Genesis 1:27 - Interpretation?

[wanderer]

I apologize if I seemed abrasive in my previous posts. IT'S just that, as a person who attempts to emulate the noble character of the noble propets in my regular life, a maligning of these characters, whether they be from modern day polemics of corrupted ancient sources, angers me. Please do not take offense.
Regards
wanderer

[Hamzeh]

Salam brothet Wanderer

Please realize that my comments were more towards brother Zack as I have been following his comments on other posts. I would like to also know clearly his views as maybe I might be missing something.

What I had gathered from his previous comments on different topics that the Quran is a continuation of God's previous scriptures and do not necessarily have to be viewed through the Quran when topics differ between them. We are just not understanding the verses correctly or not understanding the mind set of a different people. Although that might be true I have also read a while ago that the truth contained in the Bible can be extracted using simple logic.

Like I mentioned I agree with that its a continuation of the previous scripture but it's also a guard and a correction on invented writings in the name of God.

Therefor the Bible if stands in contrast with the Quran then one should know that its fabricated.

As I agree with you with what your saying. There also needs to be given a chance to see how others view this topic expecially those learned brother and sisters who are familiar with other scriptures.

Peace

[Zack]

Hello Friends,

Thanks for your great responses. The Qur'an context is very interconnected with the Bible, and so this is a very important topic.

I will go through a few of the key questions raised below, however firstly just to say the way I approach the Qur'an, this will helps with the variations in the Previous Books to the Qur'an. That is, the purpose of the Qur'an is for Arabs to memorize stories known to its 7th Century audience, so to bring its audience to repentance, primarily from "A compromised Monotheism," where the audience had departed from the Greatest command of all according to Isa, "The Lord your God is one." The purpose of the Qur'an is NOT to correct the stories in the Book of the Ahli Kitab! With this understanding as the context, everything changes. Differences in the story don't matter.

Why did the audience have stories that  took a different to the previous Kitab? Because the audience knew the oral traditions, they didn't have a Book in their language.

Responding to some specific questions / comments.....

If the Quran cannot be used to determine the truth contained in the Bible then one starts to assume or question would it be possible the Bible that was in the hands of the People of the Book in the time of prophet Muhammad could be different than what we have today?

There is absolutely no doubt that the Bible in the hands of the People of the Book is the same as it is today. In fact the Bible that the Prophet Muhammad was exposed to and referred still is world-renowned. You can see images of it here. I am sure brother Joseph can confirm this, and in fact I believe in some of his writings he already has mentioned this.

https://www.google.co.id/search?q=Peshitta&espv=2&biw=1440&bih=782&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj5m4ntsIHQAhVEu48KHVpcADwQ_AUIBygC

When reading bible (or Hadith) the Quran MUST remain the ultimate criterion (furqan).

Placing the Kitab before the Qur'an on the same level as the Hadith creates a mess and is almost blasphemous, as the Qur'an says "If you are in doubt, ask the People of the Book." Therefore this theory elevates the Hadith over the Qur'an. This creates big problems!

But the Quran clearly says the Bible was corrupted.

Can you please explain this statement? This is a tradition even later than most of the Hadith.

This is also a question that should be considered if one was to approach the Bible without using the Quran as a guard (muhayymin).

I would love to hear from Br. Joseph a word study on this.... Surah 3:1 and other such verses. If the Qur'an is a guard, why would it guard something corrupt? Surely it would guard something of value? This whole usage of the word "Guard" is back to front... "guarding" actually affirms the value of what is guarded.

Thanks for the input. A lot of these issues comes from not the text, but our attitude towards the text, which has been affected by religious division over centuries.

Wasalam

Zack

Asalamu Alykum brother Wanderer

It seems like when people had concerns about narratives in the Bible he had defended the interpretation and did not conclusively say that there is differences in stories or that there seems to be fabrications. He had pointed out that the Bible speaks of the weakness and sins of the prophets and the expressions and language seem to not be understood by the people who read the Quran. Does he have a valid point? Maybe to a limit, but some narratives seem a little disturbing so obviously they need to be explained.

Whats more important to me is that if there is differences in clear stories between the Quran and the Bible, then one can for sure admit that there is fabricated verses in the Bible. If this is accomplished then one can also approach the Bible with a caution and a consciousness of what seems to be fabricated.

