Concept of an Islamic State

[Star]

Salam

From my understanding, the laws and punishments in the Quran (lashes for adultery, etc) should only be implemented in a place where they are accepted by the community and the community is Muslim-run. But the Quran also advises choosing leaders by mutual counsel, which seems like democracy. Is the Quran in favor, generally, of separation of church and state? If the punishments detailed in the Quran are carried out on non-muslims, wouldn't that constitute forcing your religion onto other people? How would an actual "Islamic state" be run? (Because seriously, there is no such thing as an Islamic State these days.)

I get the impression there would be religious tolerance, but laws and punishments would be carried out according to the Quran. Would these punishments apply to both muslims and nonmuslims alike? Just wondering how an actual muslim country would be run, because God knows REAL muslim countries haven't existed for centuries. They still have the death penalty for adultery in Iran.

Mia

[Hassan A]

Salaam mia666,

You asked several good questions which I, personally, won't be able to give my opinion on at the moment, because I have Finals which I must study for. But there is one question you asked which I believe I can give an answer to.

You asked:

"How would an actual "Islamic state" be run?"

Muhammad Asad, a man whom I admire greatly for his commentary of/on the Quran, lays out the structure and governing of an 'Islamic State' in the following link. Albite he sometimes makes use of the hadith to make his case, over-all I think you may like what he has to say with respect to the structure and function of an 'Islamic State'.:

https://m1scqw.bn1302.livefilestore.com/y3mCtWQXV4MO6NJfyp3W7Vut5eZ3tysRkjr2jiPuQLpGnn7pN8CPWV2vr3jQBU0UHQeggS9lHTCk7FpXNTaB57pybeZ-3XwW_AYsOxQ6l9GWiI4zyRX4M6LUX28UCxT8ay2_gPQQHjZDjk2QLXkgceRgA/Principles-State-Government-Islam.pdf?psid=1

If the above link doesn't work, or you want a PDF version of the above link, you can google the following tittle and it should give you a PDF option:

"The Principles of State and Government in Islam"

[Star]

Salam

The link didn't work for some reason, but the pdf did. I haven't got time now to go through it but I will later inshallah. Studying.

Um...I have finals this week too...you're a respected member of this forum so I thought you were much older...like 50 or something, not in school anymore. LOL.

There's a lot of stuff people say about taxing nonmuslims that live under Muslim rule, saying that they should pay Jizya and stuff. I understand that jizya is discussed in Quran 9:29, but I'm not sure exactly what it is. I think taxing nonmuslims would be a form of religious discrimination, so I wonder if it's actually supposed to be a tax on nonmuslims or if it's something else?

It would be interesting to do more research on this. We should get Joseph Islam's opinion.

Mia

[Hassan A]

Salaam mia666,

With respect to Jizya, Joseph Islam has touched on it in the following link:

http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=315.0


Further to that, the same commentator who I've mentioned in my pevious comment has the following to say about it, as well.:

"In the Islamic state, every able-bodied Muslim is obliged to take up arms in jihad (i.e., in a just war in God's cause) whenever the freedom of his faith or the political safety of his community is imperiled: in other words, every able-bodied Muslim is liable to compulsory military service. Since this is, primarily, a religious obligation, non-Muslim citizens, who do not subscribe to the ideology of Islam, cannot in fairness be expected to assume a similar burden. On the other hand, they must be accorded full protection of all their civic rights and of their religious freedom: and it is in order to compensate the Muslim community for this unequal distribution of civic burdens that a special tax is levied on non-Muslim citizens (ahl adh-dhimmah, lit., "covenanted" [or "protected"] people", i.e., non-Muslims whose safety is statutorily assured by the Muslim community). Thus, jizyah is no more and no less than an exemption tax in lieu of military service and in compensation for the "covenant of protection" (dhimmah) accorded to such citizens by the Islamic state. (The term itself is derived from the verb jazd, "he rendered [something] as a satisfaction", or "as a compensation [in lieu of something else]" - cf. Lane II, 422.) No fixed rate has been set either by the Qur'an or by the Prophet for this tax; but from all available Traditions it is evident that it is to be considerably lower than the tax called zakah ("the purifying dues") to which Muslims are liable and which - because it is a specifically Islamic religious duty - is naturally not to be levied on non-Muslims. Only such of the non-Muslim citizens who, if they were Muslims, would be expected to serve in the armed forces of the state are liable to the payment of jizyah, provided that they can easily afford it. Accordingly, all non-Muslim citizens whose personal status or condition would automatically free them from the obligation to render military service are statutorily - that is, on the basis of clear-cut ordinances promulgated by the Prophet - exempted from the payment of jizyah: (a) all women, (b) males who have not yet reached full maturity, (c) old men, (d) all sick or crippled men, (e) priests and monks. All non-Muslim citizens who volunteer for military service are obviously exempted from the payment of jizyah."


And by the way, yes I am still attending school; I am only a year away from getting my bachelors, God-willing.

[Hamzeh]

Salamu Alykum Hassan and Mia

Just so we can form and ponder on topics about what might consist of an Islamic State, i'll briefly write down some things that come to mind that the Quran commands the Muslims as a nation to regulate as Laws and explains how they should be carried out.

- Marriage                                                                     - Corruption/mischief                                      - Monitoring funds
- Inheritance                                                                 - Welfare                                                        - Enjoining in the good
- Divorce                                                                       - Taxes                                                           - Forbidding the evil
- Contracts (business, personal, loans)                            - Child care                                                     - Penalties
- Interest                                                                      - Theft, continuous theft                                   -Murder
- Prostitution                                                                 - Pardons, community services, probation          - Manslaughter
- Fornication / adultry                                                    - Monitoring actions, liberalization                      - Death
- Lying                                                                          - Mutual consultations                                      - Freedom
- Corruption/mischief                                                     - Monitoring funds

The Quran expects Believers, and/or a People of God, to Judge by what God has given them. Not limited to the list above, the Quran goes into detail about the regulations and procedure of lots of the topics I mentioned.

After assessing some topics in the Quran and related articles on this site I find when there is a judgement, punishment, rules, duties, prescription, or procedure of a general affair then these should be initiated by the nation/government on the citizens and does not differentiate between a persons belief.

Mia you said

If the punishments detailed in the Quran are carried out on non-muslims, wouldn't that constitute forcing your religion onto other people?

It depends. I sometimes think of taxes. Some people feel like paying taxes is not their duty. However western countries who are in a stable state and able to feed their poor and unemployed is arguably because of Taxes. And people must pay. Does that contribute to force or is that part of living and contributing to society although this is a rule of God. I find their are somethings that are crucial to countries health and well being.

Also a country needs to ensure the safety of its citizens. If people commit crimes there may be punishments. If people commit sexual activities in public and walking nude there may be consequences of a thinking country. However God already gave as a favour His Guidance. Now some things that God does not prescribe a punishment it may be just a duty upon Believers. Some western countries don't even let people walk around with open bottles of alcohol. It seems like anything that effects public they say no to. But at the same time they have the freedom of choice.

For example on taxes according to Quran it seems that people will have to abide by the rate of taxes to be paid to the government. These rates would possibly be based on mutual consultation between authority members and possibly the people as well. They may have different ways derived of how people have to pay taxes and the different rates applied to people of different categories( middle class, rich class, business, personal etc). But they should always insure they are following what the Quran is saying, they must enjoin that the people pay their taxes from the Profits they receive. And it should be done in one year. That the taxes collected they should be split up in accordance to how God describes. Taxes will have to be enjoined on believers and non-believers.

Inheritance would possibly apply in the same manner. As long as someone is a citizen of the land, then they would have to adhere to the laws of the land. Divorce, punishments, another matters would be carried out in the same ways.

I find that sometimes the Quran tells that if people repent and do righteous deed, or were not aware of their actions, it instructs the state to forgive or find a better way for them. I find that also these actions would have to be derived and made into a procedure somehow. For example in verse 24:5 I can't help but to ask, how do they repent and do righteous deeds. And then you may take their testimony. This may be community services, probation, prayer etc. It would possibly be applied to young people who commit little crimes and things like that.

I live in Canada and when I ponder about the laws they have here, I get shocked at how close they are to the Quran. I sometimes feel like the law makers some how read the scriptures and understood them, and applied them to the country. Or they may have looked at the laws from successful just countries of the past and applied the laws to their own. Not sure what happened.

And just to comment on zakat or taxes. There is a article brother Joseph wrote on it[1]. After reading the article I can see how a Islamic government can derive a system of taxes.

Since zakat is compulsory on believers for the next life as well, and its a crucial matter. I ask myself how would a believer enjoin in zakat/taxes if not living under a government who enjoins it, or has a right system. If I had to guess I would say paying your taxes no matter where you are is a righteous deed. And could be attributing to the actual zakat.

Some times I hear people living in western countries that they pay their zakat(2.5%) before the end of Ramadan from their savings to poor people or sending to their home countries. While I find nothing wrong and actually a good deed spending on poor and family and everything else. But to not pay the tax in the country your living in and saying you are paying the zakat somewhere else just doesn't fit in right with me.

A believer is expected to pay zakat. And we know zakat and saddaqa is different. This leads me to ask a couple questions while I ponder about the whole topic. How can one pay zakat if not living in a Islamic country despite the fact that their whole system is not even based on the Quranic zakat?

Would paying your taxes in other countries who actually expect their citizens to pay from their profits taxes be considered zakat in the light of the Quran?

Sorry a little tired and I may of got off topic by replying and asking questions at the same time.

