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Offline Seraphina

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Re: How many Prophets?
« Reply #15 on: November 29, 2014, 04:27:40 AM »
Shalom Duster,
Yeah, I am aware of brother Joseph's busy schedule, and that's why I have a deep respect and consideration for him - may God Almighty reward him for finding time to answer us whenever possible for him :)
As regarding the subject, I recall an article I once read in a religious magazine, (but I don't remember the name of the author, sorry, Arabic names and their spellings have always been tough for me), but anyways, the scholar there wrote that The first scripture - )a book with a law to be established - different from Abraham's scrolls) was Torah, and it was given to Moses. Moses had the authority to proclaim the Torah and its laws to people. The prophets that came from Moses until David didn't bring any other scripture, they simply re-brought the Torah to people who went astray from it. So, the Torah was re-given to them to be re-proclaimed to the people. That's what Allah meant when he revealed that We sent Noah, Isaac, Jacob... and to each of them We gave the scripture. They were given the authority to re-proclaim the Torah that people had forsaken. The same happened when David was given the Zabur (Psalms), and when Jesus was given the Injeel (if we accept it as a written book). So, Allah sent prophets in different nations and different times everytime they needed a commander/leader, or went astray from (existing) laws of God. They either re-proclaimed the existing laws or brought a new law that fitted better the circumstances they were in".
Now, I don't know if this view is correct, I don't know if it makes sense (brother Joseph needed to help us on this), but whatever be the truth regarding previous scriptures, I have the Quran that is a confirmer and a continuation of previous laws. The God's laws are still the same ones we find in the Torah, Zabur, Injeel, but Allah made some adjustments that would make it proper for all times until the last day of this world, in difference from previous scriptures that were only for a specific time and circumstance :)
God bless you,
Shalom :)
"Say:"O my slaves who have transgressed against their souls! Despair not of the Mercy of Allah: for Allah forgives all sins: for He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."

Offline good logic

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Re: How many Prophets?
« Reply #16 on: November 29, 2014, 02:48:46 PM »
Greetings Duster.

I will put a summary here. There will be no question marks.

Qoran says the prophets received the "book", "Wisdom" and prophethood.

Qoran has confirmed names for us that were prophets.

Qoran did not name every scripture that each prophet received.

 Qoran gave some examples of scriptures like Abraham the founder of "Islam" ...Moses,Aaron,David ,Solomon... Jesus followers of Abraham s religion"Islam" ,,Mohammed also a follower of Abraham s religion "Islam".
 I believe  the reason Qoran mentions these scriptures is to clarify that there was only one religion ever sent by GOD  "Islam". Time ,places,rules and people may change ,but GOD s religion never changes. One true system for all humanity- Total loyalty and submission to GOD Alone.

Because  Qoran confirms all previous scripture. i,e Qoran is sufficient on its own, we do not need to know every other scripture sent before..

GOD bless you.
Peace.
Total loyalty to GOD
In GOD i TRUST.
https://total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/?page_id=197

Offline Duster

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Re: How many Prophets?
« Reply #17 on: November 30, 2014, 12:26:59 AM »

Shalom / peace goodlogic... thanks for replying.

Qoran did not name every scripture that each prophet received.

 Qoran gave some examples of scriptures like Abraham the founder of "Islam" ...Moses,Aaron,David ,Solomon... Jesus followers of Abraham s religion"Islam" ,,Mohammed also a follower of Abraham s religion "Islam".
 I believe  the reason Qoran mentions these scriptures is to clarify that there was only one religion ever sent by GOD  "Islam". Time ,places,rules and people may change ,but GOD s religion never changes.

I can't seem to think that your reasoning is strong enough. I mean ...what separate scripture did prophet Aaron receive???? Are you suggesting that prophet Aaron would have received a separate scripture from prophet Moses according to your understanding? ....and yet>>> the Jews didn't know about this and also the Quran didn't say so? Do you see what I am saying to you? surely if someone is making a claim, they must be able to back it up with evidence and not just give verses...please let me know what you think.thanks>>>

Offline Seraphina

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Re: How many Prophets?
« Reply #18 on: November 30, 2014, 03:20:39 AM »
Shalom/peace brother/sister Duster,
I agree with your last post. I'd like to know (I'm very curious) if you saw my last post, where I mentioned something I once read, but that honestly never knew whether to agree with it or not. I'd like to see if it makes any sense to you. God bless you,
Your sister,
Seraphina
"Say:"O my slaves who have transgressed against their souls! Despair not of the Mercy of Allah: for Allah forgives all sins: for He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."

Offline good logic

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Re: How many Prophets?
« Reply #19 on: November 30, 2014, 04:15:51 AM »
Greetings Duster.

You said:
I mean ...what separate scripture did prophet Aaron receive???? Are you suggesting that prophet Aaron would have received a separate scripture from prophet Moses according to your understanding?

I have not claimed in any of my posts that Aaron received a separate scripture from Moses? Especially when Qoran says they both received the same scripture. GOD sent them both to Pharoah and "Beni Israeel".

Moses and Aaron received the same Scripture. The Statute book-Furquaan- was given to both Moses and Aaron (37:117 and 21:48).

Qoran says they were both prophets, sent together at the same time and place.

GOD bless you.
Peace.
Total loyalty to GOD
In GOD i TRUST.
https://total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/?page_id=197

Offline Duster

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Re: How many Prophets?
« Reply #20 on: November 30, 2014, 10:44:35 AM »
Shalom / peace good logic....In that case, Lot was also a prophet. Are you suggesting that prophet Lot was given the suhuf with Prophet Abraham? Why does the Quran only mention the suhuf of Abraham and call him a prophet but does not mention any scripture for Lot?....>>If your definition from the Quran is  prophet= someone who brought scripture, then what scripture did Lot bring? From what i remember from the Quran, Lot and Abraham lived in the same time period and were both prophets...>>

Offline good logic

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Re: How many Prophets?
« Reply #21 on: November 30, 2014, 02:37:57 PM »
Greetings Duster.

You said:
Are you suggesting that prophet Lot was given the suhuf with Prophet Abraham? Why does the Quran only mention the suhuf of Abraham and call him a prophet but does not mention any scripture for Lot?....>>If your definition from the Quran is  prophet= someone who brought scripture, then what scripture did Lot bring? From what i remember from the Quran, Lot and Abraham lived in the same time period and were both prophets...>>


Again, I am not suggesting what you said, neither do I speculate on what Lot has received.

I will clarify for you and others what I said, so that there will be no suggestions, misunderstandings ...!

"Qoran gave us the names of some prophets in surah 6 :83-86- Verse 89 clarifies that they were given a "book", Wisdom" and prophethood, they include Lot. There are also  names of other prophets given in other verses - see my posts in this thread-".

Qoran , not me, said they received a "book". If Qoran has not told us which book , I certainly would not be able to tell you or speculate.

Yes Lot ,like the others, received a "book", Qoran has not said which ,so I will not speculate.

What I said is ,since we have Qoran and it confirms the scriptures and is fully detailed... We do not need to know.

I believe Qoran I accept what Qoran says. That is my position on prophets.

GOD bless you.
Peace.
Total loyalty to GOD
In GOD i TRUST.
https://total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/?page_id=197

Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: How many Prophets?
« Reply #22 on: December 01, 2014, 10:35:26 AM »
Dear brother IjazAhmad and the respected readers who have solicited my person opinion,

As-salamu alaykum

In the article that brother Ijaz referenced and shared as reference [1] below, I discussed the aspects of a prophetic ministry. However, please find below a brief elucidation.


(1) A Brief Theological Survey of the Term 'Prophet':

The Quran mentions many prophets by name, that were also known to the followers of the previous scriptures who spoke Arabic, and with whom the Quran also conversed with as part of Prophet Muhammad's ministry.

The Quran would arguably not have invented a new meaning of a word or ‘title’, but presented facts that would have been clearly discernible to that particular audience.

After all, prophets such as Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Moses, Aaron, David and Solomon would have been clearly recognisable to the Children of Israel.  In this regard, not only is the Hebrew 'Nabi' remarkably similar to the Arabic word 'Nabiy' (prophet), the Quran mentions these prophets with narratives which assumes complete familiarity, at least to the Arab speaking Jews and Christians.

For example, it refers to prophets that were slain (2:61;  2:91; 3:21; 3:112; 3:181; 3:183; 4:155; 5:70) which also finds support in the Bible (Matthew 23:37; Luke 11:47-49) and may also be known through their traditions and knowledge at the time. The Quran provides detailed narratives of many Hebrew prophets which equally find support in both the Old and New Testaments.

Therefore, the Arabic word 'Nabiy' and the meaning of such a title would not have been a new concept, but one that those of the previous scriptures readily related to as a reference to their noble patriarchs regardless of whether they agreed with the Quran's claims or not.


(2) As mentioned in the article, the Quran refers to prophets as those who:

  • Were given a Book (kitab - 6:89)
  • Were given judgment and authority (hukm 6:89; 3:79)
  • Were given / granted wisdom (hikma 3:81)

It is important to remember that a Book can consist of inspired writings, thoughts, judgments and wisdom. The Hebrew Tanakh is replete with such writings of the prophets. 

Therefore, these aspects of prophethood do not necessarily always need to be seen as distinct but its interrelationship bears considering, at least from a Quran's perspective. For example, Prophet Jesus was given / granted the 'Injeel' which can be argued as 'wisdom' [2] which was later taken down by the testimonies of other writers.  However, Prophet Jesus would also have been familiar with the Torah laws and could have quite reasonably been expected to offer his judgment based on these scriptures, which could also find its way into the Injeel as wisdom.

The fact that scriptures have been used by prophets to provide judgment is emphasised in the following verse:

002.213 (part)
"Mankind were one community, and God sent (to them) Prophets as bearers of good tidings and as warners, and revealed with them the Scripture (Arabic: Kitaba) in truth that it might judge between mankind concerning that wherein they differed..."

Therefore, a Book, Judgment and Wisdom can be interlinked and these characteristics should be viewed holistically when referring to prophets.  For example, Prophets David and Solomon gave judgement regarding the field (21:78-79). Prophets Moses and Aaron were sent to Pharaoh and the Children of Israel and in one narrative at least, Prophet Aaron was expected to show judgment and authority over his people (20:92-94).


(3) They have the ability to provide prophecy (as part of the wisdom bestowed on them):

The ability to provide prophecies by God's will (a prediction of what will happen in the future), is certainly alluded to by many passages of the Quran. For example, a prophet to the Children of Israel was able provide signs when the Ark would come to them (2:248). Prophet Joseph was able to interpret dreams as indicators of future events. Prophet Jacob similarly was aware of knowledge from God which was not available to others (12:86). Other prophets, including prophet Muhammad were able to provide knowledge of future events in the form of Divine inspirations whether dealing with eschatology or future events within a relatively short period of time (30:3-4). This certainly appears to broaden the remit of 'wisdom' (hikmah) that prophets were granted.


(4) They have Divinely appointed authority over their followers and arguably, greater responsibility than messengers:

As intimated above, prophets are given clear authority and often (if not always) assume leadership roles over their communities. As shared in the article, this can be attested by numerous verses, not least the one below:

008.067
“It is not fitting for a prophet that he should have prisoners of war until he has thoroughly subdued the land. You look for the temporal goods of this world; but God looks to the Hereafter: And God is Exalted in might, Wise”

Such commanding authority can also be seen in many verses where the prophet is urged to fight and strive against wanton transgression (8:65-67), deal with matters of jurisprudence (65:1; 5:42), and even in his own marital relationships, when spoken with authority, Muhammad is referred to as a prophet (33:28). Prophet Muhammad was even given authority to pass judgment over the Children of Israel if he so desired (5:42).

Even God took a covenant 'through' the prophets (3:81) and with their respective people and communities who ratified the covenant. Therefore, each prophet took a covenant with his community, that if a messenger (or messengers) (the singular can be used to denote a generic 'messenger(s)') came to them confirming what was with them, then they would be expected to render him / them help. [3]

Such command and authority is unmistakable when understanding the ambit of a prophetic ministry.


(5) They are bearers of good news / warners:

002:213
"Mankind were one community, and God raised up (unto them) prophets as bearers of good tidings and as warners, and revealed with them the Book with the truth that it might judge between mankind concerning that in what they differed..."

The bearing of 'news' also finds support in the lexical meaning of the word 'Naba' which primarily means a tiding, news or a piece of information, intelligence or announcement  (naba) (3:44; 5:27; 6:34)


(6) Prophets are in the main, divinely trained for the office of Prophethood:

Albeit, some prophets were granted wisdom at a very young age (Prophets John -19:12 and Jesus - 19:30), others were trained under God's watchful eye to make them fit for the role of prophethood.

Prophet Moses was given shelter in the house of none other than Pharaoh and was fashioned / formed / reared / trained (Arabic: sana'a) under God's watchful eye (20:39). He endured much hardship and was taught in various ways so that he may grow to understand the Lord's guidance and ways. The teaching imparted by God's servant to Prophet Moses exquisitely captures this in the narratives of verses 18:60-18:82. Prophet Joseph endured much hardship and endured with patience even though he was incarcerated for a crime he did not commit (12:33). Prophet Jonah was tried and even though he fell short of what was required of him when he sought to flee from his people (37:141-143), he was nevertheless restored to another community which believed in him (37:147-148). Prophet David was given might and showed courage when he slew Goliath. God gave him the kingdom and taught him His ways (2:251). At times he was taught powerful lessons as was the case with the litigants that entered his royal chambers (38:21-25). Prophet Abraham pondered deeply over the heavens (6:75-79) and was taught by God to understand his signs (6:75). He endured hardship from his people which strengthened his resolve (21:68-69). Prophet Muhammad arguably, was similarly trained and only achieved prophethood in his later years (10:16).

Therefore, the office of prophethood seems to require God's chosen agents to be prepared for such a mighty task. As mentioned in section (4) above, prophets assume great responsibilities with the authority they are granted.


(7) Inherited scriptures, inspired writings, new scripture and law:

From a Quran's perspective, it can be argued that it is not always necessary that each 'prophet' be given a separate distinguishable / new scripture or that he brings a scripture with new law. This may appear as an unwarranted restriction on the interpretation of  'Being granted / given the Book' and such beliefs are often asserted, but not always demonstrated. At times scriptures can be inherited (waritha) or placed amongst the seed of a community (7:169-170; 5:20; 57:26) and furthermore, judgment, wisdom and authority can become the source of further inspired writings / scriptures.

For example, the Book (2:87) and command (28:44) were given to Prophet Moses on the mount (7:142-145) and not to Prophet Aaron (who remained amongst his people), but they are both considered as prophets by the Quran as Prophet Aaron would have also received the Scripture and Law by proxy from Prophet Moses. However, (more importantly) they both (collectively) exercised authority and judgment by Divine command. They also made use of the Book as a criterion (to judge) (21:48). Hence they are referred to as 'prophets'.

Prophet Zachariah and John would have also inherited the many scriptures that preceded them including the Torah given to Prophets Moses and Aaron. Prophets Ishmael and Isaac would have arguably inherited the scriptures (suhuf) from their father Abraham (87:18) and in Prophet Isaac's case, one would reasonably expect his father’s teachings / suhuf to have passed down to Prophet Jacob. However, even though Prophet Jacob would have been reasonably expected to pass wisdom and the teachings of the scripture to his sons, only Joseph is referred to as a prophet. Here once again, the element of authority and judgment is what possibly distinguishes Joseph from his other brothers and not simply him having received a separate scripture. Such 'inheritance' or passing down of scriptures (waritha) is not unknown to the Quran. This can be attested from verses such as 7:169-170 and 57:26. The Psalms of David as inspired writings (zabur) (4:163; 17:55) include hymns as songs of praise for God (34:10), lamentations both communal and personal, and matters dealing with specific incidents as a reminder (54:52). It would be inconceivable that Prophet David's Psalms would not have passed to Prophet Solomon, his son.

It is also not necessary that the prophets write Scripture with their own hands. Certainly from a Quran's perspective, human scribes fulfilled this noble task (80.13-16), but the inspiration was directly communicated by the prophet under his watchful eye. [4].

As noted above as in the case of Prophet Jesus, such inspired prophetic wisdom can also be taken down by later writers as in the case of the Gospels which is later read as Scriptures by its adherents. Certainly the Gospels that were being read by the Christian communities or the Torah being read by the Jewish communities at the time of Prophet Muhammad's ministry and with whom he came in contact, were not reading Books written by Prophet Jesus's own hands or Prophet Moses' (5:68).

