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Offline wanderer

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Contradiction??
« on: September 19, 2016, 01:23:55 PM »
How do we reconcile 9:113 with 45:14 without resorting to the blasphemy of abrogation??
Regards
wanderer
Rather, We dash the truth upon falsehood, and it destroys it, and thereupon it departs. And for you is destruction from that which you describe. (21:18)

Offline wanderer

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Re: Contradiction??
« Reply #1 on: September 19, 2016, 01:43:42 PM »
The only thing I can think of is that 45:14 refers to non-kufr non-Muslims and that 9:113 refers to kufr, especially those who attacked the believers and broke treaties (in the context of Surah 9). This finds support in how in the next verse it talks about following Abraham's example in not asking for forgiveness for Azar, a cruel, evil man who tried to stone and burn Abraham alive. What do you guys (especially Joseph) think about this?
Regards
wanderer
Rather, We dash the truth upon falsehood, and it destroys it, and thereupon it departs. And for you is destruction from that which you describe. (21:18)

Offline Nura

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Re: Contradiction??
« Reply #2 on: September 19, 2016, 03:43:41 PM »
Salam Wanderer

9:113
Not (it) is for the Prophet and those who believe that they ask forgiveness for the polytheists, even though they be near of kin, after [what] has become clear to them, that they (are the) companions (of) the Hellfire.

9:114
And not was (the) asking of forgiveness (by) Ibrahim for his father except because (of) a promise he had promised it (to) him. But when it became clear to him that he (was) an enemy to Allah, he disassociated from Indeed, Ibrahim (was) compassionate, forbearing.

These verses talk about a specific kind of people, people who not only disbelieve in God with a prophet present among them, but who torture the prophet and believers and break treaties. People who transgress boundaries and make it unduely hard for believers to practice their religion. There is a catch here, these people have proven to be among the people of hellfire, as we know prophets received information about hypocrites and other people who were harmful for their ministry from God. In both the cases the prophet ( Muhammad and Abraham) present was informed by God about the disbelief of these aforementioned people. It was revealed to these prophets by Allah that these people were people of hell. So, the prophets and believers were asked to react accordingly with them. But, currently we do not have a prophet among us, so we do not know the state of a person's faith or heart, nor are we informed who belongs to hell. We cannot apply these verses today. These were revealed to deal with a certain group of people who existed during the times of the prophet. In today's world, since we do not know for sure who is a true kafir, we can forgive them and pray for their guidance and forgiveness. Infact, we can do so because of verse 45:14.

45:14
Say to those who believe (to) forgive those who (do) not hope (for the) days (of) Allah; that He may recompense a people for what they used to earn.
45:15
Whoever does a righteous deed, then it is for his soul, and whoever does evil, then it (is) against it. Then to your Lord you will be returned.

Now, these verses are telling believers to forgive people who do not have hope for the fact that there will be a Day of Judgement, now these people maybe disbelievers or may also include believers whose faith have become jaded, after all the suffering and tragedies around them. God, is reassuring believers that there will be a day, when no soul will be wronged and everyone will get what they deserve. It is not for believers to judge. Only God can judge and we should simply be concerned with things that we can control, not things that are out of control like other people's actions and beliefs.

In other parts of the Quran, we are asked never to transgress against disbelievers. We cannot attack them first or torture them. We are only allowed do defend ourselves, but even then we are asked to do so mindfully. If, we transgress to protect ourselves and our right to practice our religion. God will punish us, the believers. We cannot harm any living thing out of aggression.

We are to always be kind and merciful to everyone, regardless of whether they are believers or not. And we should be quick to forgive everyone because we are also sinners, albeit of a different kind than true disbelievers ( no one knows who they are except God and prophets to whom this information was revealed during their respective ministries).
Not all those who wander are lost - J.R.R. Tolkien

Offline wanderer

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Re: Contradiction??
« Reply #3 on: September 19, 2016, 04:04:05 PM »
Thank you Sister Nura for your thoughtful response. While I am not certain of your conclusions, your deep knowledge of the Quran is always an inspiration to me.
Regards
wanderer
Rather, We dash the truth upon falsehood, and it destroys it, and thereupon it departs. And for you is destruction from that which you describe. (21:18)

Offline Nura

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Re: Contradiction??
« Reply #4 on: September 19, 2016, 05:00:36 PM »
Salam Wanderer

Which part about my conclusion are u finding unacceptable? I did essentially agree with your conclusions in post 2 where u said that maybe verses of surah 9 was about people who were confirmed kafirs ( confirmed by Allah to the prophets) and verses from surah 45 was about people whose state of faith we cannot garantuee i.e we cannot be confirmed that they are kafirs. So we can forgive those talked about in surah 45.

Maybe I can learn something from u as well brother Wanderer.  :)
Not all those who wander are lost - J.R.R. Tolkien

Offline wanderer

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Re: Contradiction??
« Reply #5 on: September 19, 2016, 10:38:51 PM »
Salam Nura
I didn't find anything about your post to be 'unacceptable'. I just needed some time to think over your post.
Regards
wanderer
Rather, We dash the truth upon falsehood, and it destroys it, and thereupon it departs. And for you is destruction from that which you describe. (21:18)

Offline Nura

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Re: Contradiction??
« Reply #6 on: September 19, 2016, 10:49:48 PM »
Salam Wanderer

Oh ok. I just thought maybe I couldn't present my point of view clearly. No worries  :)
And if you find that I was wrong then please do let me know. We are all here to learn together.
Not all those who wander are lost - J.R.R. Tolkien

Offline wanderer

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Re: Contradiction??
« Reply #7 on: September 19, 2016, 11:05:36 PM »
 :D :D
Rather, We dash the truth upon falsehood, and it destroys it, and thereupon it departs. And for you is destruction from that which you describe. (21:18)

Offline ilker

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Re: Contradiction??
« Reply #8 on: September 21, 2016, 09:55:36 PM »

It was revealed to these prophets by Allah that these people were people of hell. So, the prophets and believers were asked to react accordingly with them. But, currently we do not have a prophet among us, so we do not know the state of a person's faith or heart, nor are we informed who belongs to hell. We cannot apply these verses today. These were revealed to deal with a certain group of people who existed during the times of the prophet. In today's world, since we do not know for sure who is a true kafir, we can forgive them and pray for their guidance and forgiveness. Infact, we can do so because of verse 45:14.


assalamu alaikum all

Dear Nura, while i can say i agree with the rest of your answer generally, i don't think i can say the same for the part i quoted from your post. I honestly think it's quite bold to say some ayat cannot be applied by Muslims today. Do you mean some ayat are not relevant to our time ? Even though some ayat cannot be applied "in practice" today, they still have serious messages for Muslims from all times.  For example this one:

O you who have believed, do not enter the houses of the Prophet except when you are permitted for a meal, without awaiting its readiness. But when you are invited, then enter; and when you have eaten, disperse without seeking to remain for conversation. Indeed, that [behavior] was troubling the Prophet, and he is shy of [dismissing] you. But Allah is not shy of the truth. And when you ask [his wives] for something, ask them from behind a partition. That is purer for your hearts and their hearts. And it is not [conceivable or lawful] for you to harm the Messenger of Allah or to marry his wives after him, ever. Indeed, that would be in the sight of Allah an enormity. (33:53)

We don't have the Prophet (pbuh) among us today but should we just overlook this ayah ? Or does it still cover a message to pay attention to ? I think it does. We learn that no one should take advantage of someone who is so kind and merciful that they are really shy of dismissing us.


Anyway, let's get back to the subject. We do not the person's heart for sure or where his final destination will be, yes. But what if a person openly announces that he rejects the message or prophets or the existence of Allah ? What if they are clearly and openly in shirk ? What if they admit what's in their heart ? There are tons of ayat that organize the relationship between believers and non-believers/deniers. If we can't have enough idea about their status then how are we going to adapt ourselves to those ayat of Allah ?

For example, how should we think about this ayah:

"O you who have believed, when the believing women come to you as emigrants, examine them. Allah is most knowing as to their faith. And if you know them to be believers, then do not return them to the disbelievers; they are not lawful [wives] for them, nor are they lawful [husbands] for them. But give the disbelievers what they have spent. And there is no blame upon you if you marry them when you have given them their due compensation. And hold not to marriage bonds with disbelieving women, but ask for what you have spent and let them ask for what they have spent. That is the judgement of Allah ; He judges between you. And Allah is Knowing and Wise." (60:10)

ALLAH (swt) says He knows their faith best. But He also says that we can have an idea, sometimes enough proof to act upon. He says: "examine them", "when the believing women came to you", "if you know them to be believers"...

Ofc I could be wrong with my thoughts. ALLAH (swt) knows best. May He guide us.

Offline Nura

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Re: Contradiction??
« Reply #9 on: September 21, 2016, 11:26:55 PM »
Salam Ilker

Yes I do believe that some verses were and are situation and circumstance and time specific. As society changed those verses are no longer applicable e.g verses related to slavery. In order for those laws to apply u have to bring slavery back (disclaimer: I do not want to bring slavery back). But I do not think that saying that some verses do not apply today is 'bold', it is the truth. The immediate audience and envrionment was 7th century Arabs and Arabia and its surrounding cities. If u examine the verses that talk about heaven, only fruits that the Arabs knew are mentioned. But do u believe heaven will only have dates, pomegranates and olives and only quail as a non-vegetarian option? Ofcourse not! But these are mentioned by name because 7th century Arabs were familiar with them.

