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Offline munir rana

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Prophets recieved scriptures and Messengers reaffirms it
« on: April 01, 2023, 03:49:46 PM »
Dear Brother Joseph

As-salamu Alaykum.

Reading your article `END OF PROPHETHOOD - CONTINUATION OF MESSENGERS?' it becomes clear that Prophets recieved scriptures and Messengers reaffirms it. But in the following verse (4:136) it seems that Messengers also got scriptures. Am I missing anything to understand this verse?

4:136 O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and His Messenger, and the scripture which He hath sent to His Messenger and the scripture which He sent to those before (him). Any who denieth Allah, His angels, His Books, His Messengers, and the Day of Judgment, hath gone far, far astray.

Offline Hamzeh

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Re: Prophets recieved scriptures and Messengers reaffirms it
« Reply #1 on: April 06, 2023, 08:24:36 AM »
Assalamu 3alykum Munir Rana

I hope you dont mind me giving some input on this.


Since we know there is a difference between messengers and prophets, the Quran defines and affirms clearly that prophets are given scriptures and authority. It also defines and affirms that messengers reaffirm the Scriptures that is between their hands and/or to warm of the last Day.

Its also important to note that prophets are automatically by default messengers since 2:213 confirms they also give good news and warnings. So keeping this in mind that prophets are by default and are automatically messengers, then its worthy to note if the messenger that is being mentioned is also a prophet? If he is, then there is absolutely nothing wrong with referring to that person as a messenger with which the scripture is sent down to him as it does hold true.

If the messenger or messengers that is being mentioned in a specific verse is also a prophet then that messenger would also have a scripture sent down with him. The reference in verse 4:136 is to believe in the messenger and what was sent to him and not to define who the messenger is per se.

So in this instance when God is asking the people to believe in His messenger and the scripture which He has send to him we know that this messenger is also a prophet, and its expected that the people understand and know that Muhammad(pbuh) is also a prophet and the seal of the prophet. So in this verse the instruction to believers is to believe in the messenger and the scripture that was sent to him.

There is also a related post [1] that brother Joseph responds to that I share below.

Inshallah this helps.

Salam

[1] 57.25
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=294.msg923#msg923

Offline munir rana

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Re: Prophets recieved scriptures and Messengers reaffirms it
« Reply #2 on: April 06, 2023, 02:09:27 PM »
Brother Hamzeh

Salam.

Thanks for your response. I never mind any response from any forum members, specially yours, which are most of the times, if not always, very useful. I think your input and the link you kindly shared, the explanation of 57:52 by Brother Joseph, will help me to reconcile the issue.

Actually I got a little bit puzzled with the wordings ` and the scripture which He hath sent to His Messenger'. So far as i checked, in no other verses it was said so directly mentioning messenger accepting scripture in that way.
 
Thanks again.

Offline Hamzeh

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Re: Prophets recieved scriptures and Messengers reaffirms it
« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2023, 06:16:49 AM »
Wa 3alykum Assalam Brother Munir


Thank you for the kind response and your welcome.

I do understand what you are saying brother. At the end we can only take the best of what we hear(39:18). So after cross examination and as brother Joseph pointed out in the post, how does one reconcile the traditional view when there is problems like these below? These cannot be overlooked.

Quote
Now if we take the traditional position, we have not one, not two but a plethora of issues. How is the traditional position going to answer the following contentions as clear 'bayyin'?

The correlation of Prophethood and Scripture - 6:89, 2:213, 3:79 and 3:81
That 7:35 clearly talks about the continuation of messengers. Whenever 'Bani Adam' is addressed in this manner in the Quran, the message is generic and not time bound.
The continuation of guidance is mentioned in 2:38, 20:123
No nation is left without a messenger (10:47) and for every people there will be a guide (13:7, 39:71). It would incredulous to assert that no new nation has ever arisen anywhere in the world since the death of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).
The role of a messenger is clearly elucidated in 6:48 - ""We send the messengers only / except (Arabic: illa) to give good news and to warn: so those who believe and mend (their lives), upon them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve". This would be the perfect place to expect the inclusion of scripture or to establish shariah laws.
Who were the messengers (plural) during the ministry of Prophet Muhammad - 23:51-52?
How will the traditional position reconcile Gods decree for the present and the future with regards messengers prevailing - 58:21?
That prophets have greater responsibility and not just to deliver a message - 8:67?
Saleh and Hud are mentioned as messengers in the Quran and never as 'Nabi'. Even in the long list provided by Surah Anaam (Chapter 6) where a number of 'Nabi's' are mentioned, the names 'Saleh' and 'Hud' are absent. If the traditional position is to be accepted by way of the definition of 'rasul', what scriptures did both Saleh and Hud (pbut) bring with them and if so, why are they not mentioned?



Now when we consider the alternate position/view, we dont have any contradictions at all, just a verse or two that should be understood in light of the others verses that are clear.

Ramadan Mubarak to you and all those on the forum Insha'Allah.

Salam  :)