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Offline Mubashir

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To defend the Hadith, attack the Qur'an !
« on: October 30, 2012, 06:58:41 AM »
On Facebook, a Bukari hadith has been quoted where the blessed Messenger is supposed to have said that those who eat Aujora Dates, can stay safe from poison and magical spells.

When someone challenged Ahl e Hadith to prove this by eating these dates and then consuming rat poison, a response came that said (quoting 8:65):

"First Let 20 Quranists (called Parwezis) challenge 200 Kuffars to a fight and prove that they can beat them. If they beat them, they have a point".

So, instead of admitting that the Hadith could have been misreported, they cleverly turn around and indirectly attack the Quran. What a a way to go!!

Offline chadiga

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Re: To defend the Hadith, attack the Qur'an !
« Reply #1 on: October 31, 2012, 01:39:52 AM »
Salam Mubashir

psychologically completely clear: someone who can not  help himself with logic and with the innermost knows that he has no arguments, goes over to the (headless) attack .
Usually this ends with accusations or slander i.e. here accusation that the Quran must be wrong... :o
Salam

Offline HOPE

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Re: To defend the Hadith, attack the Qur'an !
« Reply #2 on: October 31, 2012, 01:58:03 AM »
Peace,

Maybe it is because the salvation the Hadith offers is much easier to attain than the Quranic way like if you can count to 1000- recite a magical formula than you reserve a place in the Paradise.  It is a hard bargain to overlook.  Maybe the hearts are sealed; they cannot see.  Only God knows.  All we can do is put it on a plate and offer, the rest is up to them.
"Hope is like a bird that senses the dawn and carefully starts to sing while it is still dark"

Offline Mubashir

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Re: To defend the Hadith, attack the Qur'an !
« Reply #3 on: October 31, 2012, 02:01:22 AM »
Now someone knowing Arabic says that the word "sim" used in the Arabic text of the Hadith does not mean "Poison" but toxins that the body produces and the word Sahar can also mean an external element potentially harmful for the body.

In other words, the Urdu translation of the Hadith was way off!!

Offline Sardar Miyan

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Re: To defend the Hadith, attack the Qur'an !
« Reply #4 on: October 31, 2012, 11:35:57 AM »
Bro Mubashir
When we are not believing or following Hadith why should we discuss the substance?.When one is not going to visit a particular town why should he ask the direction of that town?
May entire creation be filled with Peace & Joy & Love & Light

Offline chadiga

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Re: To defend the Hadith, attack the Qur'an !
« Reply #5 on: October 31, 2012, 05:05:55 PM »
Salam Sardar
I would say, even in the Hadith there are truths of wisdom, as in other books too. Brother Mubashir has not even discussed, but passed an interesting information. I mean, we should be careful not to fall into the same trap as others: stubbornly refuse everything, just because it is attributed to Prophet Muhammad.
We recognize maybe wisdom of famous personalities, thinkers of history, why not also of Arab history?
My humble opinion :)
Salam

Offline Saba

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Re: To defend the Hadith, attack the Qur'an !
« Reply #6 on: October 31, 2012, 08:16:23 PM »
Salaam Chadiga,

How can we decide what is truth and what is not? What is wisdom, what is not? Isn't this subjective? Isn't this a slippery slope? Maybe some will argue that there is wisdom in the story of Karbala. But who will decide whether the facts are true and whether they are  even  important? Saba

Offline chadiga

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Re: To defend the Hadith, attack the Qur'an !
« Reply #7 on: November 02, 2012, 01:37:54 AM »
Salam Saba
Salaam Chadiga,

How can we decide what is truth and what is not? What is wisdom, what is not? Isn't this subjective? Isn't this a slippery slope? Maybe some will argue that there is wisdom in the story of Karbala. But who will decide whether the facts are true and whether they are  even  important? Saba
yes, i'm agree it is subjective. The last source must always be the Quran. But we read the bible and know, that there are mistakes , we read any book and know it is human-made --as the Ahadith also, but it not mean that we don't must read now any book again, or?? ;)

Offline Saba

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Re: To defend the Hadith, attack the Qur'an !
« Reply #8 on: November 02, 2012, 08:07:38 AM »
Salaam Chadiga

Good point. However, from what I understand .... the Quran protects and guards over the bible and confirms certain parts of it and goes over others.


Quote
005:015
"O People of the Book, surely there has come to you our Messenger, making clear to you much of what you used to conceal (Arabic: tukh'funa) of the scripture and overlooking / forgiving much (Arabic: wa-ya'fu an kathiran). Surely has come to you from God a light and a clear book"
 
The Arabic word 'tukh'funa' comes from the root KHA-FA-YA which carries the meaning of what is unapparent / has become imperceptible / has become dim to the sight / or suppressed, or obscured to the mind. It also carries the meaning of something which has become 'concealed'.
 
Therefore, the Quran within context of its Arabic usage clearly recognised that certain aspects of the previous scriptures had become gradually concealed and deemed it fit to expound on some of them. It was also not the intention of the Quran to deal with each and every narrative of the Bible hence the term 'wa-yafu an kathiran' (forgive, pardon, pass over, relinquish or remit a whole or part or indeed pardon much).

and also ...

Quote

059:023
“He is God, than whom there is no other God, the Sovereign Lord, the Holy One, Peace, the Keeper of Faith, the Guardian/Determining what is true and false (Arabic: l-muhayminu), the Majestic, the Compeller, the Superb. Glorified be God from all that they ascribe as partner (to Him)”
 
 
ROOT WORD - Ha-Ya-Miim-Nun = to watch over, oversee, expand the wings (hen over their chickens), control. To be witness to, offer security and peace, protect and determine what is true.
 
Muhayminan - guardian to watch and determine what is true and what is false witness, afforder of security and peace, controller and superintendent of all the affairs, protector.
 
Other Derivatives: Haymana vb: 5:48, 59:23

Much is inferred by this verse not only that the Quran protects the message of the previous scriptures, but also acts as a discerner of its truth. Both the understanding of guardianship and as one that discerns the truth can equally be applicable to God, as used in 59:23.

http://quransmessage.com/articles/between%20hands%20or%20before%20it%20FM3.htm

I am in much agreement with this view. So we have this sort of protection or guard over the bible we can understand the bible better. However with hadith etc etc that came after it, there is no protection - there is no later quran tha can provide a guard over the hadith and tell us what is right and wrong. So I am not sure I can compare the bible with other sources.

I hope you see what I mean ...... :) 8)  Saba

Offline Saba

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Re: To defend the Hadith, attack the Qur'an !
« Reply #9 on: November 02, 2012, 08:08:14 AM »
Salaam Chadiga

Good point. However, from what I understand .... the Quran protects and guards over the bible and confirms certain parts of it and goes over others.


Quote
005:015
"O People of the Book, surely there has come to you our Messenger, making clear to you much of what you used to conceal (Arabic: tukh'funa) of the scripture and overlooking / forgiving much (Arabic: wa-ya'fu an kathiran). Surely has come to you from God a light and a clear book"
 
The Arabic word 'tukh'funa' comes from the root KHA-FA-YA which carries the meaning of what is unapparent / has become imperceptible / has become dim to the sight / or suppressed, or obscured to the mind. It also carries the meaning of something which has become 'concealed'.
 
Therefore, the Quran within context of its Arabic usage clearly recognised that certain aspects of the previous scriptures had become gradually concealed and deemed it fit to expound on some of them. It was also not the intention of the Quran to deal with each and every narrative of the Bible hence the term 'wa-yafu an kathiran' (forgive, pardon, pass over, relinquish or remit a whole or part or indeed pardon much).

and also ...

Quote

059:023
“He is God, than whom there is no other God, the Sovereign Lord, the Holy One, Peace, the Keeper of Faith, the Guardian/Determining what is true and false (Arabic: l-muhayminu), the Majestic, the Compeller, the Superb. Glorified be God from all that they ascribe as partner (to Him)”
 
 
ROOT WORD - Ha-Ya-Miim-Nun = to watch over, oversee, expand the wings (hen over their chickens), control. To be witness to, offer security and peace, protect and determine what is true.
 