It is the truth that the Quran only mentions things and circumstances that the immediate audience could relate to, but that doesn't mean the Quran is not replete with timeless gems of wisdom.
It is us, the ardent students of the Quran, who have to determine which verses we can apply to the particular society and environment that we are a part of. For example: the society I am a part of takes pre-marital sexual relationship as the norm, but as a muslim I know that it is a sin and it is my choice whether to engage in it or not. The wisdom behind not engaging in zina remains timeless.

The verse u quoted about asking behind the veil and leaving early, talks about something very situational and relevant today, so we are welcome to implement the extracted wisdom from the aforementioned ayats. But there are numerous ayats that are rendered not applicable simply because we do not live in those times. Brother Joseph discusses this in his article where he says how kosher is not really allowed for us now, because they( people of the book) are not following their rules in the bible that the 7th century Arabs were reciting and not mentioning God's name before slaughtering grazing animals. Since the situation has changed we cannot really follow the ayat where their food has been made lawful for us. I will post a link to that article below.

Again about those women, they were women who were married to men who were at war with the prophet. It is very context specific. Those men were killing and torturing believers,  it makes sense not to send the women back to them. The women who converted would not be allowed to practice Islam so they automatically have to exile to a place where they can practice Islam. The place is with the believers. The believers are given a choice. If they want they can marry those women and a divorce is not necessary in this context because God out of His infinite wisdom made divorce unnecessary in this context. The new muslim women mostly escaped from their unbeliever husbands, sending them back was almost a death sentence and women at that time did not have careers so they couldn't survive all by themselves, they needed a believer as a provider. It is very simple. Plus, the prophet was there among them. Prophets did receive guidance from God outside revelation about other people and their characters and whether to trust them or not.  This situation is context specific why I am saying? Because there are many examples of pious people who stayed married to unbelievers e.g prophet Nuh and Asiya, the wife of Pharaoh. 

Anyway if you live in an environment where practicing Islam is problematic, u r asked to immigrate or move away from the hostile environment. Now, this does not mean that only a country can be hostile, a family/ marriage can also be hostile towards Islam and the verdict to immigrate or move on from that hostile place/ person/ family/ applies. These women were just moving away from their hostile husbands and families to an environment where they could easily practice Islam. It is that simple I believe.

http://quransmessage.com/articles/kosher%20FM3.htm

Not all those who wander are lost - J.R.R. Tolkien

Offline Nura

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Re: Contradiction??
« Reply #10 on: September 21, 2016, 11:53:17 PM »
Salam Ilker

Yes about the permission to make assumptions about others' faith, this is applicable when one says that he/she is a believer. In this context we are trusting the women and providing them with shelter and protection which is a kind and noble thing to do.

But there are also verses where we are asked not to pray for forgiveness of unbelievers/kafirs, there the context is different. Those people are verified and God certified disbelievers/kafirs. The prophets were informed of their disbelief. This is no small matter. Calling someone ' kafir ' is not a small matter. The true state of one's heart cannot be known now and to actually discriminate and not pray for forgiveness of an unbeliever loved one's soul is questionable. The exact moment when a person becomes a kafir is only known to God. But, when it comes to laws where we are supposed to be harsh with unbelievers, we have to be sure that the person is a kafir. Otherwise we will be transgressing. Not all unbelievers are kafirs. We are asked to not ask for forgiveness for people who we know for sure are kafirs. This does not apply for people who are unbelievers because of lack of knowledge or access to knowledge about God and faith etc.

http://quransmessage.com/articles/understanding%20kufr%20FM3.htm
Not all those who wander are lost - J.R.R. Tolkien

Offline ilker

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Re: Contradiction??
« Reply #11 on: September 22, 2016, 07:18:17 AM »
Salam Ilker

Yes about the permission to make assumptions about others' faith, this is applicable when one says that he/she is a believer. In this context we are trusting the women and providing them with shelter and protection which is a kind and noble thing to do.

