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Offline optimist

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Re: On Surah Al-Tahrim Verse 3
« Reply #15 on: August 20, 2012, 10:19:23 AM »
Just to continue from my previous post, in addition to verse 2:118, kindly refer to the following verse;

He [alone] knows that which is beyond the reach of a created being's perception, and to none does He disclose aught of the mysteries of His Own unfathomable knowledge unless it be to an apostle whom He has been pleased to elect [therefor] (72:27) - Mohammed Asad

He (alone) knows the Unseen, nor does He make any one acquainted with His Mysteries,-"Except a messenger whom He has chosen (72:27) – Yousuf Ali

He is the Knower of the unseen; and He reveals not His secrets to anyone, Except to a Messenger of His whom He chooses. (72:27) – Sher Ali

Only He knows the future; and He does not divulge His secrets to anyone else; (except that) Through Wahi, He tells the person who is chosen as His Rasool, only what He wants (to tell).(72:27) - Parwez

I would like your comments also for the above verse.

Kind regards

Abdul Samad
The meaning which was lost in all our divisions will not be understood until our perceptions become untainted -  Allama Iqbal

Offline optimist

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Re: On Surah Al-Tahrim Verse 3
« Reply #16 on: August 20, 2012, 12:21:33 PM »
I feel your use of 5:111 to support your understanding of 20:38 is wholly misplaced. The Quran does not say that the disciples were inspired 'through' Prophet Jesus. I find that you are interpolating comments into the Arabic which do not exist
Salam,

While  I await comments for my earlier post, one more point.  Sorry my comments are given in three seperate posts.

Suppose if we say, “what has been revealed unto those who believe” آمِنُوا بِالَّذِي أُنْزِلَ عَلَى الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا  in verse 3:72 means what has been revealed to the believers through prophet muhammed in Quran, will we be interpolating comments into the Arabic which do not exist?  Quran does not say here 'through' Prophet Muhammed.

Kind regards,

Optimist
The meaning which was lost in all our divisions will not be understood until our perceptions become untainted -  Allama Iqbal

Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: On Surah Al-Tahrim Verse 3
« Reply #17 on: August 20, 2012, 01:31:39 PM »
Peace Optimist,

Sadly, but with all due respect, you have once again not provided coherent, unequivocal proof of your position. I sadly find your posts incoherent and do nothing but to obfuscate the request for simple evidence.

Let me humbly repeat, verse 2:118 does not patently disprove that God does not speak to man directly. All it proves is that ignorant folks always have asked for God to speak to them (How is not defined). Verse 42:51 clearly elaborates how God interacts with potentially any human (li-basharin) and one of the methods is via wahi (inspiration - of all kinds).  You are restricting this ‘wahi’ to prophetic wahi which is not warranted by the text and then imposing this interpolation on to your understanding of verse 2:118.

So I ask you the first question (of two) once again:

(1) Please can you provide clear unequivocal evidence that God does not inspire His servants directly in whatever way if He so wishes without any interpolations.

Please brother, a simple straight forward answer will suffice.

If you cannot provide coherent proof from the Quran, then I kindly request that you revisit the theology that your understanding of the Quran is based on and be humble enough to at least consider that your understanding 'may' be wrong and without warrant.

Regards,
Joseph.
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell

Offline optimist

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Re: On Surah Al-Tahrim Verse 3
« Reply #18 on: August 20, 2012, 06:07:48 PM »
Let me humbly repeat, verse 2:118 does not patently disprove that God does not speak to man directly. All it proves is that ignorant folks always have asked for God to speak to them (How is not defined). Verse 42:51 clearly elaborates how God interacts with potentially any human (li-basharin) and one of the methods is via wahi (inspiration - of all kinds).  You are restricting this ‘wahi’ to prophetic wahi which is not warranted by the text and then imposing this interpolation on to your understanding of verse 2:118.

Peace brother Joseph,

I did not restrict li-basharin  in 42:51 to refer to wahi received by prophets only.   Such an assumption is unwarranted.  This was what I said.   Bashar includes both oridinay people and prophets (prophets are also human beings like us).   The first two modes of communication mentioned in the verse refer to Allah's speech to prophets (being basher) and the third one mentioned  in the verse refers to Allah's speech to ordinary people.   It need not necessarily mean all the modes of communication  should be applicable for all types of bashar at same time since the language used is "or",  and therefore, even if one is applicable to ordinary people the verse will not be contradicted (for example, we know our prophet did not receive a communication like a voice being heard from behind a curtain as happened in the case of prophet Moses)

Let me quote 42:51 again, the highligted in blue refers to communication to prophets and the highlighted in red refers to communication to oridinary people.