If the Quran cannot be used to determine the truth contained in the Bible then one starts to assume or question would it be possible the Bible that was in the hands of the People of the Book in the time of prophet Muhammad could be different than what we have today? This is also a question that should be considered if one was to approach the Bible without using the Quran as a guard (muhayymin).

On the other hand again the Quran does seem to say that there has been falsely attributed sayings in the name of God however God has passed over much of what has been attributed.
Salam

[wanderer]

Yes, the Quran says Bible is corrupted, this is apparent.
Examples:
Solomon never fell to polytheism
Samiri, not Aaron started calf-worship
Lot's wife wasn't turned to salt, she was a disbeliever
Adam AND eve, sinned and fell from grace
No original sin
AND MUCH MORE
I simply do not understand how one can ignore all this
You also seemed to have radically misinterpreted the concept of a guard/criterion. The Quran is a guard in that it tells us which of the Bible is true and what isnt. These are my views, which are also shared by Traditional Islam (one of the few areas we agree on). I can see you follow a highly unique brand of theology which I disagree with. Nevertheless, I am not interested in a debate at this moment. Peace be upon you.
Regards
wanderer

[Zack]

Hello Wanderer.

Yes, no need to debate, my response to your points are on my last post above this one.

Wasalam
Zack

[Hamzeh]

Asalamu Alykum brother Zack.

I for one is not concluding anything as if yet regarding the Bible.

I do believe that the Quran came upon a people that were not guided before therefor it came to them as a mercy and favor from God. But at the same stroke I do believe it came to correct the understandings of the previous people of the book whether it was orally or what was written with them.

I also agree that comparing hadith and the Bible are not the same.

But you have to realize that its God who has revealed the revelations to Moses Jesus and Muhammad. So there should not be differances in stories. Or at least no contradictions.

I can see that if the prophets were to write the books in their own wisdom it would be still inspired to them by God. There may be differances in accuracy but not complete opposite perspectives.

Insha'Allah Ill ask you some questions regarding the Bible so I can get a betelter idea what your saying.

Salam

[Zack]

HI Hamzeh,

I think a good starting point is Br. Josephs article in regards to this topic..

http://quransmessage.com/articles/between%20hands%20or%20before%20it%20FM3.htm

I also mention again regarding how to approach variations...

- The purpose of the Qur'an is for Arabs to memorize stories known to its 7th Century audience, so to bring its audience to repentance, primarily from "A compromised Monotheism," where the audience had departed from the Greatest command of all according to Isa, "The Lord your God is one." The purpose of the Qur'an is NOT to correct the stories in the Book of the Ahli Kitab!

Wasalam

Zack

[Hamzeh]

Salamu alykum brother Zack

I dont really understand what you mean by what you mentioned

The purpose of the Qur'an is for Arabs to memorize stories known to its 7th Century audience, so to bring its audience to repentance, primarily from "A compromised Monotheism," where the audience had departed from the Greatest command of all according to Isa, "The Lord your God is one." The purpose of the Qur'an is NOT to correct the stories in the Book of the Ahli Kitab!

The audience of the Quran primarily were prophet Muhammad's people. The Quraish. These people were polytheists, who possibly ran off the monotheism track long before prophet Jesus, even possibly from the time the first humans have split up when they were one community. It wasn't until prophet Muhammad times that they have received guidance from God. It seems from a Quranic perspective that lots of nations God has favoured before them by sending them prophets and messengers while they still remained pagans unguided. Prophet Jesus did not come to them, neither did Moses or any other messengers.

Also in the area of prophet Muhammad and at the time of the revelations of the Quran there does seem to be Arabic speaking Jews and Christians. This was the perfect time to correct the beliefs of the People of the Book, whether it was contained in writing or that was being spread orally.

These are just a few verses

28:46-47 "And you were not on this side of the mountain when We called, but a mercy from your Lord that you may warn a people to whom no warner came before you, that they may be mindful. And were it not that there should befall them a disaster for what their hands have sent before, then they should say: Our Lord! why did you not send to us a messenger so that we should have followed Thy communications and been of the believers!"
 