Peace and Blessings to all Insha'Allah



[1] Zakat
http://quransmessage.com/articles/zakah%20FM3.htm

[Star]

Salam

Hassan: About the jizyah, I've heard the idea that only Christians and Jews have to pay it. Is it just them or every other nonmuslim in a Muslim country? In a proper Muslim country, people would probably need religious certification or something, to determine which religious penalties would be used on them in the event of committing a crime.

Hamzeh: You wrote out a pretty good list of every law-related thing that would go on in such a country. I think personal matters, such as divorce, child custody, or punishment for adultery, would be carried out based on the person's religious affiliation, or lack thereof. If their book has a different inheritance division or divorce process than the Quran, then they'd use that. Otherwise they'd follow the general Quranic law-based system.

Although, I think the Quran is the only scripture that details divorce processes and those things.

For this to work, you'd have to know who was muslim and who wasn't. Everyone would most likely have to be registered based on religious affiliation and other information.

However for impersonal matters such as murder and mass homicide, I think everyone would simply have to abide by the national law, that is, by the laws detailed in the Quran.

Of course, everything I said above about religion-based laws and all that, would only work in an actual Islamic country where such laws are accepted and recognized by the community. In a nonmuslim country, you just follow whatever the national law is. Making up your own laws instead would constitute spreading corruption.

And yes, I live in the United States, and the government is way better than in, say, Arabia. Democracy, "mutual consultation" and all that. It fits with the Quran quite well, although that might change if and when...er...a *certain Republican candidate* becomes president. We all know who I'm talking about.

God bless everyone (except Hitler/Pharoah/Trump/etc.)

[Star]

Oh, and also, about zakah: I don't think paying helpful taxes would be considered zakah, even if it benefits the community. Zakah is voluntary, not a state-imposed thing like taxes. Even in a muslim country, nonmuslims wouldn't be forced to pay zakah. Zakah is a personal matter that has little to do with national law.

That's just what I think. Generally, zakah falls under the same category of salah. Purely voluntary and has nothing to do with national law.

[Star]

Anyone know anything else about this?

[good logic]

Peace mia.

What does "Islamic state mean? Is it inclusive of all humans?

Qoran is part of the "universal message", given to all the humans since they walked the earth, Quote:

There is only one universal message authorized by God to the human race. That one message was preached by all of His prophets and messengers since Noah and is similarly expressed in all of His scriptures. That one message is:

I'm ONE, reverence Me alone ; recognize Me, adore Me, strive to bring My beauty, My Spirit, My elegant attributes I placed in you to this world, live by My ethics so you would gracefully reunite with Me. I granted the human race honor, dignity, equality, freedom and grace to fulfill that purpose, in truth and justice. No monopoly for My approval- only reverencing Me alone qualifies for My love and approval. No divisions, sects, boundaries or attributes of moderate or radical prefixing My message exist in My scriptures- read your scriptures.. My message spares the sacred gift of life, eternally and condemns killings and blood shed. My message is to celebrate the human family and the family of humanity. My message is exclusively for you to embrace My honorary-given rights to you; justice & freedom for peace, equal opportunities, prosperity, resources & blessings and dreaming while rejoicing in fulfilling your purpose.

Unless all of us unite in this "one message" and adapt its teachings , we will be divided like we are now. There will be quarrels and wars and corrupted states...etc.
First we must all realise there is no us and them ,we are all one human race.Is the penny going to drop?

[Qoran 21:92] Your congregation is but one congregation, and I alone am your Lord; you shall serve/worship Me alone.
 [Qoran 21:93] However, they divided themselves into disputing religions. All of them will come back to us (for judgment).
[Qoran 21:94] As for those who work righteousness, while believing, their work will not go to waste; we are recording it.

[Qoran 42:13] He decreed for you the same religion decreed for Noah, and what we inspired to you, and what we decreed for Abraham, Moses, and Jesus: "You shall uphold this one religion, and do not divide it." The idol worshipers will greatly resent what you invite them to do. God redeems to Himself whomever He wills; He guides to Himself only those who totally submit.

I have a dream! All of us should wake up? The basic is to unite under GOD Alone,then the "Islamic state" will work?
http://www.total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/website-pages/good-logic/

May the Lord unite all His devoted servants. May the humans return to their Lord in submission!

GOD bless you.
Peace.

[Star]

Yes, Islam encompasses true Christianity, Judaism and all other true monotheistic religions. So, Good Logic, you're saying that in a real Islamic State, Quranic law would apply to everyone no matter what their religious affiliation is.

I'm not sure about this, but since Christianity and other religions are so corrupt now, it wouldn't make sense to let Christians derive their punishments from the Bible and stuff like that. It actually might make more sense to have everyone universally following Quranic law, but without religious coercion in personal matters.

Just my take. Islamic countries are nonexistent, so we can't know for sure...