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Offline HOPE

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5:55
« on: October 14, 2012, 10:09:14 PM »
 Salaam br. Joseph and all,

As you know, the Shia reference verse 5:55 as an allusion to Ali's giving of a ring in ruku.  Translations reflect the sectarian views:

1.  those who believe, establishing prayer and paying charity even while bowing down. or
2.  those who believe, establish prayer, pay zakah, and they bow down humbly

Justification for option one is there is no such rule that the muslim should give zakat while bowing down in prayer.

Is this a case of misplaced punctuation?
"Hope is like a bird that senses the dawn and carefully starts to sing while it is still dark"

Offline Wakas

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Re: 5:55
« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2012, 11:02:59 AM »
w/salaam,

Background: http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=5&verse=55#(5:55:1)

The Arabic literally says "and they are those who RK3"

RK3 can mean bow, incline, (are)humble.

Offline HOPE

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Re: 5:55
« Reply #2 on: October 15, 2012, 05:01:54 PM »
Salaam Wakas,

Thanks for your input but there is a difference between (5:55:7)
alladhīna
and those who  and
(5:55:12)
wahum
and they

what is a circumstantial particle?
"Hope is like a bird that senses the dawn and carefully starts to sing while it is still dark"

Offline Wakas

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Re: 5:55
« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2012, 07:02:24 PM »
w/salaam,

Ahh, I never noticed that. I would assume it is determined by what is said in the verse, however I am not sure how accurate the corpus tagging is with regard to that. There are many other examples according to corpus, e.g.

http://corpus.quran.com/wordmorphology.jsp?location=(2:8:9)

http://corpus.quran.com/wordmorphology.jsp?location=(8:5:7)

http://corpus.quran.com/wordmorphology.jsp?location=(6:161:13)

http://corpus.quran.com/wordmorphology.jsp?location=(3:65:7)

http://corpus.quran.com/wordmorphology.jsp?location=(9:56:5)

etc etc.

Corpus seems to suggest "while". I have no problem with "while" or simply "and". It would be interesting to see if there was a pattern in the usage, but this would likely involve studying hundreds of occurrences.

Offline HOPE

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Re: 5:55
« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2012, 07:35:30 PM »
Salaam,

Quote
Corpus seems to suggest "while". I have no problem with "while" or simply "and"

This was my question.  And supports Sunni view While supports Shia view.

I wanted to know which meaning the verse is saying.
"Hope is like a bird that senses the dawn and carefully starts to sing while it is still dark"

Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: 5:55
« Reply #5 on: October 16, 2012, 10:22:09 PM »
Dear Hope,

Peace to you.

The first point to note is that the narrative in question is in a plural context. Verse 5.55 is not about one individual. Therefore, from a strictly linguistic perspective, any argument which asserts this revelation in honour of 'a' particular personality such as Imam Ali is wholly unwarranted.

To take a theological narrative sourced exclusively from Islamic secondary sources as in this case the Shi'a theologians do, and projecting it onto an isolated verse for support is Quranically not a cogent argument. It is in my humble opinion, wholly unwarranted.

As far as reading the Arabic, I would read it no different to as I would read the statement 'wa-hum' (and they) in verse 2:25 to indicate simply those people who are the subject of the verse and captured by the circumstances of the events of the verse.

The ammunition for debate exists solely in secondary sources and not in the Quranic text. The vulnerability of the Sunni theologians is oft exposed by the Shi'a who often make use of Sunni sources to support their theological assertions. These debates have enraged for over a millennia often from these very sources.

From a Quranic perspective, the discussion is mute.

I hope this helps, God willing.
Joseph.
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell

Offline HOPE

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Re: 5:55
« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2012, 11:56:00 PM »
Peace brother Joseph,

Thank you for your explanation.  I agree with you, yet as prophet Ibrahim would say, "in order to make tranquil my heart", why would 'wa-hum' be understood as while they, why would the Corpus I use says "conditional prep"?  Is it because of Shia bias?
"Hope is like a bird that senses the dawn and carefully starts to sing while it is still dark"

Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: 5:55
« Reply #7 on: October 17, 2012, 01:44:59 AM »
Dear Hope,

Peace

Not necessarily Shi'a bias.

Only the interpretation that links 'wa'hum' (plural) to a particular personality (Hazrat Ali) and to the story of a ring being passed to a beggar during ruku (bowing), is certainly due to Shi'a bias and is based on Islamic secondary sources exclusively.

Linguistically, the 'wa' can be used in this way to express the conditions or circumstances under which a particular action takes place ('haal' clause). Hence you may note the reference to a prefixed conditional / circumstantial preposition when describing the 'wa'. The 'wa' is followed by a pronoun and a clause or narrative which describes the circumstances.

So for example, if I say in Arabic 'wa'fooji'a wa huwa ya-qta'ul-hatab'a', I would mean 'He was surprised 'while' he was cutting wood'. The conditional / circumstantial 'wa' (while) would provide the prefix to the circumstances (cutting of the wood), in which a particular action (being surprised) takes place.

So in the case of 5:55, it can be argued that the conditions / circumstances in which believers establish salaat and give zakat (actions) occur ‘while’ believers are in a state of 'ruki'un'.  Ruk'iun as a primary connotation carries the meaning of 'bowing' but more appropriately in this context, carries the nuance of 'humility'.

However, there is a huge leap of faith from this possible linguistic perspective to linking it to a narrative concerning Hazrat Ali, which is clearly refuted by the use of a plural context which I have already respectfully shared in my post above.

I hope that helps, God willing
Joseph.
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell

Offline HOPE

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Re: 5:55
« Reply #8 on: October 17, 2012, 03:16:14 AM »
Peace brother Joseph,

Thank you for a very informative reply and putting my heart at ease.
"Hope is like a bird that senses the dawn and carefully starts to sing while it is still dark"