But there are also verses where we are asked not to pray for forgiveness of unbelievers/kafirs, there the context is different. Those people are verified and God certified disbelievers/kafirs. The prophets were informed of their disbelief. This is no small matter. Calling someone ' kafir ' is not a small matter. The true state of one's heart cannot be known now and to actually discriminate and not pray for forgiveness of an unbeliever loved one's soul is questionable. The exact moment when a person becomes a kafir is only known to God. But, when it comes to laws where we are supposed to be harsh with unbelievers, we have to be sure that the person is a kafir. Otherwise we will be transgressing. Not all unbelievers are kafirs. We are asked to not ask for forgiveness for people who we know for sure are kafirs. This does not apply for people who are unbelievers because of lack of knowledge or access to knowledge about God and faith etc.

http://quransmessage.com/articles/understanding%20kufr%20FM3.htm

Salam all

Dear Nura, you say:

"The exact moment when a person becomes a kafir is only known to God. But, when it comes to laws where we are supposed to be harsh with unbelievers, we have to be sure that the person is a kafir. Otherwise we will be transgressing. Not all unbelievers are kafirs. We are asked to not ask for forgiveness for people who we know for sure are kafirs. This does not apply for people who are unbelievers because of lack of knowledge or access to knowledge about God and faith etc."

I agree. I was trying to say that sometimes we have to know for sure that the person is kafir or not. We simply can't guess away. But we can have enough information under certain conditions. I quoted 60:10 about the women, because the ayah is about knowing/examining someone's heart and faith. ALLAH (swt) also describes who the disbelievers are in general:

"Indeed, We sent down the Torah, in which was guidance and light. The prophets who submitted [to Allah ] judged by it for the Jews, as did the rabbis and scholars by that with which they were entrusted of the Scripture of Allah , and they were witnesses thereto. So do not fear the people but fear Me, and do not exchange My verses for a small price. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed - then it is those who are the disbelievers." (5:44)

Alhamdulillah. Thanks for your time.

Offline Nura

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Re: Contradiction??
« Reply #12 on: September 22, 2016, 01:17:26 PM »
Salam ilker

Yes, but showing kindness when u don't know for sure about a person's faith is following what Allah has revealed in the Quran. Who is a believer and who is not is something that I have purposefully left to God to judge . I am arguably not a messenger nor a prophet and neither did I from my reading of the Quran ever come across an ayat where God tells us that every muslim ( also muslim people who will be living without a prophet) will have to judge and be sure about who is a kafir. If someone says they are a believer, we accept it eventhough we cannot be sure that they are saying the truth. Allah had said that some suspicions lead to sin. And I believe making assumptions about the state of another's soul based on suspicion can lead to big sins. I extremely disagree that anyone today can know for sure that someone is a kafir. Whatever verses u quoted were about a person/ group of people the prophet knew personally. There were some people of the book who have deliberately sold the verses of the Quran knowing the truth. There are people of the book who are helping spread the message of Trinity and other distorted messages about the Bible unknowingly. And there are people of the book who are on the straight path. Yes, if someone is KNOWINGLY twisting the words of the Bible or Quran that person is a disbeliever. But, the problem is how will u ever determine that they are doing such a thing KNOWINGLY with 100% assurity? I know a lot of people who belive and propagate the hadiths as an indispensable part of Islam, r u saying everyone who propagates hadith are doing so knowing full well that hadiths do not have religious authority? I do not think so! I will always give people the benefit of doubt, this is my personal decision which I took after a lot of contemplation on the verses of the Quran and God's infinite mercy. As a personal decision to not transgress against unbelievers, I have and will always refrain from making assumptions about anyones's faith and state of their soul.

I would personally rather be judged by God for showing mercy and kindness to unbelievers who I am not 100% sure are kafirs or not than answer to God for making an assumption about unbelievers' souls and labelling them kafirs unknowingly. Calling people kafir without 100 % assurity about their souls is not something I want to answer to Allah for.
Not all those who wander are lost - J.R.R. Tolkien

Offline Nura

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Re: Contradiction??
« Reply #13 on: September 22, 2016, 01:45:26 PM »
Yes 100% assurity during labelling someone as a kafir is important! When u r labelling someone as a kafir u r essentially saying that that person is one of the people of hellfire. This is a big deal. U r making negative assumptions about someone. When u r believing someone to be a believer, in that case u r making a positive assumption about someone. Making positive assumptions about a person will not generally lead to commiting transgressions against that person. But, when we make negative assumptions about someone, we most of the time transgress and harm the person. Making negative assumptions (without substantial evidence to support such assumptions) about people have lead to a lot of harassments, muslims living abroad and also minority people can testify, how a neighbor's unfounded negative assumption can lead to arrest and harrassment and much more. So, yes I will say that I will refrain from making negative assumptions about unbelievers and call them kafir in the absence of 100% assurity.
Not all those who wander are lost - J.R.R. Tolkien

Offline ilker

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Re: Contradiction??
« Reply #14 on: September 23, 2016, 04:11:01 AM »
Salam Nura,

You explained your thoughts very well and in detail. Alhamdulillah. Thank you for the clarification. May ALLAH (swt) protect us all from crossing the line and misjudge people. May He also protect us from being arrogant. May HE guide us if we are wrong.

Take care.