Muhayminan - guardian to watch and determine what is true and what is false witness, afforder of security and peace, controller and superintendent of all the affairs, protector.
 
Other Derivatives: Haymana vb: 5:48, 59:23

Much is inferred by this verse not only that the Quran protects the message of the previous scriptures, but also acts as a discerner of its truth. Both the understanding of guardianship and as one that discerns the truth can equally be applicable to God, as used in 59:23.

http://quransmessage.com/articles/between%20hands%20or%20before%20it%20FM3.htm

I am in much agreement with this view. So we have this sort of protection or guard over the bible we can understand the bible better through the criterion of the quran. However with hadith etc etc that came after it, there is no protection - there is no later quran that can provide a guard over the hadith and tell us what is right and wrong. So I am not sure I can compare the bible with other sources.

I hope you see what I mean ...... :) 8)  Saba

Offline chadiga

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Re: To defend the Hadith, attack the Qur'an !
« Reply #10 on: November 02, 2012, 07:06:02 PM »
Salam Saba
Quote
I hope you see what I mean ......    Saba

hmm yes i see it. :) thank you, because the first time i see it ;D
Your point is good.
 that would divide the hierarchy so:
First- Quran
Second- Bible (old revelations from God (Torah Injeel, Psalms)
Third- second literature about those revelations (Talmud, hadith)
5th- writings about other Religions
4th- no religious writings

So Quran directly supercedes only [/b the Torah, Injeel, Psalms

Salam :)

Offline Bassam Zawadi

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Re: To defend the Hadith, attack the Qur'an !
« Reply #11 on: April 01, 2013, 07:43:41 PM »
I believe we need to see how traditional Muslims understood the hadith of the ajwa dates. They don't believe that the power of protection is in the dates themselves, but rather it's a means taken, while the ultimate power is in Allah.

It's kind of like Allah saying in the Qur'an "Make dua to Me and I shall respond". Could we then take this verse and challenge people to ask Allah for a Ferrari and expect it to then turn up miraculously in our garage? No, I don't think so.

I think we need to sometimes look at the spirit of things in their proper context and not at the letter of things in isolation of their context.

Offline Sardar Miyan

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Re: To defend the Hadith, attack the Qur'an !
« Reply #12 on: April 02, 2013, 10:12:07 AM »
Allah will accept Dua after all the possible remedies are take by a person to redress as a last resort.
May entire creation be filled with Peace & Joy & Love & Light

Offline islamist

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Re: To defend the Hadith, attack the Qur'an !
« Reply #13 on: April 02, 2013, 08:06:19 PM »
I believe we need to see how traditional Muslims understood the hadith of the ajwa dates. They don't believe that the power of protection is in the dates themselves, but rather it's a means taken, while the ultimate power is in Allah.

It's kind of like Allah saying in the Qur'an "Make dua to Me and I shall respond". Could we then take this verse and challenge people to ask Allah for a Ferrari and expect it to then turn up miraculously in our garage? No, I don't think so.

I think we need to sometimes look at the spirit of things in their proper context and not at the letter of things in isolation of their context.

ya if we look at the spirit of things may be ajwa dates may cure the diseases of many. I used to give vitamin tablets to my grandmother whenever she complains about one thing or other and she used to feel completely cured most of the times!

Offline Duster

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Re: To defend the Hadith, attack the Qur'an !
« Reply #14 on: April 02, 2013, 09:31:05 PM »
I believe we need to see how traditional Muslims understood the hadith of the ajwa dates. They don't believe that the power of protection is in the dates themselves, but rather it's a means taken, while the ultimate power is in Allah.

It's kind of like Allah saying in the Qur'an "Make dua to Me and I shall respond". Could we then take this verse and challenge people to ask Allah for a Ferrari and expect it to then turn up miraculously in our garage? No, I don't think so.

I think we need to sometimes look at the spirit of things in their proper context and not at the letter of things in isolation of their context.

ya if we look at the spirit of things may be ajwa dates may cure the diseases of many. I used to give vitamin tablets to my grandmother whenever she complains about one thing or other and she used to feel completely cured most of the times!


almost like a placebo effect?  Shalom / Peace