It is not fitting for a man that Allah should speak    يُكَلِّمَهُ اللَّهُ to him except by inspiration, or from behind a veil, or by the sending of a messenger to reveal, with Allah's permission, what Allah wills: for He is Most High, Most Wise.(yousuf Ali) (42:51)

Here comes the relevance of 2:118, the complaint of ignorant people as to “why God does not speak يُكَلِّمُنَا اللَّهُ to them?”.   If Allah had used to speak to ordinary bashar directly without a messenger sending to them as you claim based on 42:51,  it would not have been mentioned about such people as completely ignorant people following the footsteps of ingnorant people of the past.  Your comment that this verse “does not patently disprove that God does not speak to man directly” goes against the verbal meaning of the verse.  You are trying to interpolate the verse to conform to your view.   To say that it is possible for ordinary people to receive wahi and it is possible Allah speaking to them like a voice heard from behind a curtain, etc is a dangerous interpolation which is a major diversion and corruption in Islam all along.  You are indirectly (without intention) promoting such corruption.

Quote
So I ask you the first question (of two) once again:

(1) Please can you provide clear unequivocal evidence that God does not inspire His servants directly in whatever way if He so wishes without any interpolations.
Please brother, a simple straight forward answer will suffice.

The following verse is the unequivocal proof for God does not inspire ordinary people directly (except through a messenger); 

"He [alone] knows that which is beyond the reach of a created being's perception, and to none does He disclose aught of the mysteries of His Own unfathomable knowledge unless it be to an apostle whom He has been pleased to elect [therefor]" (72:27) - Mohammed Asad

Kind regards

Optimist
The meaning which was lost in all our divisions will not be understood until our perceptions become untainted -  Allama Iqbal

Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: On Surah Al-Tahrim Verse 3
« Reply #19 on: August 20, 2012, 09:10:25 PM »
Peace Optimist,

If you accept by your own admission that "Bashar includes both oridinay people and prophets (prophets are also human beings like us)", then why do you deny that wahi (different types) can potentially come to any human directly as God wills as clearly stated by the verse 42:51?

Prophetic wahi is only one type of 'wahi'. There are other suggestions, inclinations etc that can be a form of ‘wahi’ from God for example, the mother of Prophet Moses who received 'awha' to put her baby into the river and not to fear (28:7).

Your use of 42:51 to make your case is completely unwarranted. Even if 42:51 is accepted to necessitate the requirement of a 'messenger', this still does not disprove that on the basis of 42:51, God cannot inspire humans in many different ways, of which 'prophetic revelation' is one part.

Verse 72:27 only speaks of 'Prophetic wahi'. This does not provide any evidence for the negation of other types of wahi such as the one received by Prophet Moses's mother which is encompassed in 42:51.

So once again I ask you the same two questions due to lack of proof from you to support your position.

(1) Please can you provide clear unequivocal evidence that God does not inspire His servants directly in whatever way if He so wishes without any interpolations.

(2) Please provide evidence from the Quran that a messenger was sent to the mother of Prophet Moses to put the baby in the river. (20:38)


Regards,
Joseph.

'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell

Offline optimist

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Re: On Surah Al-Tahrim Verse 3
« Reply #20 on: August 21, 2012, 05:38:38 AM »
Salamun Alaikum brother Joseph Islam,

I will make a final comment later, since I feel like our discussion is going in a circle.....Insha Allah.

Well, I came across the following hadith.  It is true that hadiths can not be a source of guidance due to human effort in the collection and basically not sanctioned by Allah and his messenger.  But the collection of hadith contains many truths no one can deny.  Here is one hadith attributed to Ali (r);

Bukhari Volume 4, Book 52, Number 283:

Narrated Abu Juhaifa:  I asked Ali, "Do you have the knowledge of any Divine Inspiration besides what is in Allah's Book?"  'Ali replied, "No, by Him Who splits the grain of corn and creates the soul. I don't think we have such knowledge, but we have the ability of understanding which Allah may endow a person with, so that he may understand the Qur'an, and we have what is written in this paper as well." I asked, "What is written in this paper?" He replied, "(The regulations of) blood-money, the freeing of captives, and the judgment that no Muslim should be killed for killing an infidel."

http://www.muslimaccess.com/sunnah/hadeeth/bukhari/052.html

Any thoughts?

With immense respect to you always.

Optimist
The meaning which was lost in all our divisions will not be understood until our perceptions become untainted -  Allama Iqbal

Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: On Surah Al-Tahrim Verse 3
« Reply #21 on: August 21, 2012, 01:18:15 PM »
Peace Optimist,

With respect, the sheer desperation of your position and your inability to provide unequivocal proof from the Quran for your position is clearly evidenced by the fact that you have had to use a 'BUKHARI HADITH' to make your case supporting it with your equally desperate comment:


But the collection of hadith contains many truths no one can deny.  Here is one hadith attributed to Ali (r);


I have nothing more to add on this topic with you which readers can assess for themselves. I once again humbly and sincerely request that you revisit the precepts on which your theology is based.

Please accept this post as my final say on this topic.

With utmost respect,
Joseph
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell