Grave Punishment

[ZKAB90]

Salām alikum,


I'm the guy who posted in your Facebook about the grave punishment. This is why I think there is a grave punishment:

And among those around you of the bedouins are hypocrites, and from the people of Madinah. They have become accustomed to hypocrisy. You, do not know them, We know them. We will punish them twice; then they will be returned to a great punishment. (9, 101)

Here is the problem: the word "twice" and the word "then".

This is I think the strongest evidence for the punishment in the grave. They will be returned so I think that they have tasted the punishment before return to it. The final destination is the Hell, but they have tasted this before.

WHERE? Not in the Dunya, so it must be in the Barzakh.

At least this is in line with the Hadiths. We know the punishment is the fire, and the Hadiths say the grave (or the barzakh) for the disbelievers are a pit from the Hell:

"The grave is but a garden from the gardens of Paradise, or a pit from the pits of the Fire.'" [Sunan Tirmidhi (4/639) No. 2460]

[Sardar Miyan]

Assalam Bro ZKAB90, please go through Bro Joseph Islam's article on Punishment in Grave (Punishment in Grave)

[ZKAB90]

Assalam Bro ZKAB90, please go through Bro Joseph Islam's article on Punishment in Grave (Punishment in Grave)

I read it and I not agree with. I want discuss this topic with Joseph Islam.

[Joseph Islam]

Dear ZKAB90,

As-salamu alaykum

I know you have been repeatedly requesting me to answer your question on various forums despite the article mentioned by brother Sardar and shared below [1] which I believe provides clear proof of my humble position that there is no direct evidence for the concept of 'punishment in the grave' in the Quran.

Therefore, please can you provide me 1 explicit statement (not inferences, not reliance on what 'twice' means and 'then' means; with respect, no reference to the oft misquoted 'Pharaoh' verse 40:46 which has been humbly addressed within the article); just 1 explicit statement that there is a concept of the punishment in the grave. The Arabic word 'Qabr' (grave) is well known / used in the Quran (9:84; 22:7; 35:22; 60:13; 82:4; 100:9). Where is this word or any other related clear reference used to establish this concept that you are supporting?

I humbly believe that if there were not for the plethora of secondary source material such as Ahadith supporting the concept of the punishment in the grave, we may not even be having this conversation. Isn't the need to keep invoking isolated 'implied' passages with no explicit support in the Quran by the masses, just a means to support popular belief based on dubious secondary sources?

With respect, does it not suffice that the Quran provides explicit proof that the disbelievers don't seem to have any concept of the time that had elapsed from their death to the Day of Reckoning and that there is no punishment mentioned in between? That they tarried as if it were a blinking of an eye? Are these not explicit statements in the Quran?

With respect again, how can explicit statements be ignored and seemingly ‘implied’ passages be used to establish core doctrines of belief? Would this not be a travesty against the Quran?

Dear ZKAB90, unless you can provide me 1 explicit statement in the Quran which clearly establishes this concept of punishment in the grave (Qabr), with respect, I cannot continue this conversation. Something similar to 'Disbelievers will be punished in the grave' would be a reasonable expectation / start.

In my humble opinion, fundamental theological beliefs must be supported by clear statements in the Quran. Please kindly consider the number of references to the punishment on the Day of Judgement. Where is the concept of punishment in the grave grounded in the Quran in a similar manner? Where are these explicit references?

I hope this will provide you at least some food for thought. However, if you are theologically invested to support popular belief without explicit proof from the Quran, then dear brother / sister, I simply cannot assist further and our discussions will remain futile.

With respect, the burden of proof is now with you to establish the concept with clear evidence from the Quran. I with respect, will only be willing to accept explicit statements of the establishment of the doctrine.

Finally, may I also kindly request that you do not open up different threads relating to the same topic [2], [3].

Regards,
Joseph


REFERENCES:

[1] PUNISHMENT OF THE GRAVE (AZAB-E-QABR)
http://quransmessage.com/articles/grave%20punishment%20FM3.htm
[2] With ONLY 1 VERSE I give you the proof that the PUNISHMENT IN THE GREAVE IS REAL
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1905.msg9367#msg9367
[3] Proofs that PUNISHMENT IN THE GRAVE is REAL
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1903.msg9335#msg9335

[ZKAB90]

Dear Joseph,

Aleikum salam

I read your response. There is no explicit statement in the Qur'an, as far I know.

However, an objective reader wouldn't dismiss this very important topic only because there are, in your opinion, merely "inferences".

Regards

[Joseph Islam]

Dear Joseph,

Aleikum salam

I read your response. There is no explicit statement in the Qur'an, as far I know.

However, an objective reader wouldn't dismiss this very important topic only because there are, in your opinion, merely "inferences".

Regards

Wa alaikum assalam ZKAB90

Thank you for your honesty.

Therefore with respect, I humbly assert that a believer cannot accept a doctrine of fundamental belief such as the one that you were respectfully espousing if there is not 1 explicit statement in the Quran to support it. That in my humble view is not only an objective approach to the Quran but one that is correct.

Regards,
Joseph

[ZKAB90]

Well, we will not agree upon this topic.

Although there is no specific question in the Qur'an regarding the punishment in the grave, I suggest you to read some rebuttal written by Bassam Zawadi about this very topic, because the "then" and, especially, the word "twice", are, in my humble opinion, really important.

http://www.ahlalhdeeth.com/vbe/showthread.php?t=17588

He tackles, in my opinion, all the arguments suggested by deniers, and some of your arguments in your article [about the punishment in the grave].

I end this discussion, because we have two differents approachs.

[Joseph Islam]

Well, we will not agree upon this topic.

Although there is no specific question in the Qur'an regarding the punishment in the grave, I suggest you to read some rebuttal written by Bassam Zawadi about this very topic, because the "then" and, especially, the word "twice", are, in my humble opinion, really important.

http://www.ahlalhdeeth.com/vbe/showthread.php?t=17588

He tackles, in my opinion, all the arguments suggested by deniers, and some of your arguments in your article [about the punishment in the grave].

I end this discussion, because we have two differents approachs.

Dear ZKAB90,

With respect, unless you or any other individual can produce clear evidence of support from the Quran for an alleged doctrine, then there is no need to read other material or point to other individuals. It was a simple request for support which you have agreed does not exist in the Quran.

With regards brother Bassam, I have discussed matters extensively on certain topics. Please kindly see [1] below. However unfortunately, no matter how much I wanted otherwise, I had to end our discourses because I felt that brother Bassam could not resist launching personal attacks and resort to Ad Hominem on different platform(s). With respect, I have no time for such negative dialogues and thus his participation was also curtailed from this forum.

The two approaches that you infer to can thus be summarised as one that seeks proof from the Quran (Quran-centric individuals) and the other, that relies on other secondary sources to establish core doctrines of belief (such as yours).

We shall respectfully agree to disagree and leave the matter to God to decide on the Day of Judgement as to who spoke the truth and with what evidence they relied upon as being the best.

Regards,
Joseph


REFERENCE:

[1] Bassam Zawadi
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1270.msg5922#msg5922