Tawrat to Musa AS

[Student]

Salaamun Alayka,
Sir Joseph,

I'm not sure if you know Urdu or not  but this person has made the well trained traditional scholar speechless:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7E62Jh9W34&t=0s&index=44&list=LLmPKXzuYZrU2L0HjhOarTyw

The challenge he is basically making is to show just one place where the word Tawrat (which occurred 18 times) comes together with Musa AS (which occurred 136 times) in the entire Quran.

It's very interesting challenge. Hope you shed some light here.

[Ocyid]

Hello students, Salamun Alaikum

Sorry, the question is not aimed for me, but since I am writing around this topic, maybe I could give you a little bit information. However, please notice that this is just some kind of preliminary thought. I have not entered much in this particular area. Moreover, I do not understand what Youtube guys are talking about and maybe, I assume, as well as those who don't speak Urdu. So, could you enlighten us a little bit?

I did a little research before writing this. But, since it is just a very fast research, you may want to re-research it yourself.

From what I could find, the mentioning that Moses was "given" (ātaynā) the "Scripture" (l-kitāba) is mentioned in, at least,  these verses:

11:110
17:2
23:49
25:35
28:43
32:23
41:45

Then it is explained that the "Scripture/Book" (l-kitāba) is "inherited" (wa-awrathnā) to "Children of Israil" (banī is'rāīla). It is explained in 40:53. Please note that in this verse, it is mentioned that Moses was given "guidance" (l-hudā) and the "Scripture" was inherited to the Children of Israil. Therefore, after that, the "Scripture" was given to Bani Israil (Children of Israil). This is mentioned in 45:16. Besides the "Scripture", there are (or were) also other things that have been given to Bani Israil mentioned in 45:16. You can see this in http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=45&verse=16#(45:16:1). Here is the Sahih International version of the verse:

And We did certainly give the Children of Israel the Scripture and judgement and prophethood, and We provided them with good things and preferred them over the worlds

Another thing that may be worth to note is the term "given" (ātaynā). In these verses, it is mentioned that Moses was "given" the scripture. Here, I include a phrase from 17:2 as an example: waātaynā mūsā l-kitāba (And we gave Musa the Book [the Scripture]). This is quite different from Yahya for instance; that although he is mentioned along with the "Scripture" in 19:12, the word that "links" both terms is "khudhi". In the word-to-word translation, it is translated into "hold", while multiple translators used different words to translate this Arabic word (see http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=19&verse=12 for further detail).

Now, either unfortunately or fortunately, (based on my finding) these verses do not "literally" mentioned "Taurat/Tawrat/Torah" (this is just a spelling variations, not a big deal), but simply "Scripture" (l-kitāba). The term or word Taurat ("l-tawrāta" and its variants) are "literally" mentioned in 3:3, 3:48, 3:50, 3:65, 3:93, 5:43, 5:44, 5:46, 5:66, 5:68, 5:110, 7:157, 48:29, 61:6, and 62:5.

Based on this findings (at least so far), it is actually true that the term "Taurat" (l-tawrāta) is never mentioned alongside Musa/Moses. The "Book" given to Musa/Moses is mentioned simply as "Scripture" (l-kitāba). In fact, the Arabic term "l-tawrāta" (Taurat) is actually related (several times) to the narration of Isa ibn Maryam in 3:48, 3:50, 5:46, 5:110, and 61:6.

Now, this is indeed interesting. If we pay attention to this particular matter, it is actually explained in at least two verses that Isa ibn Maryam was "taught" (whatever this might imply) both the "Scripture" and "Taurat". These verses are 3:48 and 5:110. If the grammar translation is correct, please note that in 3:48 the word used is "wayuʿallimuhu" (translated into "And He will teach Him"), while in 5:110 the word used is "ʿallamtuka" (translated into "I taught you"). Again, if the translation is correct, apparently there is a distance in "time" between the two events. However, both the "Scripture" (l-kitāba) and the "Taurat" (wal-tawrāta) are mentioned at the same time in these two verses. That could mean there are two (or even three) different Holy Books "taught" to Isa ibn Maryam. In fact, there are actually four things taught to Isa ibn Maryam informed in 3:48 and 5:110:

l-kitāba (the "Book" or "Scripture" in verses I mentioned above) wal-ḥik'mata (and [the] wisdom) wal-tawrāta (and the Taurat) wal-injīla (and the Injeel)

This is actually not surprising, since the Jews actually have some other books outside of the Torah like Biblical Hebrew or/and the Tanakh. Note: I do not know the difference between the two books, hence I use the "or/and". The Christians too are familiar with the Old and New Testament, which is likely the "Taurat" and the "Injeel" mentioned in Quran - but maybe not necessarily the "Scripture" of Moses/Musa. However, it might be a little surprising for the Muslims, because (apparently) many Muslims think "Taurat" as the "Book" given to Musa (Moses). This is the likely explanation for the common misunderstanding.

I clearly do not know to whom "Taurat" was sent down to, at least for now. However, if you follow the information provided by the Quran, you will (at the very least) find many useful information. In 5:44-45 for instance, Quran actually informs what is inside the "Taurat":

And We ordained for them therein a life for a life, an eye for an eye, a nose for a nose, an ear for an ear, a tooth for a tooth, and for wounds is legal retribution. But whoever gives [up his right as] charity, it is an expiation for him. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed – then it is those who are the wrongdoers (5:45)

Now, the interesting fact is that such laws (lex talionis) are also found in Code of Hammurabi. This code was rediscovered in 1901 (http://www.history.com/topics/ancient-history/hammurabi). There are indeed (as usual) some controversies regarding the similarity of lex talionis (an eye for an eye) between the Torah and the Code of Hammurabi. You can read one here: https://www.gotquestions.org/Moses-Hammurabi-code.html. Others simply discuss the similarities and differences between both ancient texts. You can read an example here: http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/7150-hammurabi if you are not lazy enough, or you can see brief presentation here: https://prezi.com/wazc-qsf-hhn/hammurabis-code-vs-torah/, which I do not recommend to get -at least- basic understanding.

Despite the controversies, the discovery of Hammurabi stele actually proves (at the very least) such laws existed a long time ago. However, since right now I am not focusing on this particular problem, I do not know whether the "things/rules" mentioned in 5:45 are also mentioned in both "Torah" and "Code of Hammurabi" or not. If the passages mentioned in "5:45" are also mentioned in "Torah" and "Code of Hammurabi", they might be connected somehow. Yet, this will need a (predictably long and deep) research between these three "Ancient Texts" - but at least we know that they are somehow connected.

Besides the brief information that I maybe should not have given right here - right now above, Quran actually has given us clear information about the possible time-range for the "Taurat" and about what happened to the "Scripture" (l-kitāba) sent down to Moses.

Although the information provided in 3:48 and 5:110 stated that God taught Isa ibn Maryam the Taurat, at least three verses of Quran inform us that the Taurat came before Isa ibn Maryam. These three verses are 3:50, 5:46, and 61:6. Well, at least that is what is implied in the translation. Since (I must admit) I do not understand Arabic, maybe you can enlighten me about this phrase:

(wa)muṣaddiqan¹ limā² bayna³ yadayya (yadayhi)⁴ mina⁵ l-tawrāti⁶

It is literally translated into "confirming¹ that which² (was)/(was) between³ before me/his hands/my hands⁴ of⁵ the Taurat⁶".

It is also explained that the Torah was sent down after Ibrahim in 3:65.  From these verses, it is actually clear that the "Taurat" was sent down after Ibrahim (3:65) but before Isa ibn Maryam (3:50, 5:46, and 61:6). There is actually another mentioning regarding "Taurat" sent down "after" Israil (is'rāīlu) in 3:93. Israil in 3:93 is interpreted as "Yaqub" (Jacob) in my Indonesian version of the Quran. Since here I try to stick with the Quran, I will let it be. You can explain it further if you wish in the comment section below. However, I hesitate to include it here because I have a little question regarding 3:93. In 3:93, it is informed that:

All food was lawful to the Children of Israel except what Israel had made unlawful to himself before the Torah was revealed

Now, the question here is that: was "Israil" still alive during the revelation of "Taurat"? This verse actually could imply two different understandings. First, that "Israil" forbade himself to eat "certain" foods until the revelation of "Taurat", which means he is still alive during the revelation of "Taurat". Or, it is "Children of Israil" who followed Israil in forbiding "certain" foods until the revelation of "Taurat", which could imply the revelation itself happened far after the time of "Israil". These are two different understandings. However, please understand that this is just a question not an interpretation. Please enlighten me regarding this particular problem.

Besides explaining the possible timeline, Quran actually also provides us with information about what happened to the "Tablet" (l-alwāḥi - as explained in 7:145) given to Moses/Musa. So far, I have found several verses regarding this particular information and try to place it into what apparently chronological order of the narration itself:

6.154: Then We gave Moses the Scripture [l-kitāba], making complete [Our favor] upon the one who did good and as a detailed explanation of all things and as guidance and mercy that perhaps in [the matter of] the meeting with their Lord they would believe - Sahih International

7.145: And We wrote for him on the tablets [l-alwāḥi] [something] of all things - instruction and explanation for all things - Sahih International

7.150: And when Moses returned to his people, angry and grieved, he said, "How wretched is that by which you have replaced me after [my departure]. Were you impatient over the matter of your Lord?" And he threw down the tablets [l-alwāḥa] and seized his brother by [the hair of] his head, pulling him toward him- Sahih International

7.169: And there followed them successors who inherited the Scripture [l-kitāba] [while] taking the commodities of this lower life and saying, "It will be forgiven for us." And if an offer like it comes to them, they will [again] take it. Was not the covenant of the Scripture taken from them that they would not say about Allah except the truth, and they studied what was in it? And the home of the Hereafter is better for those who fear Allah , so will you not use reason? - Sahih International

28.48: But when the truth came to them from Us, they said, "Why was he not given like that which was given to Moses?" Did they not disbelieve in that which was given to Moses before? They said, "[They are but] two works of magic supporting each other, and indeed we are, in both, disbelievers. - Sahih International

6.91: And they did not appraise Allah with true appraisal when they said, " Allah did not reveal to a human being anything." Say, "Who revealed the Scripture [l-kitāba] that Moses brought as light and guidance to the people? You [Jews] make it into pages (parchments) [qarāṭīsa], disclosing [some of] it and concealing much. And you were taught that which you knew not - neither you nor your fathers." Say, " Allah [revealed it]." Then leave them in their [empty] discourse, amusing themselves - Sahih International

42.14: And they did not become divided until after knowledge had come to them - out of jealous animosity between themselves. And if not for a word that preceded from your Lord [postponing the penalty] until a specified time, it would have been concluded between them. And indeed, those who were granted inheritance of the Scripture [l-kitāba] after them are, concerning it, in disquieting doubt - Sahih International

Now, if you follow these verses in Quran, you will see several historical information that actually explains within verses of Quran. The original form of the Book of Moses for instance, is explained in 7:145 and 7:150. The content is explained in 6:154, while the content of the "Taurat" is explained separately in 5:44-45. And, what happened to this "Scripture" is explained further in 7:169 and 6:91. As the consequence, the people who inherited this "Book" are (still) or were (at least some point in time) actually "in doubt" (42:14) or even "disbelieve" (28:48) in it. The "fate" of the "Scripture" given to Moses is actually clearly explained in Quran - and that "fate" happened as the result of the action conducted by "Its" (the "Book") own people. Hopefully, this will give us (the people of Quran) a very good lesson.

Until this point, the conclusion is still the same that the mentioning of the "Book" given to Moses/Musa is not "Taurat" ("l-tawrāta") in these verses, but rather the "Scripture" (l-kitāba). The question is: are there two different "Books"?

Well, Allah knows best regarding this particular matter and we don't know anything, except what is explained in the Quran itself!

A little bit additional information, besides "Scripture" (l-kitāba), there are also the mentioning of the Arabic word "ṣuḥufi" of Musa (Moses) in at least two verses 53:36 and 87:19. Unfortunately, the translations are not quite consistent. In Indonesian version of the Quran, "ṣuḥufi" is translated into "lembaran-lembaran" (or roughly translated "pages") in 53:36, while the same word is translated into "Kitab" (Scripture) in 87:19. In Corpus.Quran.com, the word "ṣuḥufi" is simply translated into "Scriptures" in word-to-word translation. In 53:36, Sahih International and Shakir use "Scriptures" in translating this word, while Pickthall, Yusuf Ali use "Books" (in plural) and Sarwar use "Book" (singular). Only Mohsin uses "Pages" with the word "Scripture" in bracket and Arberry uses "Scrolls". For 87:19, most translators use the word "Scriptures". Only Pickthall and Yusuf Ali use the word "Books" and Arberry is consistent in using "Scrolls".

By the way, if you Google the web, there are information about "Suhufi Musa", which is translated into "Scrolls of Moses"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrolls_of_Moses. I, based on the information presented in 7:145, don't think this "Suhufi" is a "scroll" at all. How do you "scroll" a "Tablet" - preferably, one made from stone? There are many examples of ancient Stone Tablets. You can see the example here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_Hebrew or the general understanding here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tablets_of_Stone. Please notice, I do not say those are the "Tablet" mentioned in Quran; those are just examples I include to make you easier in understanding what a stone tablet is (sometimes, I do really have to give this kind of explanation to avoid some unintentionally misunderstanding).

If we think it through, the basic question would be: why these two verses use the word "Suhufi" instead of "l-kitāba"?. Does it have something to do with the mentioning of "Ibrahim/Abraham" related to both verses? Or, does it emphasize on different things? Now, since I do not know what are the meanings (plural) of this word, I cannot say much. Yet, if this Arabic word can be translated into "pages", it is quite intriguing to think that apparently there is more than one Tablet (l-alwāḥi) that were given to Moses/Musa (and possibly Ibrahim/Abraham) based on 7:145. I simply think maybe "Suhufi" here simply means "more than one Tablet" or "pages of (stone) Tablet". Again, the point of reference would be information given in 7:145. However, this would depend on the meanings of the word "ṣuḥufi" itself - I could be wrong tho .

Well, this turns out to be *unexpectedly* very-very long explanation... I am sorry for that. However, please remember this is actually my quick research. Thus, I really expect we can further develop this together. And, please note that this kind of information is not supposed to divide us; so what if it turns out the "Scripture" and "Taurat" are two different Books? So what if it turns out to be the same Book? God already gave us the Quran... So?

Please understand, that this kind of information is supposed to be made as a starting point of further research that will give benefit for both Islam and Jews alike and -the most important thing- lesson for us to not repeat the same mistake ever again! I hope the information I presented here not merely to be made into some sort of argument to claim who is right and who is wrong! This is so uncalled for! Unless we are determined to clarify this "misinformation" about the "Scripture" given to Moses, I don't think we should bring this into some unnecessary arguments to separate us further from our own brothers and sisters. It would be an empty "discourse" to satisfy our own pleasure, but not necessarily "disclose" the truth veiled within the mist of time.

Please, try to understand it (or maybe I should make it easier... poor me for this  ).

In the end, I hope this information is useful for you and any further researches for the benefit of us all. All the mistakes you found in here are solely my fault - my responsibility. All that are good must be coming from Quran. So, don't stop learning Quran  I personally hope this information is permanently attached in this forum so people can either add information that I failed to notice from the Quran or simply criticize it. But, that is not a decision for me to made.

I guess that's it for me now or until I find something else. Hopefully, you find useful things from this writing. I hope you have a nice day

Salamun Alaikum,



From: Ocyid, Your Indonesian friend 

[Student]

Walekumus Salaam,
Dear Ocyid,

You don't have to be sorry for detailed explanation of your understanding of the subject, if anything I'm grateful for anyone/everyone who responds to my query even if it is addressing directly to Sir Joseph.
I'm very thankful to you for the time and effort you put in to answer my query. I humbly think you first study closely Sir Joseph's articles on every subject and then based on your prior studies and understanding you can either get clarifications or challenge him purely from Quran's basis if you differ (on this forum, the main purpose would then be better served I trust).

l-kitāba (the "Book" or "Scripture" in verses I mentioned above) wal-ḥik'mata (and [the] wisdom) wal-tawrāta (and the Taurat) wal-injīla (and the Injeel)

Sir Joseph thinks otherwise (2 and not 4 as most of us think)

The significance of the above verse is evident. The ‘al-Kitab’ (definite noun) is strongly equated with the Torah and the Injeel with ‘Wisdom’.

That still begs the question if Torah is strongly equated with al-Kitab why Quran never mentioned Torah with Musa AS even once while it freely uses its equivalent (synonym?) in associating it with him?

All I know with confidence is Quran's choice of words is perfect and with laser precision, which Sir Joseph himself banks on heavily to rightly dismiss many non-Quranic notions and beliefs held by Muslims.

[Ocyid]

Helo student, nice to know you read my article hehe

I thank you for your suggestion, but unfortunately I have my own method than the way you are suggesting

I think every study of Quran should be first based on Quran and Quran alone, not based on other people's interpretation. Human's interpretation regarding Quran, including mine, is highly based on our limitation as a creature that so much depends on the context we are living in, like time, space, and background study. That's why the interpretation of humans regarding Quran shall be put as considerations only: a speculation, nonetheless. Unless there are solid evidences that can support a "speculation", any explanations should be made as considerations only - not necessarily a "fact". this is actually the lesson in 39:18. We should not make this into right or wrong matter, but a "clue" to reveal the truth. Those who really study Quran understand this, since Quran is never aimed to divide people but for us to be a clue to find out the truth. I believe everything in it (3:7).

Now, if you still allow me to learn about this together:

why Quran never mentioned Torah with Musa AS

there are actually three keys to answer it:

1. the consistency
2. the content
3. (what seemingly) historical evidence

1. The Consistency
In Quran, Moses is consistently mentioned to be given the "l-kitāba", while "Tawrat" or "Torah" is mentioned separately.

why? Are there two "Books" instead of one?

If you pay a little attention, the word "l-tawrāta" is actually related to the narration of Isa Ibn Maryam than Moses himself. And, please note that even though I say:

four things taught to Isa ibn Maryam

I did not mean there are "four" Books. The word "wal-ḥik'mata" (the wisdom) is often (if not always) mentioned together with "l-kitāba" (the book) such as in 2:129, 2:151, 2:231, and more, which means the Book along with the understanding of it. Thus, I believe there are "three" Books instead of four. Although such interpretation is also possible:

l-kitāba (the "Book" or "Scripture" in verses I mentioned above) wal-ḥik'mata (and [the] wisdom) [which is:] wal-tawrāta (and the Taurat) wal-injīla (and the Injeel)

Those who understand it this way will think there are "two" Books. This is clearly acceptable, if we only consider the verse itself. But, this does not answer the question of why "all" of the verses of Moses that mentioned about "The Book" (The Scripture) does not directly say "Tawrat" or "Torah". Or, why does "The Book" and "The Wisdom" is mentioned in the "usual order" followed by "Tawrat" and "Injeel" than simply say "The Taurat/Torah" "The Injeel/Gospel" and "The Wisdom"?

Surely, Allah (THE God) is the Only One to know about it... or is it there IS "another" book than we have previously known?

A little additional information, there is information that  the "Scripture" (l-kitāba) is given to Yahya in 19:12 and the Book alone without mentioning any other scriptures. It is indeed intriguing to think the "Scripture" was, in the end, given to different "group of people". But, this will need to be proven.

People can "assume" anything about this information. Is the "l-kitāba" or the "scripture" a reference for the "Tawrat" or the "l-tawrāta" itself or is there simply another book? But, assumption is nothing more but an assumption - not necessarily a "fact". So, how do we know it actually refers to one book or there are actually two books instead?

2. The Content
First, I must to admit, there is actually a link between the "Tawrat" and the "Scripture of Moses" which is the mentioning of "light and guidance" in 5:44 (Torah) and 6:91 (the Scripture of Moses). But, still, the content of the "Scripture" (literally) and the content of Tawrat are explained in different narration. The content of Tawrat is mentioned in 5:44 and specified in 5:45: "an eye for an eye". The law mentioned in 5:45 nowadays known as "Lex Talionis". Meanwhile, the content and even the "form" of the Scripture of Moses is explained in 7:145: "instruction and explanation for all things". The question about the content of the Book or Books would be very crucial to answer all of the questions. But, if we start with the assumption that there is only one book, who will search for the "other" book? Remember, there must be a fine reason why Quran does not directly state "Tawrah" instead.

Moreover, if you gather the verses regarding the l-kitāba and the l-tawrāta, you will see these two books have what seemingly to be different "ending". The Tawrat is narated to (still) be held by the Jews (hādū) in 5:41-43 even before Isa Ibn Maryam (5:46), while the Scripture was made into "parchment" in 6:91. This, again, is interested to be researched further. Could it be that the "Torah" is the "Parchments" of what used to be the (complete) "Scripture of Moses"?

But the most interesting thing is actually the last key: (what seemingly) historical evidence.

3. Historical Evidence
I do not know how much you are aware of this, but to answer either the Scripture of Moses and Tawrat refer to the same Book or not actually also means to answer the similarities between The Code of Hammurabi and the Torah itself. And, interestingly, Quran could give us the answer. Please read the following article to get the insight of the problem:

https://www.gotquestions.org/Moses-Hammurabi-code.html
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/7150-hammurabi#

Hammurabi himself was speculated to live before Moses. Now, how come similar laws have already existed before The God Himself sent His Divine Words? Does God copy the laws made by mankind? I am a believer, I believe it is the otherwise. But, this is what I believe in, not necessarily a "fact". Could it be that, somehow, Hammurabi, the God-fearing prince, got the laws of God from "someone" before Moses? Who was this person and how come he possessed Book that confirmed the Words of God even before the revelation itself?

I hope you get the basic conception. Something must have been mixed during the course of history that happened more than 3000 years ago and, interestingly, a Book that was "sent down" only around 600 AD could shed light to the whole questions...

But, to answer the whole questions, there are logical methods to follow, not simply "claims"! And this is how we, muslims, actually could prove the truth in Quran with something that nobody else could answer before. It is just like the question of "Makkah and Bakkah".

I personally do not aim to make myself right; I simply give you the truth. But, if the Scripture and the Tawrat turn out to be two different books, I really would love to read the first one. Please note I gave you verses that connect the Tawrat and the Scripture together.

By the way, if you are interested to read the full laws, you can find it on the internet like this one:

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/ancient/hamcode.asp

It would even better if you could compare it to the Tawrat itself like in this site:

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/the-tanakh-full-text

We seriously need to challenge ourselves to move forward than to simply accept what is fed to us. I do hope you conduct your own research. I could be wrong and others too. I believe any study of the Quran should be aimed to encourage others to prove the truth within the Quran rather than to follow what is "claimed" to be right and wrong. Who knows you are the one to tell us the truth regarding this particular matter. Remember: God gives to whomever He pleases  .

Sorry for another long writing Mr. Student. Really want to go deeper about this particular matter, but kind of running out of time. I hope one day you are the one that can show me the truth.

Have a good day friend.
Salamun Alaikum 

[Aijaz]

Salam
Thanks Brother Oycid for detailed analysis.
A related question is, will it conflict with any Ayat of Quran if we theorize that Al-Kitab, Taurat, Injeel, Zaboor, Quran, Furqan, Zikr, Ilm, Noor, Hikma, Suhuf, Ahasan Al Hadeeth, Ahsan al Qasas, Tablet, Writings etc, are not different items but aspects or attributes of one Revelation from Allah given to all Prophets. In Book form, it is Al-Kitab (i.e written) which is between one's hands and the Rooh/understanding of it verifies with the Book being revealed on one's Nafs.

Thanks
Aijaz

[Aijaz]

https://topicsfromquran.com/2019/03/24/heavenly-book-or-books/

The link to above post researches the topic about the revealed books.