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Offline islamist

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Re: Cause thee to forget??
« Reply #15 on: April 01, 2013, 11:31:10 PM »
Salaam Islamist

You want me to stay on the topic while it is you who is deliberately not responding to a simple question that you have been asked?

Anyone reading this thread will clearly see that it is you that has not responded to my question and are you are deliberately evading and skirting it. This is a tactic I am not going to accept and I find it very rude that you are answering a question with a question.

Salaam Saba,

With all respect towards you, without being rude, let me first tell you that you are not going to respond to my last post due to reason you and me (at the least) aware.  And you want now to divert the discussion to another topic.  It is ok.  Let us see.

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Please read the thread again and see that I asked the question first. See reply #8

Now I ask once again for the third time........ please do not skirt the issue and answer my question first -

Tell me where the Qur'an speaks about the law of "Mashiyat (will power)"? Actually, please can you tell me where the word 'mashiyat' is used in the Quran and defined.

Mashiyat  means God’s will.  The root word is "Shaa—a" and "Ya—shaa—u" meaning to intend or to will.   It is the root words of Mashiyat which are used in the Quran at number of places.  Let me explain to you in brief the point I wanted to convey when I used "Law of Mashiyat".  This is a vast subject and I know you purposefully wanted to divert the topic.

Well, generally, When we refer to God’s will (Mashiyat) we think that Allah acts without any law or rule.  And many people think that Allah acts like a dictator.  He punishes whomever He wishes, He guides whomever He wishes,  He makes people rich and poor whimsically, etc. Such concepts are contrary to the teachings of the Quran.  God’s Will does not mean it is exercised without any law or rule. 

Allah’s Will in the World of Nature:-

We observe Allah’s will (مشيئة) in the physical universe around us.   Everything in the universe follows a certain law or rule.  It means God has subjected everything to certain laws.  This is what it says in 33:39 as وَكَانَ أَمْرُ اللَّهِ قَدَرًا مَقْدُورًا   “God's will is always destiny absolute”.  Here God’s mashiyat or Will would mean the laws that are being followed in the entire universe.  This phase of God’s Will can be understood by us through knowledge and experience which is the basis of science. That is why these laws are called (بقدر معلوم) in (15:21) and (15:24) i.e., laws which can be discovered.  Adam is said to have been given ‘the knowledge of names’. This is nothing but the knowledge of the universe.

Allah’s Will and Human Beings:-

Let me state only some brief points.

Wherever in the Quran has been said “ma yashaa’ i.e. ‘As God wills’, it will have to be seen with reference to the context as to which phase of His Will is being talked about. To take the same meaning everywhere would create confusion due to which one may wrongly believe that the Quran is contradictory!  For instance, Quran says at one place, يَهْدِي مَنْ يَشَاءُ إِلَىٰ صِرَاطٍ مُسْتَقِيمٍ yahdi man yashahu ilaa silathin mustaqueen (2:142).  It clearly means that God gives guidance to whosoever so wishes.  But if it is taken to mean whoever God wishes (as is generally done) then it would mean that guidance from God is received by whoever He wants.  In 5:16 Allah states, ‘Allah guideth all who seek His good pleasure to ways of peace and safety, and leadeth them out of darkness, by His will, unto the light,- guideth them to a path that is straight’.  It means Allah grants guidance through this Qur’an to anybody who wants to follows His laws: the thing is very clear: that the guidance will come from God no doubt, but the initiative will have to be man’s,  i.e, he must want it. This is also what it says in 6:36, “Those who listen (in truth), be sure, will accept”.  If man follows God’s laws then he will get guidance to the right path but if he rejects them or goes against them then he will definitely meet destruction.  falamma zaaghu azaaghallahu qulubahum: 61:5 when they adopted the crooked ways (wrong ways) then their hearts were also turned.   In other words, Allah has given man the power to obey or disobey the laws that have been created for his life, verse 18:29 states, “And say, 'It is the truth from your Lord; wherefore let him who will, believe, and let him, who will, disbelieve”.

I will list down some of the verses from Quran and you may note how Allah’s will could be termed as as His Laws.

وَلَوْ شَاءَ اللَّهُ لَجَعَلَكُمْ أُمَّةً وَاحِدَةً
And if God had enforced His will, He would surely have made you all one people (16:93). The point is emphasized in this verse is that it is not Allah's Will to make all one Ummat.  This is repeated at other places also.  It is an unchangeable decision (Law) of Allah.

وَقَالُوا لَوْلَا نُزِّلَ عَلَيْهِ آيَةٌ مِنْ رَبِّهِ قُلْ إِنَّ اللَّهَ قَادِرٌ عَلَىٰ أَنْ يُنَزِّلَ آيَةً وَلَٰكِنَّ أَكْثَرَهُمْ لَا يَعْلَمُونَ 

And they say, 'Why has not a Sign been sent down to him from his Lord?' Say, 'Surely God has the power to send down a Sign, but most of them do not know(6:37). The verse confirms the point that Allah has the power to send down sign, but it is not his Plan (Law) to send Signs.  In other words, no matter what happens there shall be no issue of sending Signs. The comment "most of them do not know" may be noted.

ْ كَانَ كَبُرَ عَلَيْكَ إِعْرَاضُهُمْ فَإِنِ اسْتَطَعْتَ أَنْ تَبْتَغِيَ نَفَقًا فِي الْأَرْضِ أَوْ سُلَّمًا فِي السَّمَاءِ فَتَأْتِيَهُمْ بِآيَةٍ وَلَوْ شَاءَ اللَّهُ لَجَمَعَهُمْ عَلَى الْهُدَىٰ فَلَا تَكُونَنَّ مِنَ الْجَاهِلِينَ

“And if their turning away is hard on thee, then, if thou art able to seek a passage into the earth or a ladder unto heaven and bring them a Sign, thou canst do so. And had God enforced His will, He could surely have brought them all together to the guidance. So be thou not of those who lack knowledge” (6:35).    Here also notice the permanency of Allah’s Will.   It is not Allah's will to bring them all the people to the guidance by force.

We normally wonder why Allah does not interfere where there is bloodshed in the world and innocent people are killed (which was in fact what the Angels feared).  (As a reply to this) it is mentioned in chapter 2 that, Allah, through His Messengers, sent guidance to mankind advising them against bloodshed. People would resume mutual killings and the Messengers were dead. “If Allah had willed it so, they would not have killed…….. (2:253). Against permanacy of Allah's Will is mentioned.

وَلَوْ أَنَّنَا نَزَّلْنَا إِلَيْهِمُ الْمَلَائِكَةَ وَكَلَّمَهُمُ الْمَوْتَىٰ وَحَشَرْنَا عَلَيْهِمْ كُلَّ شَيْءٍ قُبُلًا مَا كَانُوا لِيُؤْمِنُوا إِلَّا أَنْ يَشَاءَ اللَّهُ وَلَٰكِنَّ أَكْثَرَهُمْ يَجْهَلُونَ

And even if We send down unto them angels, and the dead speak to them, and We gather to them all things face to face, they would not believe, unless God enforced His Will.  But most of them are ignorant(6:111). Here it does not mean that some people with the character mentioned in the verse may believe if Allah Will so.  Here exception does not mean Allah may enforce His will sometimes and they may believe (the exception is not going to happen).  Here the issue of their belief is linked to Allah's will is to highlight that such people is not going to believe in any case.   

وَلَوْ شَاءَ اللَّهُ مَا أَشْرَكُوا

Yet if God had so willed, they would not have ascribed divinity to aught beside Him (6:107).
Here it does not mean that it was due to Allah’s whimsical decision and will that they had set up gods with Him.  Actually, it was the claim of the idolaters that it was the will of Allah that they worship other gods with Allah.  “And the idolaters say, 'If God had so willed, we should not have worshiped anything beside Him, neither we nor our fathers, nor should we have forbidden anything without command from Him.' So did those who opposed the truth before them. Are the Messengers responsible for anything except the plain delivery of the Message?”(16:35).   The Quran does not contradict each other.  Think.

Regards

Islamist

Offline Saba

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Re: Cause thee to forget??
« Reply #16 on: April 02, 2013, 07:12:57 AM »
Salaam Islamist

Thank you for explaining. At least I understand what this concept is that you are attempting to use.

I have never said that Allah's (swt) intervention is whimsical but you seem to predict Allah's (swt) will according to certain laws and you want to contain him in those laws. Allah (swt) cannot be contained and he can alter his laws if he wills. So when the mount came crashing down for prophet Moses or the seas parted for Prophet Moses what happened to your defined laws? Of course, he intervened!

Now, I am not diverting the topic. I asked you a question because of a statement you made and you have finally responded.  Thank you!

Now to your question. I actually gave you my answer in a detailed response, but I think you want a simple YES NO answer.

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Kindly  tell me what is the message of the 'simple and straightforward verse',  "I have no power over any harm or profit to myself except as Allah willeth"(10:49).   Does it imply that there is possibility that sometimes the prophet might have had the power to harm and to profit himself?   Here Allah says X will not happen unless Y happens.    Is there any possibility of Y happening here?  YES or NO


The answer is YES, and I clearly gave you the context why. Please reread my response #10.  Sometimes Allah (swt) allows cause and effect and sometimes he can intervene to stop it. I gave you clear verses. That is why I kept asking you about these laws you talk about as I think understanding of these laws don't allow to accept the clear verses of the Qur'an.

Salaam. Saba

Offline islamist

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Re: Cause thee to forget??
« Reply #17 on: April 02, 2013, 02:36:07 PM »
The answer is YES, and I clearly gave you the context why. Please reread my response #10.  Sometimes Allah (swt) allows cause and effect and sometimes he can intervene to stop it. I gave you clear verses. That is why I kept asking you about these laws you talk about as I think understanding of these laws don't allow to accept the clear verses of the Qur'an.

Assalamu alaikum.

Thank you for the response.   You have mentioned "Yes" without realizing the seriousness.   I know you are not realizing the implication of "Yes" here and therefore I take your comment as an innocent comment.  To suggest a view (unknowingly) that it is possible for prophet to independently benefit something for himself without the role of God and to believe that there is possibility for Allah to give such an authority to the prophet (even if it is one time) will make the Quranic teaching upside down.  I cannot even say here let us agree to disagree.

As a concluding remark,  focusing the topic under discussion, I kindly advise you not to go for direct Arabic meaning blindly wherever Allah mentions His Will without cross checking different verses (Allah instructs us always to ponder on the verses).  With the risk of repetition, let me tell you an example.  In verse 6:107 it states,  “If your God had so willed, they would not have worshipped other than Him”.   If we go for a superficial reading, based on direct word meanings we might conclude that the verse is stating that it is because of Allah's wish and choice that they are worshiping other Gods (which was the allegation of mushrikeen Allah strongly condemned and objected in 16:35 & 6:148).  This verse simply means that if it was the will of Allah he would have guided everyone to the right path, but Allah gave freedom of choice to man either to accept his message or to reject it.  That is why in the very same chapter, countering the false claim mushrikeen that it is because of Allah they worship other gods in 6:148, in the very next verse, Allah says; “Say: With Allah is the perfect proof and argument, had He so willed, He would indeed have guided you all.”  (6:149)

Take care awlays.

Assalamu alaikum

Islamist

Offline Saba

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Re: Cause thee to forget??
« Reply #18 on: April 03, 2013, 12:37:09 AM »
Thank you for the response.   You have mentioned "Yes" without realizing the seriousness.   I know you are not realizing the implication of "Yes" here and therefore I take your comment as an innocent comment. 

Very patronizing indeed!  :(

To suggest a view (unknowingly) that it is possible for prophet to independently benefit something for himself without the role of God and to believe that there is possibility for Allah to give such an authority to the prophet (even if it is one time) will make the Quranic teaching upside down.  I cannot even say here let us agree to disagree.

It seems you never read any of my threads properly as I never said that the Prophet could do anything without the role of God. I separated cause and effect and intervention in various ways possible, but it seems you just cannot see past your own thinking.


As a concluding remark,  focusing the topic under discussion, I kindly advise you not to go for direct Arabic meaning blindly wherever Allah mentions His Will without cross checking different verses (Allah instructs us always to ponder on the verses). 

Another patronizing remark.

I have nothing more to say to you on this topic Islamist.

As they say ......To be your way and me mine  Salaam. Saba