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Offline Sardar Miyan

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Sajda
« on: August 24, 2015, 08:10:17 AM »
-18:50
وَإِذْ قُلْنَا لِلْمَلَائِكَةِ اسْجُدُوا لِآدَمَ فَسَجَدُوا إِلَّا إِبْلِيسَ كَانَ مِنَ الْجِنِّ فَفَسَقَ عَنْ أَمْرِ رَبِّهِ أَفَتَتَّخِذُونَهُ وَذُرِّيَّتَهُ أَوْلِيَاء مِن دُونِي وَهُمْ لَكُمْ عَدُوٌّ بِئْسَ لِلظَّالِمِينَ بَدَلًا
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Salam All, As per Quran only Allah is an authority deserved to make Sajda but why Allah had asked all
Malayaka including Iblees to prostrate Adam? Is it not deviation from the usual practice though Allah can do anything He likes. Are the Malayaka & Iblees not better that Insan by virtue of creation? Some
translations indicate as Allah asked Malayaka & Ibleed to humble before Adam. Thanks for sharing

May entire creation be filled with Peace & Joy & Love & Light

Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: Sajda
« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2015, 10:30:52 AM »
Dear brother Sardar,

Wa alaikum assalam

I have already responded to this question in another thread. Please kindly see below:

Why Did God ask the Angels to 'Prostrate' to Man When Prostration is for God?
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=526.0

Regards,
Joseph
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell

Offline IjazAhmad

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Re: Sajda
« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2015, 09:27:27 PM »
Brother Joseph

As-salaamu 'alaikum!

Stooping is a social gesture, part of Asian culture and mostly done by the Japanese. Is it allowed to that in Islam?

Regards,
Ijaz, A.

Offline Sardar Miyan

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Re: Sajda
« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2015, 07:02:30 AM »
Japanies social gesture as simply Bowing does not amount to Sajda hence permitted.
May entire creation be filled with Peace & Joy & Love & Light

Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: Sajda
« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2015, 02:12:46 PM »
Brother Joseph

As-salaamu 'alaikum!

Stooping is a social gesture, part of Asian culture and mostly done by the Japanese. Is it allowed to that in Islam?

Regards,
Ijaz, A.

Dear brother Ijaz,

Wa alaikum assalam

As I respectfully shared in the link and subsequent article above, 'sujud' performed in an act of worship to God with one’s head and face to the ground is very different from 'sujud' that is performed with the intention of paying immense respect even if it includes bowing. It is the intention behind the 'sujud' which remains key.

As I mentioned, even Prophet Joseph's family including his father (also a prophet) prostrated to Prophet Joseph (12:100). This was not in an act of worship, but arguably as marked respect. Thus in that context, I would not find any problems (from a Quranic perspective) with a culture that uses such gestures to show marked respect (and not worship to another human).

I hope this helps, God willing.

Joseph
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell

Offline Wakas

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Re: Sajda
« Reply #5 on: August 30, 2015, 09:53:50 PM »
peace brother Joseph, all,


As I mentioned, even Prophet Joseph's family including his father (also a prophet) prostrated to Prophet Joseph (12:100). This was not in an act of worship, but arguably as marked respect. Thus in that context, I would not find any problems (from a Quranic perspective) with a culture that uses such gestures to show marked respect (and not worship to another human).

Your above statement is contrary to what you said in the link you referred to:
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=526.0

Quote
For example, it would be inappropriate in light of the Quran's context to understand Prophet Joseph's (pbuh) family, including his father (also a prophet), to have prostrated physically to the ground to Prophet Joseph (12:100). Similarly, in Prophet Joseph's dream where he saw a vision of the stars / planets, sun and the moon prostrate to him (12:4), one would least be expected to understand this to be a physical prostration.

Perhaps you can clarify which one is your interpretation.


And with regard to your statements:

Quote
As I respectfully shared in the link and subsequent article above, 'sujud' performed in an act of worship to God with one’s head and face to the ground...

Quote
In the context of prayer and God, it means a physical prostration by means of bending oneself towards the ground in complete subservience.

I was under the impression the following was your more recent view:
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=477.msg5387#msg5387

Offline Wakas

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Re: Sajda
« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2015, 09:59:00 PM »
peace Ijaz,

Is it allowed to that in Islam?

It might be helpful to not think of "Islam" like that, i.e. a capitalised meaningless title. It is an ordinary Arabic word with a meaning, see:
http://www.misconceptions-about-islam.com/more.htm

Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: Sajda
« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2015, 10:46:18 PM »
Peace Wakas,

My quotes are not mutually exclusive.

This is what I quoted:

"As I respectfully shared in the link and subsequent article above, 'sujud' performed in an act of worship to God with one’s head and face to the ground is very different from 'sujud' that is performed with the intention of paying immense respect even if it includes bowing. It is the intention behind the 'sujud' which remains key."

I then mentioned:

"As I mentioned, even Prophet Joseph's family including his father (also a prophet) prostrated to Prophet Joseph (12:100). This was not in an act of worship, but arguably as marked respect. Thus in that context, I would not find any problems (from a Quranic perspective) with a culture that uses such gestures to show marked respect (and not worship to another human)."

At no point did I suggest that Prophet Joseph's family prostrated to the ground. Therefore, I cannot see why you have made a contention by citing the following:

"For example, it would be inappropriate in light of the Quran's context to understand Prophet Joseph's (pbuh) family, including his father (also a prophet), to have prostrated physically to the ground to Prophet Joseph (12:100)."

[Bold emphasis mine]

The whole gist of the post was about showing humility and respect and even 'stooping' (infer bowing / bending) as per IjazAhmad's post to which I responded and my position has remained consistent.

With regards your second contention, once again I am unsure what concerns you are raising.

In all humility, it does appear that whenever there is a topic of 'sujud' in the main, you have felt the need to respond, possibly due to your own laboured investment into this topic. The latter sentiment, I would understand. However, please be reminded that this topic is a matter well exhausted between us and please also be kindly reminded that I will not be entertaining any further (in my humble view unnecessary) revisits / seeming subtle attempts to draw me back into related discussions. Those respected readers interested, can read the discourses in full view. [1]

Also may I kindly and humbly request that you do not appear to give the impression that my views on this topic are unduly fluid without warrant. Going forward, I will be increasingly eager to curtail unnecessary, laborious discourses / contentions on this forum.

Regards,
Joseph


[1] WAKAS
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1272.msg5924#msg5924
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell

Offline Wakas

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Re: Sajda
« Reply #8 on: August 31, 2015, 08:00:34 PM »
Peace Joseph,

Thanks for replying. If I have understood you correctly I did not realise that when you said "...even Prophet Joseph's family including his father (also a prophet) prostrated to Prophet Joseph (12:100)" you were NOT using the standard dictionary definition of the word "prostrate", i.e. down on the ground.

Usually when one uses "prostrate" that is what they mean.

#####

If you think I have some other motive for raising this issue, feel free to show your statements to 5 people whom you trust to be objective and if they all return the same answer with regard to your view of "sujud" then I will humbly accept your view is clear to others and maybe its just me.
In any case, it's no matter. In future, if the topic arises, I will simply state my view without reference to yours.


Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: Sajda
« Reply #9 on: August 31, 2015, 08:58:05 PM »
If I have understood you correctly I did not realise that when you said "...even Prophet Joseph's family including his father (also a prophet) prostrated to Prophet Joseph (12:100)" you were NOT using the standard dictionary definition of the word "prostrate", i.e. down on the ground.

Usually when one uses "prostrate" that is what they mean.


Dear Wakas,

Peace

Thank you for your understanding.

Just to clarify as I have shared with your kind self too, I have never stated that the standard / Quranic definition of prostration is 'to the ground'. Rather I have made it absolutely clear that SJD (prostrate) means to become submissive, humble, to pay respect. At times this can include bending down (bowing / stooping) and even to fall to the ground (such as when in worship to God). This is how I use the word 'prostrate' as a reference to SJD and its primary meaning.

Please see below some examples of my statements:


"SJD primarily means to show humility, submissiveness, to be humbled, show reverence, salute, honour, pay regards, respects etc" [1]

"They simply do not show humility, submissiveness or obeisance in their demeanour. This is after all the primary meaning of SJD." [2]

"SJD means to become submissive, humble, to make obeisance, lowly, to pay respect, or to even bend down (bowing) and prostrate." [3]

"If we allow for the primary meaning of 'SJD', can you see how the 'SJD' in this context is simply a term to imply that they were showing adoration, worshipping, showing submissiveness to the sun and not necessarily by 'physical prostration'?" [4]


I trust that clarifies, God willing
Joseph


REFERENCES:

[1] Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=477.msg3435#msg3435
[2] Ibid
[3] Why Did God ask the Angels to 'Prostrate' to Man When Prostration is for God?
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=526.msg1738#msg1738
[4] Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=477.msg3435#msg3435
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell