How can unity be achieved ?

[ahmad]

As salam alaykum,

How can muslims be united in thought and in action. How can we not get divided and differ like previous people when there are various opinions in almost every details in our religion ? Should we for instance unite according to the basics (Belief in God,angels,book ect...) and leave the details unresolved as it is. (Or will we differ in the basics also.)

Saheeh International translation*

[11:118]
And if your Lord had willed, He could have made mankind one community; but they will not cease to differ.
[11:119]
Except whom your Lord has given mercy, and for that He created them. But the word of your Lord is to be fulfilled that, "I will surely fill Hell with jinn and men all together."


[3:105]
And do not be like the ones who became divided and differed after the clear proofs had come to them. And those will have a great punishment.

Can we be from the people whom God has given mercy and not differ ?


Just some questions that have been on my mind lately. Any responses are appreciated.

[Joseph Islam]

Dear Ahmad,

Wa alaikum assalam

Differences of opinion are one thing. Some would argue that they are inevitable. However, it is how you react to them in general discourse; how you let it affect your people and how you allow it to influence your shared goals and interests, which is quite another.

I'd like to present a humble parallel in response to your question with a view to present one trail of thought.

The Jewish community is an equally divided people even in religious matters, yet, they are one of the most successful, powerful and influential people on planet earth. How and what do they unite on? How do they protect their common shared interests and shared goals to ensure their long term survival (they are one of the oldest communities on earth), even though, they have been scattered throughout the world and are so relatively few in number, as compared to those in other Abrahamic religions?

After all, the Jewish people / communities are neither aliens nor do they possess superhuman faculties.

I do humbly feel this is something worth thinking about in relation to your question.

Kind regards,
Joseph

[QM Moderators Team]

Dear Good Logic,

Your last post has been removed.

It has been discovered that your last post has made use of indiscriminate material from the submitter's website.

This is in breach of the forum policy 2 (f) which states:

(f)     This forum must not be used as a platform for any form of indiscriminate advertising, whether it is with a view to promote another scholar's views or the views of a particular group of thinkers, especially when academic differences of opinion have been made clear.

Your other posts may also now be examined as will any potential future posts. It appears that you have also been making indiscriminate use of Appendices and material from the Masjid Tucson website (Rashad Khalifa's work).

Please do not contravene any forum policy. In particular, any indiscriminate use of material from the submitter’s (or 19ers) website, or the views of Rashad Khalifa, or the dissemination of indiscriminate views of this particular group will result in an instant ban. You have kindly been warned!

Thank you

[Sardar Miyan]

Dear Moderator. Assails You may be knowing I think but Good logic runs his own Forum where his invites & discusses matters relating to Code 19. He is real 19ner.

[ahmad]

Dear brother Joseph,
Thank you for your input.


Dear Moderators,

I think I should have posted this earlier. Anyway, with respect, I don't understand why Good logic's post was deleted. When I read it I found that it was logical and actually contained some truth. What if he is not advertising another's scholar opinion and its his opinion and he believes that its true. (Even if its similar to another scholar's opinion). And when its said "especially when academic differences of opinion have been made clear" does this mean that the Forum has a certain opinion ? The same as Quransmessage.com ?If so, wouldn't that restrict the Forum to one opinion only (even if there was first a chance to make academic differences clear) ? I mean there is no question that this forum has a certain direction, but I thought that was a natural thing not something that has to be enforced by moderators. After all this is a Quran study forum, so I think if should encompass different schools of thought. Please correct me if I'm wrong or missed something.

Any clarification on the matter is appreciated.
Thank you.

Dear brother Sardar,
With respect, labeling Good Logic this way, is not helping creating a sense of unity. Please think about this brother.

Thank you

[QM Moderators Team]

Dear Ahmad,

Without meaning to offend you, do you really think we take removal of posts lightly here on this forum? If you are not aware of the discussions or investigations we have done, then why do you question it? We politely question you, have you been given the responsibility to moderate or do we have to publicly explain our decisions to you when it does not concern you? No one is forced to write on this forum and they do this by choice by acknowledging to go by by this forum's rules and not some others.

Now to your comment:

When I read it I found that it was logical and actually contained some truth. What if he is not advertising another's scholar opinion and its his opinion and he believes that its true. (Even if its similar to another scholar's opinion).

In the post that you refer to, Good Logic wrote:

"Many sectarian and religious titles have been invented by humans over the years.
 It is ironic and unfortunate that such fake titles have been gradually taking part in human history and culture.
They have been endorsed by scholars and have become officially established in documentaries and text books for all generations."

Now find the exact paragraph here: http://submission.org/friday_one_religion_many_titles.html

Are these Good Logic's words or the indiscriminate verbatim use of material from the submitter's site without references?

Another example from the same post, Good Logic wrote:

"This reminder is a straightforward acknowledgement of the only message and the only "deen" that is authorized and approved by GOD!?
Qoran recognizes many of the tribes and communities that received the guidance through different messengers and scriptures.
 Those communities are given titles and/or descriptions in Qoran related to their prophets/ messengers, their geographical location or their genetic descent.

 The titles of these different communities were not supposed to establish different unauthorized "deens" or sects as propagated and fed to the media and to the early and later human generations. "

Now find the exact paragraph here: http://submission.org/friday_one_religion_many_titles.html

Are these Good Logic's words or the indiscriminate verbatim use of material from the submitter's site without references?

In another post here: http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1325.msg6185#msg6185

Good Logic wrote:

"Contrary to common belief, the "Original Sin" was not Adam's violation of God's law when he ate from the forbidden tree.
 The original sin was our failure to uphold God's absolute authority during the Great Feud.
If the human person convinces his or her jinn companion to denounce that original sin, and uphold God's absolute authority, both creatures are redeemed to God's eternal kingdom on the Day of Judgment.
 But if the jinn companion convinces the human being to uphold Satan's idolatrous views, then both creatures are exiled forever from God's kingdom. "

This is word to word from Rashad Khalifa's Appendix 7 below:

http://www.masjidtucson.org/quran/appendices/appendix7.html

Are these Good Logic's words or the indiscriminate use of Rashad Khalifa's words from his appendices that are taken without references and taken verbatim?

In another post, Good Logic wrote: http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1325.msg6193#msg6193

"Because our life in this world is a series of tests designed to expose our polytheistic ideas, idol worship is the only unforgivable offence (4:48, 4:116).
 The world is divinely designed to manifest our decision to uphold either God's absolute authority, or Satan's idolatrous views (67:1-2).  Only those who are totally certain about God's absolute authority are redeemed (26:89)."
 
He then said: "This is my understanding."

Please see the exact paragraph word for word taken from Rashad' Khalifa's Appendix 7 here:

http://submission.org/App7.html

Are these Good Logic's words or the indiscriminate use of Rashad Khalifa's words from his appendices that are taken without references and taken verbatim?

We find such examples not throughout this one post, but in many of his posts and thus he was warned. Can we kindly ask you not to question the reasons why we have made a certain decision especially when you do not know the reasons behind our decision. What you have done is rather than leaving the matter private between the moderators and Good Logic, where we have given him the reasons why, your questioning has caused this to become more public.

Any indiscriminate use of another's work especially verbatim and without references is not academic or just. We need to ensure that a particular viewpoint is not being peddled indiscriminately on this forum and members make use of their own thoughts, in their own words and if they do cite verbatim, then they use citations / references. 

This forum is not a place to just peddle a particular view regardless of the group. It is an opportunity for real meaningful discussions where all parties are open to learn from each other.

Thanks!

[good logic]

Greetings Moderators.

Please allow me to also publicly clarify my point:

1- I hold similar views to many that are studying/ pondering and trying to uncover the truth of the message and I differ on other views .

2- I have always backed up my views with verses from Qoran and clarified it is my opinion and that others need to find out for themselves, I feel sharing the truth is free for everyone to be passed on.

3- I have quoted parts that I agree with from "submitters" site like I have quoted parts from others.

4- To me it was "picking what is best " from other sources.If I did not believe that they are my views and understandings from Qoran as well, I would not quote them.

5- Qoran is from "GOD" for free, anyone is allowed to give their views on it, sometimes many can agree on the same understanding.

6- I have not claimed any work to be mine, if it was not, I was sharing views with good intention.

Please, moderators, take this into consideration and close the matter.

 I will take your warning for the future .
Thank you, Ahmad, Sirdar,

 Apologies, Ahmad, for letting your thread go off topic.

God bless you all.
Peace.

[QM Moderators Team]

Thank you Good Logic and we are happy to allow the post you have written so that you can publicly clarify your position and are happy that you are prepared to take our warnings  for the future. This is what we expect from thoughtful and peaceful individuals like you.

This matter is now closed and we hope that we can move on with good discussions that this forum is very fortunate to have.

Thank you all!

[ahmad]

Dear all,
I feel that I cannot continue participating in this Forum without also clarifying my position.
My intention was not to undermine moderators' efforts, nor was it to make something unnecessarily public. Rather it was only that I felt something was not right and needed clarification. Nothing more nothing less. I like the QM Forum and have learnt a lot from it. That's why I wanted to make sure that everything is in it is just. And I appreciate that the Moderators have clarified the matter but what I don't appreciate is the way the Moderators responded to me when I have showed no disrespect to them. After all I only asked a question. I see nothing wrong with that.

Thank you.

[Joseph Islam]

Dear Brother Ahmad and Good Logic,

As-salam alaykum

Please allow me to respectfully interject in this thread and say that you are both very welcome on this forum. I would encourage your continuing participation as I have often enjoyed reading and responding to your posts.

As I am sure you can appreciate, moderation is not always an easy task and to maintain this forum's on-going integrity and level of debate, there is a continuing need to curtail the infiltration of sectarian bias, whether it is 'traditional' or whether it is 'Quranic', including upholding forum policies.

What is not always apparent is the amount of work that happens ‘behind the scenes’ of a forum. Apart from SPAM, trolls, dubious accounts, there is also a host of other reasons why someone may be rejected even before they are allowed to join this forum. This includes vexatious individuals, known to cause trouble on other forums and much else. There are kind individuals who are keen to provide this 'visibility' and their efforts are appreciated. However, any information is only acted upon if it is deemed there is plausible evidence and warrant. Therefore, I do appreciate the efforts of moderators.

However, I also uphold the need to maintain civility in discussion and if clarification is given, then this is to be parted in the most positive manner. In that respect, I wholeheartedly agree with brother Ahmad, and I will endeavour to ensure that no one is left feeling spoken to in a manner that is not most befitting for a forum of this level. Given my immense time restraints, I cannot oversee all the comments being passed on this forum, but if a member feels that in an instance, high levels of discourse have not been upheld, they should raise this with the moderators in the first instance and if they are not happy with their response or action, then to escalate the matter to me personally via email with any supporting evidence that they can share. That is all I can personally offer.

I respectfully ask the members to continue upholding the forum’s integrity and policies, including the need for proper referencing in general.

I trust that we can continue our dialogue. Thank you to brother Ahmad, Good Logic and the moderators for all your efforts and understanding.

Your brother in faith,
Joseph

[good logic]

Peace brother Joseph and brother Ahmad.

Thank you brother Joseph for your understanding and welcome.

Thank you brother Ahmad for your honesty and integrity.

GOD bless you both.

Peace.

[ahmad]

Thank you all. And happy Eid.