However, it is the aspect of 'judgment' and 'authority' along with wisdom, which is often overlooked when understanding the term 'prophet' (Nabiy) from a Quran's perspective.

Finally, the Quran alludes to many prophets having been sent (e.g. 3:146; 4:163-164), but does not provide a particular number or names of all the prophets. This is not deemed as important from a Quranic perspective.


I hope this clarifies, God willing
Joseph


REFERENCES:

[1] END OF PROPHETHOOD - CONTINUATION OF MESSENGERS?
http://quransmessage.com/articles/end%20of%20prophethood%20FM3.htm
[2] WHAT IS THE INJEEL?
http://quransmessage.com/articles/injeel%20FM3.htm
[3] IS VERSE 3:81 A REFERENCE TO ANY PARTICULAR MESSENGER?
http://quransmessage.com/articles/3-81%20FM3.htm
[4] THE COMPILATION OF THE QURAN
http://quransmessage.com/articles/the%20compilation%20of%20the%20quran%20FM3.htm
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell

Offline Duster

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Re: How many Prophets?
« Reply #23 on: December 02, 2014, 12:01:34 AM »
Shalom / peace brother Joseph ...>>> Thanks so much for such a detailed explanation!! really is insightful.

Offline IjazAhmad

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Re: How many Prophets?
« Reply #24 on: December 02, 2014, 03:14:35 AM »
Peace be with you dear br. Joseph!

Thank you so much for a detailed explanation   :) - Thank you everyone for giving me an answer!  :)

Regards,
Ijaz, A.

Offline Seraphina

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Re: How many Prophets?
« Reply #25 on: December 03, 2014, 06:13:14 AM »
Peace be with you all, especially brother Joseph,
Thank you so much for taking time to give us this beautifully explained answer! I'm so glad especially regarding the section 7 of your answer, (where you explain that not every prophet received a scripture of his own). The conclusions you share there are nearly the same ones I had reached, and your answer helped me to define them. I'm so happy I'm learning so many things so fast. May God bless you along with brothers Good logic and Duster :)
Your sister,
Seraphina
"Say:"O my slaves who have transgressed against their souls! Despair not of the Mercy of Allah: for Allah forgives all sins: for He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."

Offline Student

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Re: How many Prophets?
« Reply #26 on: February 22, 2016, 01:13:17 PM »
Salamun Alaykum,

Br. Joseph,

Mashallah, yet again very thoroughly researched piece of work. Simply amazing!
Just one thing that caught me by little surprise when you said (emphasis mine):
Quote
Other prophets, including prophet Muhammad were able to provide knowledge of future events in the form of Divine inspirations whether dealing with eschatology or future events within a relatively short period of time (30:3-4)

Isn't the entire Quran a reminder for a dreadful Day to come eons after the departure of the ProphetSAS? If I'm not wrong your stand on "Splitting of the Moon" is also a future event which hasn't happened yet (1400+ years and counting after the prophecy was made) - how do you then reconcile when you restrict the prophecy to within few years only? Just curious if I miss something or misread your assertion completely?

Thanks for your valuable time!
May Allah swt bless your Imaan to perfection!
~ Student
Thanks,
~ Student

Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: How many Prophets?
« Reply #27 on: August 01, 2016, 10:12:57 AM »
Salamun Alaykum,

Br. Joseph,

Mashallah, yet again very thoroughly researched piece of work. Simply amazing!
Just one thing that caught me by little surprise when you said (emphasis mine):
Quote
Other prophets, including prophet Muhammad were able to provide knowledge of future events in the form of Divine inspirations whether dealing with eschatology or future events within a relatively short period of time (30:3-4)

Isn't the entire Quran a reminder for a dreadful Day to come eons after the departure of the ProphetSAS? If I'm not wrong your stand on "Splitting of the Moon" is also a future event which hasn't happened yet (1400+ years and counting after the prophecy was made) - how do you then reconcile when you restrict the prophecy to within few years only? Just curious if I miss something or misread your assertion completely?

Thanks for your valuable time!
May Allah swt bless your Imaan to perfection!
~ Student

Dear Student, 

As-salamu alaykum

I dealt with that in the same sentence when I mentioned 'eschatology'.

I trust that clarifies, God willing.

Regards
Joseph
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell