127] As Abraham raised the foundations of the shrine, together with Ismail (they prayed): "Our Lord, accept this from us. You are the Hearer, the Omniscient.
 [Qoran 2:128] "Our Lord, make us submitters to You, and from our descendants let there be a community of submitters to You. Teach us the rites of our deen, and redeem us. You are the Redeemer, Most Merciful.

Muhammad then  delivered Qoran confirming the fact that he is a strict follower of the religion of Abraham that its rites have been already inherited. The word Millat, used in the following verse means "ways or methods of service/worship" in the Arabic dictionary. Muhammad followed the rites that were practised by Abraham:


[Qoran 16:123] Then we inspired you (Muhammad) to follow the Millat of Abraham,* the monotheist; he never was an idol worshiper.

As far as all of our rites, Qoran only dealt with whatever got altered since Abraham such as the tone of our prayer (17:110), the basic steps of ablution (5:6), the times of our five daily contact prayers, the command of giving the utmost importance to the Friday Congregational Prayer (62:9), allowing sexual relationship with our spouses during the nights of Ramadan (2:187), whatever is mentioned in regard of Hajj and Umrah, and whatever is mentioned in regard of our Zakat, with the highlight that it is due whenever we collect or receive our income (6:141). Anything in regard of our rituals that is not detailed in Qoran has been already preserved by God and passed down correctly and this is basically why it is not detailed in Qoran. GOD also clarifies by sending messengers.

Believing in Qoran alone mandates the belief in the words stated by God to teach us the above system of how we inherited our rites including of course our" Salat". This system is spelled out in 16:123, 4:125, 22:78, and 2:127-128. Ignoring this clear system issued by God, and hanging on our personal wishes to find all the details of our rituals in Qoran only reflects our disbelief in Qoran itself, the lack of trust in its divinity, and the lack of trust in God and His systems. . Indeed, Qoran is complete and fully detailed. Part of its complete details is the above system of inheriting our rites from Abraham. Either we believe in it or we choose to be with those who take the word of God partially and conditionally. Do they believe in part of the scripture and ignore other parts (2:85)? Those who do so, are the  dividers in the following verses:


[Qoran 13:36] Those who received the scripture rejoice in what was revealed to you; some others may reject parts of it. Say, "I am simply enjoined to serve/worship God, and never associate any idols with Him. I invite to Him, and to Him is my ultimate destiny."

[Qoran 13:37] We revealed these laws  in Arabic, and if you ever acquiesce to their wishes, after this knowledge has come to you, you will have no ally, nor a protector, against God.

[Qoran 15:90] We will deal with the dividers.
 [Qoran 15:91] They accept the Qoran only partially.
 [Qoran 15:92] By your Lord, we will question them all,
 [Qoran 15:93] about everything they have done.
 [Qoran 15:94] Therefore, carry out the orders given to you, and disregard the idol worshipers.


GOD tries us by sending human messengers to clarify. Would we ever agree? Can Qoran be understood by all? What does Qoran say about diverting some and guiding others?...

May the lord guide us to His true path.

GOD bless you.
Peace.

[Wakas]

salaam Joseph,

In my experience of forums, it is very rare for someone to post on a thread "I'm waiting for a response on this" or similar. Perhaps this is what you expect, I don't know. It is interesting some forum members have now implied you have discussed this thoroughly to the extent that there is no need for further discussion. That is quite a feat for anyone. Of course, I disagree with them.

Like I shared, it is important that I use my time wisely and effectively and in order for me to prioritise my work effectively I need to understand context and demand.

It is ironic to think the time you have spent non-replying (multiple times now) you could have easily replied to the first "clear and irrefutable error" I highlighted, which is a fairly simple one to clarify.

From my experience thus far, when I have given up my time to discuss your views, I have respectfully found them to be without warrant on this topic as is somewhat your approach to the Quran.

Interesting, considering you have corrected your articles sometimes based on my observations. I have also noted other times when I felt you should clarify/correct your articles but you have chosen not to do so. Of course, this is somewhat subjective on my part.

One of the main reasons of reviewing a fellow student of Quran's work (whether it be mine or yours etc) is so if there are errors, they can be clarified or corrected, so we can improve our understanding. Let me cite an easy to verify example:

In these articles (one and two) you clearly state a prostration is involved in salat based on 4:102. However, after discussion with myself, you said:

source

"You have respectfully, yet without warrant, inferred a 'physical prostration'. If we simply allow the primary meaning of the word SJD to remain operative (i.e. SJD = humility, pay respect, honour, salute and humble), then salat can end once the spiritual experience of prayer is completed irrespective of whether or not this means a physical prostration."

Yes that is correct. I explained what I meant by 'Then when they have prostrated' as simply referring to 'the condition when they have completed their reverence to God (i.e. their prayer). This may or may not include prostration.

I consider this a significant clarification of your view, and such clarification is important because without it, it can mislead others about your view and/or what The Quran says. A case in point being forum member saba who was under the impression you took it to mean a physical prostration only in 4:102. No-one can really blame her if they read those two aforementioned articles.

As I said, take your time in responding to the article, but please bear in mind your salat timing article will be read by others in the meantime. If there are errors in it, they also may be misled.

Kind regards,
Wakas

[Joseph Islam]

Wa alaikum assalam Wakas

As far as I know I have never corrected my articles based on your observations. However in the course of our discussions I may have clarified my position but that is expected if one seeks elaboration. There is a difference between correction and clarification.

You said:

“It is ironic to think the time you have spent non-replying (multiple times now) you could have easily replied to the first "clear and irrefutable error" I highlighted, which is a fairly simple one to clarify.”

There is no irony. I just feel apathy dealing with your tedious repetitive queries on the same laboured topic of ‘salaat’.

Your responses are  tedious and the more you continue with this line of discussion with direct and indirect badgering seeking a response, the less likely I am ever to read your attempted rebuttal. Like I said, I do not agree with your approach and methodology to the Quran and I have already spent much time with dealing with your queries. I have so far found nothing new in your approach.

With regards your attempted rebuttal I have made my intentions very clear so please do not speak to me about this topic again.

May I respectfully remind you of forum policy 2(d). Please desist and do not write to me again until I deem it apt to respond on your attempted rebuttal.

Regards,
Joseph

[Saba]

I consider this a significant clarification of your view, and such clarification is important because without it, it can mislead others about your view and/or what The Quran says. A case in point being forum member saba who was under the impression you took it to mean a physical prostration only in 4:102. No-one can really blame her if they read those two aforementioned articles.

Salaam Wakas. Here you again once again going over the same old same old again. Let me tell you what I THINK. Having read the exchange between you and br. Joseph, I think he completely made his position clear and defeated all your wrong arguments. That is my view. PERIOD!  I don't see any contradiction. From what I can see...4:102 still speaks about PHYSICAL PROSTRATION. Yes, 'sujood' can have the main meaning of humility etc but given the situation of 4:102 it implies physical prostration. That is what I understood from the response you are talking about .... that it first means 'humility' etc and one of the ways it is shown is by physical prostration as in 4:102. To be honest, I am also getting sick and tired of your constant bickering and nit picking over this issue. In future, please don't involve me in your discussions about this topic. Thanks! Saba

[QM Moderators Team]

Dear All,

Everyone has expressed their position on this and made their intentions clear. This thread is now closed before it turns into a personal exchange.

Thanks