Author [EN] [PL] [ES] [PT] [IT] [DE] [FR] [NL] [TR] [SR] [AR] [RU] Topic: cut the hand and the feet

Offline chadiga

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 137
    • View Profile
cut the hand and the feet
« on: December 08, 2011, 07:01:10 PM »
Salamu aleikum
I need an analysis of verse 5.33, 20.71. Can someone help me? To my understanding, that term can be understood both literally and allegorically. I tend to be allegorical, because I understand alsothe "cutting of the hand for the thieves" in the light of Surah Yusuf . much thanks. Peace be with you

Offline Joseph Islam

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1843
    • View Profile
    • The Quran and its Message
Re: cut the hand and the feet
« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2011, 05:19:00 AM »
Salamun Alaikum Chadiga,

Those that find difficulty reconciling the directive of 'cutting' with their worldview and infer it as a barbaric punishment, usually attempt to make use of the verses from Surah Yusuf (12:31) to make their case or argue it from an allegorical perspective.

I find the references you quote from my humble analysis of the subject literal. However, from my perspective the context is often not appreciated. In my view, these verses are not dealing with an 'ordinary' thief or a poor wretched soul that takes a loaf of bread to feed his starving family.

In my article below, I argue:

"We have noted the context of the verse which deals with an 'exemplary punishment' (Arabic: Nakalan) meted out to the repetitive thief who remains intent on transgression (as indicated by other Quranic verses). We also note that previous verses refer to serious transgressions in the land such as 'fasaad fil ard' where such exemplary punishments (cutting of hands and feet) are explicitly mentioned"

CUTTING THE HANDS OF A THIEF - NO ORDINARY THIEF
http://quransmessage.com/articles/thief%20hands%20FM3.htm


Also, please find a related discussion in the Question and Answers section:

http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=106.msg273#msg273
 

Regards,
Joseph.

'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell

Offline Sardar Miyan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 970
    • View Profile
Re: cut the hand and the feet
« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2011, 10:45:02 PM »
What I understood from your explanation is that the thief should be prevented from doing theft or Fasaad by cutting his ability to do?Am I right?
May entire creation be filled with Peace & Joy & Love & Light

Offline Truth Seeker

  • Administrator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 401
    • View Profile
Re: cut the hand and the feet
« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2011, 06:51:40 AM »
Salaam Sardar Miyan,

I think that the cutting of the hands is a punishment for someone who is constantly causing mischief in the land, without remorse.

Without a hand, it would be more difficult for him to commit such crimes but I think that the main reason is so that he is punished and then mends his ways. Also others would see this and it would act as a deterrent.

Offline Saba

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 272
  • Keen to learn and understand the True Islam
    • View Profile
Re: cut the hand and the feet
« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2011, 03:07:28 PM »
Salam Truth seeker,

Thanks for your response. How would you then understand 5:39 in this context?

005.039
YUSUFALI: But if the thief repents after his crime, and amends his conduct, Allah turneth to him in forgiveness; for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.


Here it seems to be talking about repenting after the crime. But if the hands are cut off before he has a chance to repent, then is this not unfair or is there another explanation to the verse which I may not be seeing.

Thanks.
Saba

Offline Sardar Miyan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 970
    • View Profile
Re: cut the hand and the feet
« Reply #5 on: December 12, 2011, 02:05:58 AM »
Assalam sister Saba has quoted 5:39 about  thief's mending which I wrote that cuuting implies cutting of thief's ability to commit theft.Then how can Allah be forgiving ?
May entire creation be filled with Peace & Joy & Love & Light

Offline chadiga

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 137
    • View Profile
Re: cut the hand and the feet
« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2011, 04:57:50 AM »
brother Joseph he give us his interpretation, that the matter 'cutting the hands' for the thief is to look word for word, because he give the logic fact, that we see in sura jusuf the mention of 'sikina'(knive). that it is right for this situation and also the key for understand the other verses - in no other place Allah give us the mention from the object with we must cut be. nowhere we found anything. so it seems, that Allah want tell us that it's a allegory. my humble interpretation.
the matter with pharao, i thinked about it all the night and came to this end:

The reward of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive to attract corruption in the country should be, that they be killed or crucified, or that they will cut off hands and feet alternately, or that they be expelled from the country. This will be a disgrace for them in this world, and theirs in the Hereafter a heavy punishment is given. (5.33)
The phrase in 5:33 is repeated in another place: Pharaoh, one of the greatest tyrants of the earth, treated a few believers who followed the prophet Moses, in the same way:

20:71
"He (Pharaoh) said:" Believe ye in Him before I give you permission, he should probably be your master, who taught you magic Truly, I will take you about cut off the hands and feet alternately (leave), and true?. I want you (leave) on the trunks of palm trees crucify;. then you will learn to determine who of us is strict in punishment and sustainable "

This is repeated elsewhere:

Pharaoh said: "Believe ye in Him before I give you permission Certainly, this is a trick which ye have planned in the city to drive out its people therefrom, but soon shall ye know verily, I will.. .. alternating your hands and feet cut off then I will crucify you all "you said:" We return to our Lord.

Note: The same expression
 
the first time as the threat of punishment of a tyrant, "fasaad" in the country spread

the second time as a threat of a tyrant, as a last resort, the exercise of his power, against people who believe in God and not of him.
 
God wants to point out that in every tyrant who enslaves his people deserved this punishment, because he just threatens that his subjects.
This reference clearly shows us how special every word in the Quran has been legal and that we are asked to study it.
The preceding verse confirms this interpretation:

5 .32
Therefore, we have ordained for the Children of Israel that if someone kills another person without that party had committed a murder, or without a disaster would have happened in the country, so be it, as if he slew the whole mankind and if anyone a person sustains life, so be it, as if he saved the lives of all mankind. And Our messengers came unto them with clear signs, yet, even then many of them committed outrages in the country.

Next we see that the sentence is not imperative, it is not a command but a fact.
Those who threaten the infidels, "God and His Messenger," with punishment and prosecution are those who have deserved this punishment, and not God's messenger and the believers who invite people to peace.

Another interpretation of the Qur'an arises when one considers what has been said as allegorical. As in the can "Handabhackvers" says that is not to be understood literally, the expression "cut off hands and feet of each other" very well have been used in a figurative sense:
A personal interpretation of the verse:
First a question: what is: wage against Allah and His Messenger, war and corruption in the country seek to attract?

This is exactly the description of a pharaoh or a monarchical despot who bullied a people or suppressed. Such a person "enslaved" sold his people, and considers it not to the law of God, that is, justice, peace, charity, poor delivery, right to protection and freedom of expression. Thus, many of the so-called modern presidents are considered "new-fangled Pharaohs" and  making Fassad. Let's look at the Middle East, for example, was a good example - in most eyes - Mubarak, the Egyptian president. Passed in principle with him exactly what threatened to God here in this Sura as punishment for a despot: If we consider allegorical expressions in this verse, as in other places in the Qur'an, we see that "cut off hands and feet alternately" equivalent to "curtail its resources and mobility" as is. This is exactly what happened to him, he was (his throne) overthrown, imprisoned and robbed of his money, ie His bank accounts frozen. In German there is also this phrase: something has no hands and no feet, said, something that has no basis, or limit the power, or curtail the funds (as expressions in German) are almost exactly the same words, as God uses them here.
Also be noted that, as we have seen above, this expression is not in the imperative. It refers to a logical law of cause and effect: How did it goes around the forest, it echoes back ... Someone who is suppressed to be reckoned his hand trying to end this way. It is worth noting that this - according to the divine law-usually without any action on our part is done, God can transform the situation and put down the tyrant, by the establishment of its agents and helpers (people can be) earned to their doom.

The reference to the crucifixion also can be understood symbolically. Each devotee, now or at the time of Muhammad, was familiar with the crucifixion of Jesus story. The crucifixion as an allegory on the "pilloried provide" a humiliation, exposure and punishment, which is visible to all the people - compare again with Mubarak: he was pilloried by his machinations and embezzlement of funds of Egypt publicly were made. His shame was submitted to the general public. There is no chance for him, somewhere hold off for a position of power. This is exactly what God wants to express here: such a tyrant and enemy of mankind (or group) should be made publicly known, branded, punished if possible, so that he can never bully other people in some form. This will be done at home. If this is not possible, he should be banished from the land-and this has happened and happens maybe in this particular case as well. As it became known, Mubarak has the American nationality, and it is rumored that he will flee there. And God knows.
According to the law of retaliation, it is permissible and legitimate to do the same to someone that he has done one. So it is allowed to bully a tyrant as he has done - he has murdered, it is legitimate to kill him. However, this verse is a clear indication that God will punish him even without our help ...

Why do I interpret this verse? Because this interpretation with the wisdom of the Koran and the groundmeaning: the justice of the peace, the preservation of life. It is fighting for a believer only allowed to defend themselves or as retaliation for a murder-but even there God clearly says that forgiveness is the better way. God abhors violence and oppression, as we have seen is ending a life to kill all of humanity equally. This was true for the Jewish community as well as for all communities at all times, as we find nowhere in the Koran abolished this principle.

Even the animals we have killed just to satisfy our hunger. Any kill for pleasure or for "sacrifice" in order to get anything for it is forbidden and abhorred. Meat should be slaughtered to donate it to the poor and even to live on them, not to be wasted.my personally view. salamu aleikum wa rahmatulla

Offline Truth Seeker

  • Administrator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 401
    • View Profile
Re: cut the hand and the feet
« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2011, 12:07:06 PM »
Salam Truth seeker,

Thanks for your response. How would you then understand 5:39 in this context?

005.039
YUSUFALI: But if the thief repents after his crime, and amends his conduct, Allah turneth to him in forgiveness; for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

Here it seems to be talking about repenting after the crime. But if the hands are cut off before he has a chance to repent, then is this not unfair or is there another explanation to the verse which I may not be seeing.

Thanks.
Saba

Salaam Saba,

I see this linked to 5.33 where repentance is mentioned before the person is overpowered.
Verse 5:39 mentions forgiveness again this time for the thief who repents and reforms ( wa aslaha ).

I see this practically being applied, for example when someone who did cause mischief and stole, regretted it afterwards then mended his ways.
The crimes he committed came to light after he reformed, therefore under this verse he would not have to be punished as before he was discovered, out of his own volition he decided correct himself.

I would even go so far as to say that because God knows what each soul will do even before they were created, He would know about the soul that would commit evil but afterwards sincerely repent and change his life. God would therefore ensure that this person's crimes would either never be made known to the authorities or if so, make it be known to them a long time after the crimes were committed, so that the persons efforts of reformation would be known to all.

This way God would ensure that he is not punished by way of cutting off the hands.

On the other hand, with those who God knows would never stop their criminal activities, He would either expose them in this world (therefore ensuring that a punishment is administered) or He may choose to conceal their crimes and deal with them only in the Hereafter.


Offline Doc

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 15
    • View Profile
Re: cut the hand and the feet
« Reply #8 on: December 12, 2011, 03:35:35 PM »
we see in sura jusuf the mention of 'sikina'(knive). that it is right for this situation and also the key for understand the other verses - in no other place Allah give us the mention from the object with we must cut be. nowhere we found anything. so it seems, that Allah want tell us that it's a allegory. my humble interpretation.

So are you saying just because the other verses don't have a 'knife' involved, that means that the verses cannot be understood as 'cutting'?

"cut off hands and feet of each other" very well have been used in a figurative sense:


Do you have any clear evidence in any Arab classical works or evidence in their Arab language where cutting of hands and feet have been used figuratively?

Salam.

Offline chadiga

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 137
    • View Profile
Re: cut the hand and the feet
« Reply #9 on: December 12, 2011, 07:10:19 PM »
salamu aleikum

from your tone it seems, that you are not happy with my opinion...

[quoteSo are you saying just because the other verses don't have a 'knife' involved, that means that the verses cannot be understood as 'cutting'?
][/quote]..
When when you read what i write, then it's clear, that for me it's a key to understand the verse like that. I'm not the one she makes claims and think to have the ultimative truth.. we are here for searching and share many opinions, no need to blame one another.in  the topic [urlhttp://quransmessage.com/forum/
you will find a good intellectuel answer. In arabic qamus we found also the meaning for the word  is not only cutting physicially. brother Joseph he wrote a very good article about cutting the hand. salamu aleikum wa rahmatullah

Offline Doc

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 15
    • View Profile
Re: cut the hand and the feet
« Reply #10 on: December 12, 2011, 09:04:51 PM »
salamu aleikum

from your tone it seems, that you are not happy with my opinion...

[quoteSo are you saying just because the other verses don't have a 'knife' involved, that means that the verses cannot be understood as 'cutting'?]

When when you read what i write, then it's clear, that for me it's a key to understand the verse like that. I'm not the one she makes claims and think to have the ultimative truth.. we are here for searching and share many opinions, no need to blame one another.in  the topic [urlhttp://quransmessage.com/forum/
you will find a good intellectuel answer. In arabic qamus we found also the meaning for the word  is not only cutting physicially. brother Joseph he wrote a very good article about cutting the hand. salamu aleikum wa rahmatullah


Dear chadiga, Sorry, you'll have to excuse my style of writing. I didn't mean to sound rude. You actually come across as a very intelligent person. I just wanted to get to the bottom of your point so I could understand it better. Also wanted to know if you had proof of the cutting part in any other literature been used figuratively. Sorry once again. I'm more of a reader than a writer here so not very good when I make comments.  Salam.


Offline chadiga

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 137
    • View Profile
Re: cut the hand and the feet
« Reply #11 on: December 12, 2011, 10:17:34 PM »
dear brother doc
does not matter. I also had a ton on it ... something "schnippisch" I'm always a little sensitive, perhaps because I also tend to be a reader more than a writer  .. especially when it is in English. I often argue, by the way- you are quite right- ;) with the heart, and only afterwards with the existing evidence. I often leave the argument over the other, which dominate this much better Mashallah.! I wish you peace

Offline Truth Seeker

  • Administrator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 401
    • View Profile
Re: cut the hand and the feet
« Reply #12 on: December 14, 2011, 02:58:40 PM »
Salaam Chadiga,

I was reading your post and I think that what you are saying is that the verses are not literal.

Pharoah threatened his people as we see in 20.71 and also 7.124:

'Surely I shall have your hands and feet cut off upon alternate sides. Then I shall crucify you every one.'

Pharoah who has been described as a tyrant in the Quran, was also responsible for killing the males in the families and sparing the females:

28.4
'Surely Firon exalted himself in the land and made its people into parties, weakening one party from among them; he slaughtered their sons and let their women live; surely he was one of the mischiefmakers'.


I think that if Pharoah can impose such oppression on a nation and indiscriminately order the killing of innocent males, he surely means it literally when he threatens his opponents with cutting off their hands and feet and crucifying them.

The terms to me are therefore literal but the difference being that when God assigns this as a punishment, it is for those who themselves are tyrants and evil doers. In the Quran we note that they can be punished in this world and the next.

Thanks


Offline chadiga

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 137
    • View Profile
Re: cut the hand and the feet
« Reply #13 on: December 16, 2011, 06:34:57 PM »
Sallamu aleikum dear sister
I agree with you in everything you say, what i mean is, that  I think the days of Pharaoh the punishment was  common, I mean for example a crucifixion. But whether it is possible or appropriate at the present time, to crucify someone? So I think the implementation of the plastic verse in the time of Pharaoh was possible at the present time would be an interpreted sentence, as I have described it, is appropriate. It's also so that if someone is cruel or enslaves  people or suppressed it, this people will-at the right time and with God's help - defend their rights  and this despot will get then the deserved punishment -all-automatically fulfilled here mostly the eye and eye, tooth for tooth.