32:3 "Or do they say: He has forged it? Nay! it is the truth from your Lord that you may warn a people to whom no warner has come before you, that they may follow the right direction"
 
34:44 "And We have not given them any books which they read, nor did We send to them before you a warner"
36.2-6 "I swear by the Quran full of wisdom, Most surely you are one of the messengers, On a right way. A revelation of the Mighty, the Merciful. That you may warn a people whose fathers were not warned, so they are heedless" [1]

Also it was expected that those who heard the Quran from among the People of the Book not to disbelieve in the testimony of the Quran. The ones who did reject the Quran were termed disbelievers. They were actually warned not to be the first of the audience to disbelieve in the Quran. There also seems to be guidance contained in the Quran for the People of the Book. The Quran does refer them back to their books, but with a caution. That they go back and correct there beliefs in areas the Quran differs. Also there is no doubt that the Quran corrects the beliefs that was orally transmitted and possibly never written down but was part of their main stream tradition. Example the belief that Jesus or Ezra is a son.

2:41 And believe in what I reveal, confirming the revelation which is with you, and be not the first to reject Faith therein, nor sell My Signs for a small price; and fear Me, and Me alone.


Going back to what you said earlier I think I might know what your trying to portray to me 

Why did the audience have stories that  took a different to the previous Kitab? Because the audience knew the oral traditions, they didn't have a Book in their language.

So from what i'm gathering is that your saying the "Arabs" were the audience (meaning all of them who were Jews, Christians, Pagans) all knew the previous scriptures through here say, or orally transmitted to them but they did not have the Bible in the Arabic language. So this lead them to have differences in stories? Hence the reason the Quran was revealed because its now in Arabic?

Even if this was the case, the stories differ not from the traditions of the audience but from the texts them selves. Bible and Quran. God revealed them both. They cannot go in contrast against each other.

Anyways brother, thank you for your thoughts. It was a pleasure and keep in mind its not a dispute Insha'Allah. It was to only understand other believers perspectives better and that Insha'Allah we get closer to the truth. As you can tell its not the easiest topic to discuss. Hope to learn more on your perspective God Willing.

May God guide us all to a better path and increase us in knowledge Insha'Allah


Peace

[1] ARE THE ARABS AND PROPHET MUHAMMAD (pbuh) REALLY DESCENDANTS OF PROPHET ABRAHAM? (pbuh)
http://quransmessage.com/articles/are%20the%20arabs%20descendants%20of%20abraham%20FM3.htm

[Hamzeh]

Salam

I mentioned

There also seems to be guidance contained in the Quran for the People of the Book. The Quran does refer them back to their books, but with a caution. That they go back and correct there beliefs in areas the Quran differs.

Instead of saying "but with a caution." It seems to me actually that the Quran does refer the People of the Book to their Scriptures which suggests guidance, judgment and law still remains intact and those parts are not corrupted. However as the Quran is a mercy to all mankind it also serves to correct certain topics that seem to be not of law or judgment.

Allah(swt) knows best

Salam

[Zack]

The audience of the Quran primarily were prophet Muhammad's people. The Quraish. These people were polytheists, who possibly ran off the monotheism track long before prophet Jesus, even possibly from the time the first humans have split up when they were one community. It wasn't until prophet Muhammad times that they have received guidance from God.

I say that the audience had a "Compromised Monotheism".... There are so many areas where later Muslim writings influence our thinking. The idea that the audience of the Qur'an were polytheists is an assumption. Muslim tradition / Hadith is virtually our only source of information about the jahiliyya. The following may be helpful.....

The polemic of the Qur’an against the mushrikun reflects disputes among monotheists rather than pagans.Much of the Qur’an material points to a dispute about intermediate beings, angels and others, as sources of power and influence with God. But a developed angelology and exchanges of accusations of angel worship are characteristic of many monotheist groups in the early Christian period. It is against this background that the traditional charge of shirk is usually understood. The essence of their kufr was that they recognized (through prayers, sacrifices, vows and other things) intermediaries between themselves and God: When you have understood this you have understood the meaning of ‘there is no god but God’, and you have understood that whoever calls upon a prophet or an angel, grants him authority or asks him for help, such a one has gone away from Islam.

Wasalam