HELP: Pascale's wager means we should be Christian and not Muslim?

[Hamzeh]

Peace Good logic

you said

If one accepts "islam to GOD ,he/she is a "Musl;im to GOD"

It would be true if what you mean by "accepts" as means to implement the rulings, but only as a community based or as a government. Those who follow and implement Islam would be classified as muslims by default. But until its implemented one cannot say they follow Islam. They may believe in it. But they arguably do not follow it only to the limits of the basic tenants as individuals which would label them muslims or mu'mins.

As Islam cannot be practiced and implemented in its entirety on an individual basis, one is not to say I follow Islam because in fact if its not followed by the rules then its not really being followed.

But rather one would say that they would be a submitter to God(Muslim), or a Believer(Mu'min). This solves the whole man made religions and sectarian divides. Either people are Muslims who believe in the One True God and believe in any one of the Scriptures(Christians or Jews from the various sectarian divides, Muslims from different sectarian divides) or they are Mu'mins(believers) who believe in the One True God, His Angels, His Scriptures and Messengers.


If one asks what is the religion/system that God has sent to humanity, one does not respond to it as "Muslim", but rather it would be Islam in arabic.

3:19 The Religion/System(DEENA) before God is Islam(AL-ISLAMU) (submission to His Will): Nor did the People of the Book dissent therefrom except through envy of each other, after knowledge had come to them. But if any deny the Signs of God, God is swift in calling to account.

As stated also before that Islam seems to be system(DEEN) that is given authority and implemented on a society.

5:3(part) This day have I perfected your religion/system(DEENAKUM) for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen(RADEETU) for you “Islam” as your religion/system(DEENAN). But if any is forced by hunger, with no inclination to transgression, Allah is indeed Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

24:55 Allah has promised, to those among you who believe and work righteous deeds, that He will, of a surety, grant them in the land, inheritance/succession (of power), as He granted it to those before them; that He will establish in authority their religion(DEEN) - the one which He has chosen(IRTADA) for them; and that He will change (their state), after the fear in which they (lived), to one of security and peace: 'They will worship Me (alone) and not associate aught with Me. 'If any do reject Faith after this, they are rebellious and wicked.

Islam has its roots before the revelation of the Quran and all the Prophets and messengers were instructed to establish the system of Islam with their respective Scripture.

42:13(part) The same religion/system(DEEN) has He established for you(O'Believers) as that which He enjoined on Noah and that which We have sent by inspiration to thee(O'Muhammad) - and that which We enjoined on Abraham, Moses, and Jesus : (saying)Namely, that ye should establish/enjoin the religion(DEEN), and make no divisions therein:...

An analysis of the Quran seems to illustrate we have 3 different forms of Islam today and all of them are warranted by God(5:43-48).

Islam from the Old Testament
Islam from the New Testament
Islam from the Quran

It could be because of the Quran being the final Scripture and being the seal that it has then been given a name of "Islam".

If I had to translate in English, I would possibly say "Submission to His will and Guidance"

I would use the term Islam in ways only regarding a system/constitution/government.

If you asked me what kind of systems/constitutions do certain countries/governments judge by, I would respond there is, Democratic, Monarchy, Dictatorship, Communism, Socialism, Capitalism, Military, etc.

Islam would be one to include in the list, and those who use the Scriptures would arguably be under an Islamic Law or the Submission to God's Will and Guidance.


From my humble perspective and from the verses and opinions that I have heard concerning this topic it is from the best of what I can understand. May God forgive me for any errors that I have expressed and for any errors of the believers as well Insha'Allah.

Here are some articles[1] that maybe also of assistance to help with this topic Insha'Allah

Thank you brother

May God bless you as well Insha'Allah.

[1]WHAT IS THE TRUE DEFINITION OF 'DEEN' FROM A QURAN'S PERSPECTIVE?
http://quransmessage.com/articles/what%20is%20the%20true%20defintion%20of%20deen%20FM3.htm

IS THE QURAN SIMPLY A REVELATION TO BE UNDERSTOOD AND APPLIED ON A PERSONAL LEVEL?
https://www.facebook.com/joseph.a.islam/posts/538289746308157

[good logic]

Peace Hamzeh.
You seem to agree with me that you find"Islam in past scripture ,yet insist Islam is named from Qoran like here,quote:

It could be because of the Quran being the final Scripture and being the seal that it has then been given a name of "Islam".

Or do you mean you are not sure? Then Qoran clearly told us Islam was named before by Abraham:" Huwa Sammakum Al Muslimeen..."

So it had its roots before that ,Noah was called a Muslim in Qoran .

Also you did not deal with the contradiction mentioned in my last post.

We have to agree to disagree and practise our "Islam to GOD"  as best we can to the best of our knowledge.

One reminder to all of us in Qoran is we return to GOD as individuals-Wa Lakad Jiitumuna FURADA(individuals),like we created you the first time.
Best of luck to you brother and to all my brothers and sisters here and elsewhere.
May the Lord bless you and keep you safe.
Peace.

[Hamzeh]

Peace brother Good logic

I find you still are using the terms "Muslims" and "Islam" to mean the same thing.

you said

You seem to agree with me that you find"Islam in past scripture ,yet insist Islam is named from Qoran like here,

Yes Islam predates the Quran which is confirmed in 42:13. It also predates Abraham(pbuh) as confirmed by that verse which indicated even Noah(pbuh) has also been given the “Deen”(system).


Also the definite article "AL" before the word “Islam” indicates that its a "noun". That means AL-ISLAM is a title given or actual name. There is nothing strange that God has given it a name as I have explained its possibly because the ending of Scripture and prophethood. But it does seem like previous communities understood there was a “DEEN” (system) that was to God. There could of been possibly an equivalent terminology in their respective languages. God knows best

Or do you mean you are not sure? Then Qoran clearly told us Islam was named before by Abraham:" Huwa Sammakum Al Muslimeen..."

There is no where in that verse 22:78 that tells us "Islam" was the name given to us by Abraham. As you can see it was the name “Muslimeen” and not “Islam” that was given. As mentioned before Islam and Muslim cannot always be used to mean the same thing. 

Also there is support to suggest that it was God and not Abraham who named those with faith “Muslimeen” as the pronoun “Huwa” can strongly be argued to be referring to God. Given the fact that even Noah was commanded to be from among the “Muslimeen” (10:72) who predates Abraham(6:84).

Whether the “Huwa” is a reference to God or to Abraham(God knows best), the importance of the verse seems to state that, those with faith to the One True God were to be distinguished in the world from others and were termed “Muslimeen”. Either way the term “DEEN”(system) or “AL-ISLAM”  is not included in this verse which therefor cannot be used as evidence that the term "Islam" was used before the Quran or not.

You said

“Also you did not deal with the contradiction mentioned in my last post.”

1- GOD makes it clear in Qoran that whoever accept ANY OTHER DEEN apart from ISLAm , will be with the losers.
2- Yet iinforms us as follows:
Surely, those who believe, those who are Jewish, the converts, and the Christians; any of them who (1) believe in God and (2) believe in the Last Day, and (3) lead a righteous life, have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.

There is no contraction here brother, just understand part one of your comment which relates to verse 3:85 on a governmental basis.

Does God not ask people to believe in His revelations and to submit to His authority(To implement His commands and not cut off what He has ordained)? Does not verses 5:44-47 instruct those who are Jews to Judge by the Torah and those who received the Gospel to judge by the Gospel and if they don’t they are either disbelievers, rebellious, or wrong doers?


5:44(part) Whoso does not judge by that which God has revealed; such are the disbelievers(Kafiroon)

Its confirmed again in 5:45.

God also commands those who were given the Injeel to judge by what is in it 5:47

5:47(part)  Whoso does not judge by that which God has revealed; such are the rebellious (fasiqoon)

So when those in power have rejected the system of God after the matters of the religion/system(ISLAM) is made clear to them and when there is absolutely no reason to deny it, they would be deemed as losers. This would be akin to disbelieving in God’s message. You will notice also how God does exchange power and authority in the land to trial others. It appears to be an on-going process(God knows best).


However those who are faithful(Muslims), those who believe (in the Quranic message), those who are Jews and Christians who believe in One God, and do righteous works and believe in the Last Day, they shall have no fear nor shall they grieve. These are all Muslims.

I do find that there is certain words in the Quran that there is times they maybe used interchangeably but there is times where they have a definite explicit meaning.

At the end God knows best and may the Almighty Lord guide us to the path that is straight Insha’Allah.

Insha'Allah I will keep this topic in mind, and what you have commented and if I find there is evidence throughout the Quran as to interchangeably defining the terms Muslim and Islam together and they are one and the same, then I would have to Insha'Allah change my views.

Asalamu 3alykum

[good logic]

Thank you brother Hamzeh for the conversation.
Learning is ongoing for all of us.
May the Lord guide us and keep us on His straight path.
GOD bless you.
Peace

[Hamzeh]

Your welcome and thank you as well

May God bless you too Insha'Allah

Salam

[ahmad]

Dear Brother Hamza,
Hope you are well

Just wanted to point out that you can use http://tanzil.net to search by word root. In order to speed up your research.
Here is the link with the search results of the root of muslim / islam - (S-L-M)
http://tanzil.net/#search/root/سلم
(Part of the link is not working so you have to copy manually.)

Hope this helps.

It has been a while, brother Good logic  . I hope you are doing well with the grace of God .

Best Regards,
Ahmad.

[good logic]

Thank you brother ahmad.
May the Lord keep you and your nearest and all the brothers and sisters safe and well.
I am happy to come back to this site every now and then, I keep in touch reading here but I do not often take part.
 Humans may change in a better way after this devastating and indiscriminate virus has engulfed the whole world.
We seek GOD s protection and hope that justice and compassion will replace injustice and oppression for all our fellow humans in the future.
GOD bless you.
"Kul Lan Yusibana Illa Ma Kataba Allah Lana, Huwa Mawlana Wa Ala Allah Fa Yatawakkali Al Muminoon."
Peace.

[Hamzeh]

Assalamu 3alykum brother Ahmad

Thank you for sharing the website, that was kind of you. Insha'Allah I will use it for further research

May God bless you all

Salam