Torah Preservation

[Star]

Salam

There was an incident in the Quran in which the Jews were told to judge by the Torah, because the Torah contained "the plain word of God." Does this mean that the Torah was intact and uncorrupted at the time of Prophet Muhammad? If so, why did the Bible and the Quran need to get revealed if the Torah was still intact, and when was the Torah actually changed?

Thanks in advance

[Hamzeh]

Asalamu Alykum Mia

I don't think that any protection or corruption to the Torah or Bible has anything to do with the revelation of the Quran. Also you asked a similar question but not exactly before on this thread. Maybe the answer that was given to you last time[1] might also suffice and the verse below. Also see the articles below.

5:48. And We have revealed to you the Book with the truth, verifying what is before it of the Book and a guardian over it, therefore judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and do not follow their low desires (to turn away) from the truth that has come to you; for every one of you did We appoint a law and a way, and if Allah had pleased He would have made you (all) a single people, but that He might try you in what He gave you, therefore strive with one another to hasten to virtuous deeds; to Allah is your return, of all (of you), so He will let you know that in which you differed;

[1]Quran presenting a different Geography for the Exodus
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1736.msg8040#msg8040


'BETWEEN HIS HANDS' OR 'BEFORE IT' (MA BAYNA YADAYHI)
http://quransmessage.com/articles/between%20hands%20or%20before%20it%20FM3.htm

Lambasting the Bible
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=146.0


Are the Previous Scriptures Corrupted or Not - How Do We Interact with it?
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1264.0

If you have some time you may read some of the posts below to get a idea of what I think your getting at

I would read the article below up to the point where bro Joseph replied.
Does each people judge by what they have been given?
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1484.0

4:47 Vs 2:62
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1602.msg7410#msg7410

Hope that helps
Salam

[Hassan A]

Salaam mia,

You asked:

There was an incident in the Quran in which the Jews were told to judge by the Torah, because the Torah contained "the plain word of God." Does this mean that the Torah was intact and uncorrupted at the time of Prophet Muhammad?

I am of the opinion that the Torah (and the Gospel for that matter) were not (fully) corrupt during prophet Muhammad's (pbuh) time. And the evidence for this (as you've alluded to) is the fact that Allah has instructed each religious party to judge by their respect scriptures:

"It was We who revealed the Torah (to Moses): therein (Arabic: Fi-ha) was guidance and light. By its standard have been judged the Jews, by the prophets who bowed (as in Islam) to God's will, by the rabbis and the scholars: for to them was entrusted the protection of God's book, and they were witnesses to it: therefore do not fear mankind, but fear Me, and sell not my verses for a miserable price. If any fails to judge by (the light of) what God has revealed, they are Unbelievers."[Quran 5:44]

"Let the people of the Gospel judge by what God has revealed in it. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what God has revealed, they are those who rebel".[Quran 5:47]

So it would make no sense for Allah to instruct those religious groups to judge by their respected scriptures if, indeed, they were corrupted. But I do acknowledged that their are Quranic verses which allude to partial corruption of God's other scriptures. But I would venture to guess that the corruption being spoken of (with respect to the other scriptures) is verbal corruption and NOT textual corruption. In other words, God's previous scriptures were not corrupted textually whereby mischievous individuals would, among many things, erase some verses, add their own man-made writings into it, etc. But rather, they were corrupted by way of mouth. Meaning mischievous individuals (scholars/learned-men) would decontextualization verses and give false meanings to them so as to mislead the public and bend them to doing their (the mischievous individuals') will. This (understanding/explanation of mine) would explains why, on the one hand, Allah instructs the Jews and Christians to uphold and judge by their given scriptures while, on the other hand, speaking of the partial corruption those scriptures have underwent.


You also asked:

why did the Bible and the Quran need to get revealed if the Torah was still intact

It was never God's will for us all to be one people and practice the same religion, as evident by the following verses:

"To every People have We appointed (different) rites and ceremonies which they must follow: let them not then dispute with thee on the matter, but do invite (them) to thy Lord: for you are assuredly on the right way. If they do wrangle with you, say, "God knows best what it is you are doing. God will judge between you on the Day of Judgment concerning the matters in which you differ."[2:67-69]

"....If God had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He has given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to God; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute” [Quran 5:48]

The scriptures of God (Quran, Bible, Torah) are simply books which God uses to communicate his commandments to us. And sense God has made us different people (religiously speaking), with slightly different rituals and ceremonies, it would be appropriate for God to then sent down (for each religion) its own scripture laying out the rites and ceremonies they are to uphold. Hence why God needed to send the Quran, Bible, and Torah for every member of the Abrahamic religions.


You also asked:

when was the Torah actually changed?

This is a good question, and one which I don't have the answer to. Perhaps other forum members could answer it.

Peace.

[Star]

Thank you for your replies

I agree with your points and I think there may be several reasons they were told to judge by the Torah:

1) It was not fully corrupted at that time.

2) It was assigned to that group of people (the Jews) as their guidance and they weren't required to judge by the Quran.

Hassan, you said:

"
So it would make no sense for Allah to instruct those religious groups to judge by their respected scriptures if, indeed, they were corrupted. But I do acknowledged that their are Quranic verses which allude to partial corruption of God's other scriptures. But I would venture to guess that the corruption being spoken of (with respect to the other scriptures) is verbal corruption and NOT textual corruption. In other words, God's previous scriptures were not corrupted textually whereby mischievous individuals would, among many things, erase some verses, add their own man-made writings into it, etc. But rather, they were corrupted by way of mouth. Meaning mischievous individuals (scholars/learned-men) would decontextualization verses and give false meanings to them so as to mislead the public and bend them to doing their (the mischievous individuals') will. This (understanding/explanation of mine) would explains why, on the one hand, Allah instructs the Jews and Christians to uphold and judge by their given scriptures while, on the other hand, speaking of the partial corruption those scriptures have underwent."

This makes sense. This is one of a few interpretations and I'm not sure which exactly is correct.

Mia

[good logic]

Peace Mia.

GOD was asking the Jews and Christians to judge by " MA ANZALA ALLAH".GOD chooses His words carefully.

If they had writings containing men s words,then GOD was not asking them to judge by what they corrupted!!!

GOD also sent Qoran at that time to  be used as a reference :

5:49
You shall rule among them in accordance with God's revelations to you. Do not follow their wishes, and beware lest they divert you from some of God's revelations to you. If they turn away, then know that God wills to punish them for some of their sins. Indeed, many people are wicked.
وَأَنِ احكُم بَينَهُم بِما أَنزَلَ اللَّهُ وَلا تَتَّبِع أَهواءَهُم وَاحذَرهُم أَن يَفتِنوكَ عَن بَعضِ ما أَنزَلَ اللَّهُ إِلَيكَ فَإِن تَوَلَّوا فَاعلَم أَنَّما يُريدُ اللَّهُ أَن يُصيبَهُم بِبَعضِ ذُنوبِهِم وَإِنَّ كَثيرًا مِنَ النّاسِ لَفٰسِقونَ

GOD was simply saying to them follow GOD Swords only, do not follow men s words.

GOD was warning them about making up their own words/laws to follow/ judge by!:

5:50
Is it the law of the days of ignorance that they seek to uphold? Whose law is better than God's for those who have attained certainty?
أَفَحُكمَ الجٰهِلِيَّةِ يَبغونَ وَمَن أَحسَنُ مِنَ اللَّهِ حُكمًا لِقَومٍ يوقِنونَ

GOD bless you.
Peace.

[Star]

Salam Good Logic,

You made a good point. Personally, I believe it's unclear what the state of the Torah was at that time, although I'm inclined to believe it was mostly intact, because God wouldn't tell people to judge by corrupted scriptures.