How can I recognise a messenger?

[munir rana]

Dear Brother Joseph Islam

Salam

In your article END OF PROPHETHOOD - CONTINUATION OF MESSENGERS? you said that-

However, the continuation of guidance through various messengers in various capacities is still open.

Your argument is very logical and if I am agreed with this point then the next question comes, how can i recognise the capacities (such as someone) as a messenger. In the Quran we see that earlier messengers declared their identity themselves. But no one in near past claimed him as a messenger. For example, I am a Bangladeshi. My language is Bangla. But I don't know anyone in my language who claimed him as a messenger. Is it our duty to discover a messenger or he should declare himself?

Your answer is always greatly appreciated.

May Allah reward you here and hereafter.

Munir Rana

[Sardar Miyan]

Salam Bro Rana, I had also interaction with Bro Joseph but identifying any specific person as messenger is not possible. Therefore any learned person who can explain Quran may be identified as
a messenger. Tablighi Jamat people say that as no Nabi or prophet is going to come the responsibility of awakening the the Muslims is the redponsibilty of knowledgable Muslims. Therefore the learned people in Jamaat can be Messengers in my view. Thanks for sharing.

[munir rana]

Dear Brother Sardar

Salam

I thought the questions of this section is only for Brother Joseph as it is titled as Q&As with Joseph Islam.

Anyway, you mentioned:

Tablighi Jamat people say that as no Nabi or prophet is going to come the responsibility of awakening the the Muslims is the redponsibilty of knowledgable Muslims. Therefore the learned people in Jamaat can be Messengers in my view.

That is a fantastic idea and totally unsupportable, so far as I understand.

There are a few knowledgeable persons mentioned in the Quran, such as Lukman, but were not addressed as a messenger. So only `knowledgeability' can't be the identification mark. And there is no fixed parameter to mesure who is  `knowledgeable' and who is not.

Moreover, Tablighi Jamat is very much leaned on secondary sources. That's there main source of knowledge so far as I experienced. In my teenage I spent a few days with Tabligi Jamat and now a days some of my relatives are also practicing religion according their prescription. They may be good people and their intentions might be good also, but it's fact that they always tell stories from secondary and tertiarry sources which has no base and very often contradicts with the guidance of Quran.

So I'm sorry to say that i can not accept your view that, `the learned people in Jamaat can be Messengers' .

[Sardar Miyan]

Salam Bro Rana, I did not tell that Tablighi Jamaat people are messengers but like that. I know the Tablighi Jamaat people are more tilted towards Ahadith and Fazail Amal rather than Quran. But as you
said I am also wonder as to why we are not able to recognize? Some say that it is Allah's information
about coming of messengers in the past. Allahualsm.

[Imran Faruqui]

As per verse 3:81, the Messenger will be recognized by the clear proofs he will bring with him which will confirm the Qur'an. Like the Messengers before him, this Messenger is also obliged to proclaim his Messengership, regardless if he does not want to, for he has no choice in the matter.

Once the Messenger brings clear proofs and proclaims his Messengership, then also according to 3:81, those who witness the proofs, must believe in the Messenger and support the Messenger in his mission. After witnessing the proofs, anyone who fails to support the Messenger, in his/her fullest capacity, is deemed to have broken the covenant with God (3:82), and will suffer the consequences accordingly; if not in this life, then certainly the next. The covenant is actually a test for those who are contemporaries of the Messenger to determine if they fear people or if they fear God (3:83), regardless of how they acquired/witnessed the truth, or what mask(s) they may have worn at the time of witnessing.

[Joseph Islam]

Dear brother Munir Rana,

As-salamu alaykum

In response to your question(s), there are a few points that I humbly feel remain noteworthy:

• The sharing of portents have ceased (17:59).
• Not all messengers brought portents for their people (e.g. Prophets John, Aaron and Lot). Even Prophet Muhammad was not given such a sign (3;183; 6:124).
• Even those that have supported central messengers, have been referred to as messengers [1]. From a Quranic perspective, messengers have often worked in tandem together and the Quran is replete with such examples.[2]
• There is arguably no direct evidence in the Quran that a messenger 'must' declare himself as a messenger of God and or with portents. Indeed, there are messengers that have done so, but the argument that this is compulsory, is at best unwarranted. Verse 3:81-82 was cited as a pretext and a history lesson primarily to provide credence to those amidst the prophetic ministry against those that were bent on rejecting the religion of truth (3:83) [3]. These verses arguably do not primarily address the post-Quranic era, especially those who do hold the Quran as primary source of guidance and criterion.

The purpose of the messenger is to facilitate the recognition of the 'truth' if God wills. In today's post Quranic era, it is arguable that holding the Quran as the primary source of religion and guidance for believers is that truth. Anyone that guides to those fundamental truths with clear arguments from Scripture can be arguably deemed as messengers. There is nothing an alleged 'messenger' that attempts to separate himself from this notion as a sole entity, can add, other than to potentially satisfy their own ego.

Finally, the final criterion to judge with is the Quran. No real messenger of God will ever attempt to provide an argument which falls outside the explicit guiding scope of the Quran or one that cannot be verified. This is especially true of those individuals that rely on spurious information especially claimed knowledge that does not rely on God's instruction to rely on clear matters. The Quran instructs believers to rely on clear proof, not to rely on assumption (zan - 6:116) and to verify (17:36). It also asks believers not to enter arguments (tumari) but to rely on a matter that is clear or obvious (zahir - 18:22).

Any individual that provides claims against the fundamental guiding principles of the Quran such as the above, can only be concluded / deemed as a false messenger and arguably, there have been many of those throughout history and possibly many more will continue to come forth.

In section 16 of the article you cite [4], I have already humbly shared what new messengers could possibly bring forth to mankind. I would personally remain wary of those individuals that attempt to make use of unverifiable claims, especially outside the context of the Quran's guidance to claim 'supposed' messengership. 

Some would assert that there have always been deluded individuals that have existed throughout history who have attempted to wrestle control over people, by making use of emotional and psychological coercion to satisfy their own egos.  This is not to say that true messengers have not suffered from the same arguments levied against them. However, there remains a clear difference between an argument which is based on truth and clear evidence, and others that are not. [5] That is what has always, and will continue to discern a real messenger from a false one.

012.108
Say, "This is my way: I do invite to God, on evidence clear / sure knowledge (as the seeing with one's eyes / insight (basiratin)),- I and whoever follows me. Glory to God! and I am not of the polytheists!"

May God help me to stay upright, if it is His will.

I hope this helps, God willing
Joseph


REFERENCES:

[1] END OF PROPHETHOOD - CONTINUATION OF MESSENGERS?
http://quransmessage.com/articles/end%20of%20prophethood%20FM3.htm
See Section 11
[2] Ibid
[3] IS VERSE 3:81 A REFERENCE TO ANY PARTICULAR MESSENGER?
http://quransmessage.com/articles/3-81%20FM3.htm
[4] END OF PROPHETHOOD - CONTINUATION OF MESSENGERS?
http://quransmessage.com/articles/end%20of%20prophethood%20FM3.htm
[5] BURDEN OF PROOF - PROPHET ABRAHAM'S (pbuh) ARGUMENT
http://quransmessage.com/articles/burdenofproof%20FM3.htm

[ahmad]

As salam alaykum,
Its been a long time since I've joined a discussion .

Dear brother Joseph,

I wanted to share a maybe different perspective regarding the following point:

Anyone that guides to those fundamental truths with clear arguments from Scripture can be arguably deemed as messengers

According to:

[35:24] Saheeh International
Indeed, We have sent you with the truth as a bringer of good tidings and a warner. And there was no nation but that there had passed within it a warner.

And

[9:122] Saheeh International
And it is not for the believers to go forth [to battle] all at once. For there should separate from every division of them a group [remaining] to obtain understanding in the religion and warn their people when they return to them that they might be cautious.

The Believers who were entrusted with the task to deliver the message were described as "warners". This could explain how communities received their warnings in the post Quranic era (35:24). Without anyone declaring himself as messenger. As every messengers is a Warner but not every Warner is necessarily a messenger.

Furthermore, The main counter argument to this, is in section 11

The main argument there is that the word messenger has been used to denote the helpers of a central messenger. Therefore the term messenger can describe "Anyone that guides to fundamental truths with clear arguments from Scripture".

I think there are two problems with this interpretation.

First of all, even If we assume that its a correct interpretation we are still left with a crucial difference. Its that those messenger mentioned were helpers of central messengers sent by GOD. Since there are no central messengers now. I don't think the situation is the same. That's why I believe the term "Warner" better describes those who guide others in the post Quranic Era. As it described the knowledgeable believers who taught their communities (9:122)

2. The second issue. It that its not Explicitly mentioned that the messengers (being referred to) were those who helped the Central messenger. It may be a possible interpretation but one cannot rule out the possibility that the Quran was referring to other messengers who were sent to the same communities. (But their stories were not told.   (4:164) ).


Please let me know your thoughts .

Regards,
Ahmad.